What are the origins of Jamaican marijuana?

[thandee]

I read somewhere that coca leaves were found in vessels in the tombs of the pharaohs. Coca is from South America so maybe trade was taking place way before Columbus came to America

There is a chance that this coca leaves were not coca leaves.....
There in Arab countries they use to chew KAT....
The leaves look a lot like coca leaves....
Its endogenous plant from ever in Arab countries like Afghanistan,Iran and others!.....
Its a hard drug....the effect is a combination of cocaine and heroin....in some countries the extract called Speeddball....
Arab people chew the leaves all day!
They are addicted to this drug....
And someone who use it dont use opium or cannabis!...
There are lots of videos on net with afghan people use KAT and being totally stoned to the bone!

 

[Water-]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IY0O0SxepY

This is great song "Bird in Hand"

Lee Scratch Perry Version and also the original Indian version.

Its an great example of how Indian culture contributed to Jamaican culture.

 

[Water-]

Columbus start thing is just a mistake by our Christian Judeo paradigm, old civilisations like Armorica or Vikings know America and from a very long time! So they necessarily brought cannabis seeds with them because of its importance to them. And it's without considering the AmerIndian lond history in itself by the Bering Strait! Cannabis was in America before the year zero no doubt! You just have to find the evidence that certainly exists somewhere but I do not think that really interests the intelligence of current historians pro Cristian Judéo! It would upset the consciences too much aha!

For the Jamaican rasta ganja yes, Indian sadduh cultural origins, and logically via Ethiopia! Perso i felt this evidence by growing and smoking the Kerala genetics!

I agree.

Absence of evidence is not all ways evidence of absence

 

[TanzanianMagic]

I'm trying to find actual written proof of what you say here, especially the part about columbus, I can't find any mention of the quote attributed to him.

https://blog.swaliafrica.com/did-africans-discover-the-americas-before-europeans/

”According to the abstract of Columbus’s log made by Bartolomé de las Casas, the purpose of Columbus’s third voyage was to test both the claims of King John II of Portugal that “canoes had been found which set out from the coast of Guinea [West Africa] and sailed to the west with merchandise” as well as the claims of the native inhabitants of Hispaniola that “from the south and the southeast had come black people whose spears were made of a metal called guanín…from which it was found that of 32 parts: 18 were gold, 6 were silver, and 8 copper.”​

I don't have a copy of Leo Wiener's Africa and the Discovery of America, 1922. However a copy can be downloaded here:

https://archive.org/details/africadiscoveryo02wienrich

Also, as an aside - there are many accounts of people making it across the Atlantic in the modern era too.

Pensioner, 70, paddles across Atlantic Ocean in kayak for the third time
SEAN MORRISON
Monday 4 September 2017 16:47

Aleksander Doba, 70, completed his transatlantic journey on Sunday after setting off on the epic quest from New Jersey in May.
Mr Doba, from Poland, came ashore at Le Conquet, Brittany, which is on the coast of north-west France.
It comes after he became the first person to paddle across the Atlantic in a kayak on muscle-power alone in 2010 from Senegal to Brazil.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/wor...n-in-a-kayak-for-the-third-time-a3626671.html​

There was a story of Angolan fishermen who ran out of fuel and went adrift in the Atlantic and ended up in Brazil - most likely on the Southern Equatorial Current in the Atlantic.

Also, crossing on a raft from the Canary Islands off Morocco to the Bahamas, in a 70 day journey.

An-Tiki

On January 30, 2011, An-Tiki, a raft modeled after Kon-Tiki, began a 4,800-kilometre (3,000 mi), 70-day journey across the Atlantic Ocean from the Canary Islands to the island of Eleuthera in the Bahamas.[24] The expedition was piloted by four men, aged from 56 to 84 years, led by Anthony Smith.[25] The trip was designed to commemorate the journey in an open boat of survivors from the British steamship Anglo-Saxon, sunk by the German cruiser Widder in 1940. The raft ended its voyage in the Caribbean island of St Maarten, completing its trip to Eleuthera in the following year with Smith and a new crew.[26][27]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki_expedition#An-Tiki​

 

[burningfire]

dude, you should look up the conditions on slave ships.

it was horrific.

captured and inprisoned in africa and chained together.

then sold to a slave ship and

packed liked sardines in a tin and
made to live in their own piss and shit.

they didn't get a choice so no one had to convince them to come.

