What is a better name for these type of genetics??

[MJPassion]

Hrmmmm, interesting proposal, yet not quite there. Though it deals with red response and flowering, I'm not sure it is responsible for dark hours.

The name shouldn't have anything to do with where people live. It's not an auto, it's not a semi-auto. It definitely doesn't need to be confused with existing 'early' offerings.

Yes, short/long, day/night, it's all very confusing to new people. I'm ok with that, since it will eventually become common knowledge in the community.


Anyone happen to know if these genetics require fewer dark hours because they produce more flowering hormone, or is it because they require less flowering hormone present?

Dig a lil deeper concerning phytochrome.

 

[MJPassion]

Ok...

I don't mean to be a humbug but...

Please explain what would be practical about such a trait being locked into a seedline?
I just don't see it.
If there's no purpose for the trait it doesn't really need defined, as suggested.

Why in the hell would anybody want to run their lights for 20+hours just to maintain a veg cycle?
These types are undesirable, imo, & WILL seemingly auto flower under a normal veg schedule w a dark period & under a gas lamp schedule.

 

[metsäkana]

outdoor north there is already +18hours daylight in may i think july it start to go under 18hours about and between it can rise up to 24hours so its beneficial for me outdoor

veg them first 1-2months indoor on 21hours cycle =) root stress can show if its male of female but did not happen me much this spring only one did that and it have some autogenes on that line and it was male

and really fast male maybe it root stressed it to ''flower'' or it was auto..

most of i can veg without showing sex for month easy i have not tried so long becouse small pots..

autos i veg only to first 2 or 4 pair of leaves i think 4 is too much if its picky and root hit the bottom of pot it start to flower lol

fastest phenos might even flower at 19hours daylight lol

on midsummer its 20-22 hours daylight on south and 24 on north finland

i think the terms should discribe it hole world not just latitudes that dont have as much daylight

i do some exprimenting next spring i put couple on 10-20litre pots and veg them like 2-3months before putting outside? then they veg like 2-3indoor and 1-2months outdoor? sure not auto then xD

for sure they are not maybe beneficial for all but short northern summers or high altitude growing might be perfectooo or if you want crop middle summer somewhere it start flower when you put it outside becouse lack of daylight hours lol

 

[c00k1eFunk]

like metsäkana said, there are not only growers in sunny California. He has his 20h light schedules, i have my 16h schedules and 1billion people in between our latitudes would love to have 17-18h strains!
12/12 for ID screws up genetic for OD people now we have to finde those few strains having desirable traits(for us desirable)
thanks to esbe from HFH i think i got what i was looking for a long time.. 3 super fast photoperiod males to experiment with!

is male pollen illegal?

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Very good points.

So 4D? Kinda catchy, though I'm not looking for catchy. lol Just need a specific designation, free from confusion.

 

[Natural high]

I feel like the name should include short night time, or some variation. The extremely short dark period is really it's entire claim to fame.

Yes but it might be best to adhere to commonly accepted descriptors of the plant flowering cycle. ultra sensitive short day or ultra sensitive photoperiod are accurate in this respect.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

It's not the 'day' portion of the light cycle we're talking about. We're talking about the significantly shorter night period required for flowering. The 'day' can be whatever it likes (within reason), it'll flower with 4hrs of 'dark.'

Yes, it's a photosensitive plant. Again, we're focusing on the plant reaction to an absence of photons.

 

[offthehook]

@Wildkender

'Semi Auto Flowering' is a worthless term that's misleading as fuck. Only to be used by breeders, not by seed vendors supposedly selling *strains* ^^

Now if ya have a 'strain' ehm ehm, that kicks out 25% auto's and 75% earlies or vice versa, then people will still call it 'Semi', even though tecnically spoken it should be 50% then.

Point is, seed vendors don't want to sell their product under the name: 'Unfinnished' product, or 'strain still in progress', so they end up calling it * Semi auto's *

So long it is not a pure auto OR a pure early, it is not even possible to call it a 'strain' at all.

Quote Wildkender: "These very early strains are called semi-autoflowering strains".