Yes, I said as much but I tried to imagine how they could have brought seeds, I shouldn't have said that most of them were promised a better future.. but I still stand that a lot of slaves were not taken by force but rather sold a better future in a new world... as is done with present time slavery/human trafficking


Obviously plenty of them were just rounded up and chained right then and there.

 

[burningfire]

https://blog.swaliafrica.com/did-africans-discover-the-americas-before-europeans/

”According to the abstract of Columbus’s log made by Bartolomé de las Casas, the purpose of Columbus’s third voyage was to test both the claims of King John II of Portugal that “canoes had been found which set out from the coast of Guinea [West Africa] and sailed to the west with merchandise” as well as the claims of the native inhabitants of Hispaniola that “from the south and the southeast had come black people whose spears were made of a metal called guanín…from which it was found that of 32 parts: 18 were gold, 6 were silver, and 8 copper.”​

I don't have a copy of Leo Wiener's Africa and the Discovery of America, 1922. However a copy can be downloaded here:

https://archive.org/details/africadiscoveryo02wienrich

Also, as an aside - there are many accounts of people making it across the Atlantic in the modern era too.

Pensioner, 70, paddles across Atlantic Ocean in kayak for the third time
SEAN MORRISON
Monday 4 September 2017 16:47

Aleksander Doba, 70, completed his transatlantic journey on Sunday after setting off on the epic quest from New Jersey in May.
Mr Doba, from Poland, came ashore at Le Conquet, Brittany, which is on the coast of north-west France.
It comes after he became the first person to paddle across the Atlantic in a kayak on muscle-power alone in 2010 from Senegal to Brazil.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/wor...n-in-a-kayak-for-the-third-time-a3626671.html​

There was a story of Angolan fishermen who ran out of fuel and went adrift in the Atlantic and ended up in Brazil - most likely on the Southern Equatorial Current in the Atlantic.

Also, crossing on a raft from the Canary Islands off Morocco to the Bahamas, in a 70 day journey.

An-Tiki

On January 30, 2011, An-Tiki, a raft modeled after Kon-Tiki, began a 4,800-kilometre (3,000 mi), 70-day journey across the Atlantic Ocean from the Canary Islands to the island of Eleuthera in the Bahamas.[24] The expedition was piloted by four men, aged from 56 to 84 years, led by Anthony Smith.[25] The trip was designed to commemorate the journey in an open boat of survivors from the British steamship Anglo-Saxon, sunk by the German cruiser Widder in 1940. The raft ended its voyage in the Caribbean island of St Maarten, completing its trip to Eleuthera in the following year with Smith and a new crew.[26][27]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kon-Tiki_expedition#An-Tiki​

Thank you, I was struggling to find actual evidence of what columbus said.



It was certainly possible, I remember reading about Thor Heyerdahl's voyage in 1947.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor_Heyerdahl


It's absolutely possible there were earlier visitors.. and we now know for a fact that columbus wasn't the actual first person to reach the continent by boat.



but as it pertains to cannabis I don't think there's any evidence of it's presence before the europeans came to the continent.

 

[Water-]

it takes three months to drift from the Canaries to the Carribean.

I think that it is impossible for people not to have been traveling across the Atlantic or Pacific for many thousand of years.

The sailing ability was there and the currents run in a circle around the oceans that allow for circumnavigation if you just keep fishing and following the currents

 

[Dr.Young]

Everything originated from India.... Sativa is basically all Indian\SE Asian... Indica is basically Afghan... Apparently the terms are even being changed and.... Sativa is just a european area hemp.... What we call Sativa is actually indica, and what we call indica is a subset that later arrived in Afghanistan. It all started with the tropical Narrow leaf, and later adapted to low humidity\lower light into broad leaf.

Kinda like white, and black... Plus all the inbetween...All started with the black then acclimatized into white. Same Dna different expressions arose according to environment\breeding mixtures.

 

[GoatCheese]

Columbus start thing is just a mistake by our Christian Judeo paradigm, old civilisations like Armorica or Vikings know America and from a very long time! So they necessarily brought cannabis seeds with them because of its importance to them. And it's without considering the AmerIndian lond history in itself by the Bering Strait! Cannabis was in America before the year zero no doubt! You just have to find the evidence that certainly exists somewhere but I do not think that really interests the intelligence of current historians pro Cristian Judéo! It would upset the consciences too much aha!