That some crappy determination right there. > It is possible to make a photo earlier by using auto genes yes, but only to the point until they become true auto's. (These type of plants are pretty crappy for the production factor though > Since they carry the budding power from the auto while having the vegetitative life performance of the photo.

Very early strains that do not carry the auto gene are much more sought after > Since they keep having the life cycle performance of a photo, AND the budding power of a photo.

Now if you were to call the latter type of plant 'Semi auto flowering' only because they are ' as you say ' very early strains' Then You and I are going to need to have a chat again on this topic.

It would be an insult to the actual plants genetical make up, and as such, it does not deserve to be called a 'semi auto'

Long story short: Vendors happen to be misleading. > Shit happens. People get fucked over.

 

[offthehook]

Yes but it might be best to adhere to commonly accepted descriptors of the plant flowering cycle. ultra sensitive short day or ultra sensitive photoperiod are accurate in this respect.

There's also 'photoperiod' behaving plants that will shoot into flower under 24 hours of daylight after only 3 or 4 weeks of vegetative state.

So no, therefore it is not accurate to call them Ultra sensitive photo periods either, but on a way they are. Can't beat the paradox in this one.

There's only Auto and Early.

Auto has a built-in hormonal timer

Early's hormones respond to dark, or then again not, but most of all, they don't have the built in timer.

They flower when they are ready to bloom, some determined by dark, some, only because it's a good time to bloom asap.

For the latter ones: During good temps they will bloom during week 3 or 4, and when temps are shitty way off, then they'll bloom a couple of weeks later.

 

[MJPassion]

How many of these early types start flowering because they became root bound?
Sweet Tooth & some of it's progeny are notorious for flowering upon becoming root bound!

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

How many of these early types start flowering because they became root bound?
Sweet Tooth & some of it's progeny are notorious for flowering upon becoming root bound!

Not the ones I'm working with, I assure you. I veg under 22/2 lighting for at least 5 months, in the same small (4" or less) pots without trimming roots. This is the first elimination round for selecting the 4D genetics. They're severely root bound and zero flowering.

Anything flowering during this veg time is tossed as "auto" genetics, whether it's from being root bound or simply being an auto.
Save

 

[metsäkana]

http://www.plantcell.org/content/14/suppl_1/S111.full

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

https://www.plantcell.org/content/14/suppl_1/S111.full

When translated to plain english, this says my feet stink? lol

Seriously though, great paper and it's going to take me a while to get through it. Greatly appreciated.

 

[metsäkana]

what d hahaha

 

[metsäkana]

also if the plant wont reveg when transfered to bigger rootspace and start to push start buds indoors and flower from rootstress even if the light cycle is 21-24 hours daylight

i would call it rootstress auto.. not timed auto,,,, not sure if some just take more root bounding before flowering or

those i would not call semi-auto or photosensitive or early .. if they dont reveg they are full autos

and if they get big i call them BIG AUTOS if they are medium size i call them MED AUTOS if they small as fuk i call them mini autos


this year i vegged some hfh beans too long and when taken outdoor they just keep pushing buds on small size so i take some are autoflowers not sure if everyone of them is like that and cant be revegged

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Interesting


I'll have to pay attention to that this year and see if what I'm working with has the root bound gene.

 

[metsäkana]

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=7098007&postcount=56



''Ed Rosenthal [pH:This chapter has 21 pages of charts and diagrams that I did not enter, that are very informative and highly useful. If you want them, buy the book.]

In Part 25 (Flowering), marijuana's photoperiod response was described. Most varieties of cannabis flower in response to changes in the light cycle. This is a foolproof method for a plant to determine when to flower when it is adapted to a particular location. Every year the ratio of dark to light remains the same at a particular date. Scientists think that plants measure the number of hours of darkness by producing a hormone, tentatively named florigen. This hormone has not actually been discovered. The theory is that when the level of this hormone reaches a critical level, the plant goes into its reproductive mode.

Through simple experimentation, we know some interesting things about this plant response. It is a localized response by the plant. This was discovered by shading one branch of a plant but leaving the rest of it without a daily dark period. Only the branch that was shaded flowered. (This is a viable technique to use to sex plants).