[FONT=&quot]Hey Roms.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I doubt that hemp/cannabis played a huge role to Vikings. There has apparently been some hemp/cannabis cultivation in southern Norway at some point, but you have to understand that not every Norwegian was a viking.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Vikings were sea men and traders, but those who lived inlands were not vikings. The word viking comes from the word "vik", meaning bay; "viking" = to sail across/around the bay, basically.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Here's one article covering the topic of hemp cultivation/usage in Norway.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]https://www.vindheim.net/hamp/hemp.html [/FONT]

In the article there's a story about the Oseberg Queen and it's told there was cannabis seeds among the burial goods
..but only four seeds. According to Wikipedia there was also imported silk among the burial goods, so to me it's likely, cause there was apparently only four cannabis seeds, that those were also imports.

There's also a quote from a Norwegian fisherman about hemp thread from 1977

" Until the end of the last century lines and nets were made from hemp. Cotton came into use around the turn of the century. I guess the cotton was not asstrong as the hemp, but it was a little cheaper. ... The hemp mostly came from Russia and Italy, and I believe the Italian was considered finer and smoother than the Russian. Until around 1880 it was usual to spin hemp-yarn in the household."

To me, because he talks about hemp being imported mainly from Russia and Italy, it suggests there wasn't wide cultivation of hemp in Norway and so i doubt hemp/cannabis played a huge role in the lives of pre-Columbus Vikings.

[FONT=&quot]About the land bridge from Siberia to Alaska.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Bering land bridge was usable to people at the time of last ice age 100 000 bc to 15 000bc or something like that. Thou there was a land bridge there, you have to remember that a large part of the North was covered by the polar ice cap, so the climate was also quite cold up North,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]..so is it even possible to cultivate cannabis in those regions and keep the cannabis populations going by the people at the time? [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I have my doubts. I live in the North/Scandinavia and i happen to know how short our summers/growing seasons are.[/FONT]


[FONT=&quot]According to Phylos, the samples they have from Central American cannabis they're mostly related to Thai and Keralan cannabis. I'm sure Sam has researched this topic quite abit and until there's is any evidence of pre-European colonialist cannabis in Americas, it's only speculation. So let's see the evidence.[/FONT]

I agree.

Absence of evidence is not all ways evidence of absence

Yea but it can be.


Peace

 

[TanzanianMagic]

On the quote from Leo Wiener:

Source: Africa and the Discovery of America, page 117, by Leo Wiener, available here:

https://archive.org/stream/africadiscoveryo02wienrich#page/116/mode/2up/search/guanin

"and that he thought to investigate the report of the indians of this Española from the south and south-east, a black people who have the tops of their spears made from a metal they call 'guanin', of which they had sent samples to the Sovereigns to have them assayed, when it was found that of 32 parts, 18 were of gold, 6 of silver and 8 of copper."​

The quotation is from: J.B. Thatcher, Christopher Columbus, vol II, 1903, (ibid) page 380.

There seem to be several translations of Christopher Columbus' works.

 

[Dr.Young]

Goat... Its common sense hemp played a huge role to the vikings... considering their sails, rope, and boats were held together by hemp\flax.

 

[GoatCheese]

Goat... Its common sense hemp played a huge role to the vikings... considering their sails, rope, and boats were held together by hemp\flax.

I doubt their ships were held together with hemp. Sails were many times made out of wool apparently. I'm reffering to pre-Columbus era, later i'm sure hemp played a bigger part in Scandinavia.


It's not a matter of what us modern humans think as common sense, but the facts of the matterduring those times

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

If you think that Cannabis was around pre-Columbus in the Americas where is a single example of a 600 year old Cannabis seed, pollen, stem or fiber found in Americas and dated as pre Columbian? There are not any.
This is an incredibly useful plant, Medicine, Food, Fibers, as well as Recreationally desirable by people. If it was in the Americas they would have used it. Everywhere Cannabis use is endemic there are remains to be found. If Cannabis was in the Americas it would have been used and shared, but no evidence of this.

Until I see a single Pre Columbian Cannabis sample found in the Americas I have trouble presuming it was there.

Faith it was, is not the same as scientific evidence Cannabis was in the Americas before 1492.

I know Kerala genetics it was me that first offered Kerala seeds to the public from seeds I had collected in 1975 in Munnar in the mountains in Kerala.
Great Cannabis almost seedless and beautiful NLD Indica, yes a narrow leaf Indica. From the farmers I paid $3.50 a kilo for some of the best Cannabis I ever saw.
I ground up the buds for seed extraction, maybe 5-10 seeds per KG of buds. I kept the seeds and turned the 20 kg of Cannabis minus the seeds to my guide who had taken me around to the farms.
I did smoke as much as I could, but I was there for seeds.

-SamS

Columbus start thing is just a mistake by our Christian Judeo paradigm, old civilisations like Armorica or Vikings know America and from a very long time! So they necessarily brought cannabis seeds with them because of its importance to them. And it's without considering the AmerIndian lond history in itself by the Bering Strait! Cannabis was in America before the year zero no doubt! You just have to find the evidence that certainly exists somewhere but I do not think that really interests the intelligence of current historians pro Cristian Judéo! It would upset the consciences too much aha!

For the Jamaican rasta ganja yes, Indian sadduh cultural origins, and logically via Ethiopia! Perso i felt this evidence by growing and smoking the Kerala genetics!

 

[herbgreen]

Do you think jamaician may have come from africa via colombia? or mexico?

And how did ganja get to south india? through thailand and china?

How long do you think it would take to select from hemp type to get to NLD ?

Could that be the origins of some these old sativa NLD?

It would be an interesting breeding challenge

 

[therevverend]

I know it sounds weird but Scandinavian ships were held together by hemp caulking. Quote Robert C Clarke and Mark D Merlin's book Cannabis: Evolution and Ethnobotany which also contains a note about the wool sails:

"This suggests that Viking and other early sailors in the region known as Scandinavia were familiar with the strength, suppleness, and water resistant qualities of hemp cordage and used it to stich and caulk hulls and lash their boats together, as well as for rigging, anchor cables, and fishing lines and nets and used hemp cloth to make their sails. Although wool was the fiber of choice for making sails in much of Scandinavia before historical times, unmistakable remains of 'linen or hemp sails are known from a 64 gun Swedish warship sunk in Stockholm in 1628.'
Wool was the sail of choice because it could outperform hemp sails but it was much heavier. Maybe hemp was cheaper? Viking outposts in England produced lots of hemp and by at least 1000 CE they were growing lots of it in Scandinavia.
Hempen textiles have been recovered from Viking archeological digs along with fabrics made from wool, flax, and nettles. In a burial site a garment including a trimming strip of beaver fur lined with hemp was found on the body of a woman laid to rest in an early ninth century grave.
In the present fishermen along the Mekong River in Laos pound hemp into the cracks between planks of wooden boats so they don't leak. (I've seen a picture) It's been used since the first plank ships were built in the 1st century BCE.
As far as hemp in the new world, no. Cannabis was not introduced until after Columbus. In places where hemp grows there are records of pollen at the bottom of lakes. So they can trace the movement of cannabis cultures across Europe, Asia, and Africa. None has ever been found in the Western Hemisphere.
Before Columbus the Western Hemisphere wasn't a wilderness untouched by the hand of man. This is a misconception taught in schools by the invaders. If there was a patch of ferns, berries, medicinal plants, nut trees, it wasn't by chance. The natives exploited the land the same as westerners do. They bred and planted crops and animals, trapped fish and animals, overr 10,000 years they adapted the land for their use. All the bounty wasn't sitting there waiting for someone to come along, build a fence and charge admission. People's survival depended on it.
Many crops were bred and adapted for people's use. Corn, tobacco, potatoes, beans, peppers, spread across North and South America as farmers spread their seed.
Cannabis is perhaps the most useful crop ever modified for human use. It would be found everywhere in the New World from Alaska to Patagonia if it had been available. It's absence is conspicuous.

 

[Elmer Bud]

Everything originated from India.... Sativa is basically all Indian\SE Asian... Indica is basically Afghan... Apparently the terms are even being changed and.... Sativa is just a european area hemp.... What we call Sativa is actually indica, and what we call indica is a subset that later arrived in Afghanistan. It all started with the tropical Narrow leaf, and later adapted to low humidity\lower light into broad leaf.