Researchers think thatthe hormone is produced by the plant continuously. However, it is destroyed or metabolized by an enzyme or hormone which is produced only in the presence of light. Under natural conditions, the critical level builds up only with the onset of long nights in the autumn. When the dark cycle is interrupted by light, even for a few minutes or less, the florigen is destroyed by the plant and the plant starts the buildup to the critical level over again.

The response to different light cycles is a graduated one. Plants that initiate flowering at one light/darkness routine flower more heavily when the amount of darkness is increased. This response is more pronounced on plants originating from a higher latitude where the light cycle changes more.

Chrysanthemums are also long night-flowering plants, and their growth patterns have been studied extensively for use by the greenhouse industry. Researchers found that the largest flowers with the highest total weight were grown when the dark cycle routine was provided each night. When the plants were shaded 6 nights a week, there was a slight diminution of flower size and total weight. With each additional unshaded night, flower size and weight dropped.

Cannabis is one of the most widespread plants. It is naturalized everywhere from the equator to the arctic. (Private cannabis gardens have also been documented as being grown by scientists stationed at outposts in the Antarctic - it's not illegal there since no country has sovreignty). The plant has developed many variations on the photoperiod response to adjust to different climactic and latitudinal conditions.

Female plants from equatorial or sub-equatorial zones such as Colombia, southern Mexico, central Africa, and south India are absolute photo-determinate (APD). These plants are acclimated to latitudes in which there is little variation in the light cycle throughout the year. As long as the dark period falls below a minimum trigger period, the plant remains in the vegetative growth cycle. This can go on for years under continuous light conditions. When the dark period lengthens to a trigger point, the plant changes its growth pattern to sexual development. If the dark period falls below the trigger level when the plants are flowering, the plants easily revert back to vegetative growth.

APD plants are good candidates to flower and regenerate. Since they respond to the light cycle in a relatively simple way, irregular or interrupted cycles alter growth significantly. Buds are smaller, leafier, fluffier, looser, and may run. They look a bit like low-light flowers.

Flower size can be increased by allowing the plants to ripen fully, then placing them in a continuous light regimen for a few days. Flowering is triggers again and the plants produce new clusters of flowers.

Some cannabis varieties are "relative photoperiod determinate" (RPD). These plants have a trigger that they respond to under normal growing conditions, but when they receive an unusual light regimen, they respond to the change in the light conditions in unusual ways. For example, an early flowering indica normally triggers at 10 hours of darkness, but if it is grown under continuous light and then the darkness cycle is increased to 8 hours, the plant triggers. Once these plants are triggered, the light cycle has less affect upon them than upon the APDs. The developing flowers are not as sensitive to occasional interruption of the darkness cycle.

RPD varieties include the mid- and high-range latitude-adapted plants including Moroccans and southern Africans, early indicas, commercial hemp and hybrids developed for early harvest (September or earlier).

RPD varieties are harder to manipulate using the light cycle. Plants placed into flowering do not revert to vegetative growth as easily as APD varieties. The plants are harder to regenerate. Light stress promotes hermaphroditism in these varieties. They are harder to clone; they take longer and have a lower success rate.

Most males and some extreme northern varieties including the ruderalis strains fall into a third category which is not photosensitive at all. Both age and development seem to play a role in determining when these plants flower. For example, a Hungarian ruderalis developed flowers under continuous light after 8 weeks. Most varieties of males indicate under continuous light after 3-9 months. Thais and some equatorial sativa males are exceptions and will not flower until the dark period is increased. Under 18 hours of light, males indicate sooner than under continuous light.

Cold may hasten sexual expression but not flower development of some northern varieties.

Some varieties, especially indicas, respond to unnatural light cycles by showing photo-period response disorder. Genetic females turn hermaphroditic when exposed to long dark periods during early growth.''

 

[MJPassion]

Phytochrome...

 

[therevverend]

What about the idea of feeding P and K to induce flowering?

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Thank you [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]metsäkana, that was a great read with some information I had not read before. [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]MJPassion, phytochrome is the light absorbing protein I haven't even begun to study. lol
[/FONT]

What about the idea of feeding P and K to induce flowering?

That's something I've not read about before, the P/K has always been something added to boost flowering. Would you happen to have a reference, or an idea of where you heard/read it?