Kinda like white, and black... Plus all the inbetween...All started with the black then acclimatized into white. Same Dna different expressions arose according to environment\breeding mixtures.

G `day Dr Y

Under British rule " India " stretched from The borders with Iran to the border with Thailand . Encompassing Afghanistan , Pakistan , modern India , Bangladesh ,Burma and Malaysia .

I personally think it came from Sth China .

Thanks for sharin

EB .

 

[Elmer Bud]

Do you think jamaician may have come from africa via colombia? or mexico?

And how did ganja get to south india? through thailand and china?

How long do you think it would take to select from hemp type to get to NLD ?

Could that be the origins of some these old sativa NLD?

It would be an interesting breeding challenge

G `day H

Out in eastern Thailand and Nth Cambodia there are ancient Hindu temples .
The Khmers were all across Cambodia and Thailand . Right up to the border with Burma .

The Thai strand of Buddhism comes from Sth India and Sri Lanka
So Indian culture has been in Thailand a very long time .

The word for an Indian in Thai is the same as guest .

Another thing I noticed . Nth India = charas . Sth India = ganja . No hash in Thailand .

@ Sam
Did you see a relation between Sth Indian ganja and Thai kancha ?

Thanks for sharin

EB . .

 

[Water-]

If you think that Cannabis was around pre-Columbus in the Americas where is a single example of a 600 year old Cannabis seed, pollen, stem or fiber found in Americas and dated as pre Columbian? There are not any.
This is an incredibly useful plant, Medicine, Food, Fibers, as well as Recreationally desirable by people. If it was in the Americas they would have used it. Everywhere Cannabis use is endemic there are remains to be found. If Cannabis was in the Americas it would have been used and shared, but no evidence of this.

Until I see a single Pre Columbian Cannabis sample found in the Americas I have trouble presuming it was there.

Faith it was, is not the same as scientific evidence Cannabis was in the Americas before 1492.

I know Kerala genetics it was me that first offered Kerala seeds to the public from seeds I had collected in 1975 in Munnar in the mountains in Kerala.
Great Cannabis almost seedless and beautiful NLD Indica, yes a narrow leaf Indica. From the farmers I paid $3.50 a kilo for some of the best Cannabis I ever saw.
I ground up the buds for seed extraction, maybe 5-10 seeds per KG of buds. I kept the seeds and turned the 20 kg of Cannabis minus the seeds to my guide who had taken me around to the farms.
I did smoke as much as I could, but I was there for seeds.

-SamS

What do you think of the Cocaine mummies?

Contaminated evidence or sign of contact?

I'm not convinced either way.


But if they are real than that is evidence of cross Atlantic drug/spice trade that may only have been in very small quantities. And almost impossible to find in the archaeological record.

Having sailed the Atlantic both ways in a somewhat small boat, I dont see it as implausable that some Hash or seeds came to the Americas before 1492

 

[Elmer Bud]

 

[The Joker1]

We should all be educated in the history of our collective non virtue and it’s results. The Africans brought here were brutally kidnapped as part of a industrial world wide slave trade. None of them got on a ship volunteer. You will not find a single record of Africans being tricked to get on a boat.

The Chinese were tricked with promises of a better life to work building the rail roads.

“The transatlantic slave trade resulted in a vast and as yet still unknown loss of life for African captives both in and outside America. Approximately 1.2 – 2.4 million Africans died during their transport to the New World.[67] More died soon upon their arrival. The number of lives lost in the procurement of slaves remains a mystery but may equal or exceed the number who survived to be enslaved.[68]

The savage nature of the trade led to the destruction of individuals and cultures. The following figures do not include deaths of enslaved Africans as a result of their labour, slave revolts, or diseases suffered while living among New World populations.

Historian Ana Lucia Araujo has noted that the process of enslavement did not end with arrival on the American shores; the different paths taken by the individuals and groups who were victims of the Atlantic slave trade were influenced by different factors—including the disembarking region, the kind of work performed, gender, age, religion, and language.[69]

Estimates by Patrick Manning are that about 12 million slaves entered the Atlantic trade between the 16th and 19th century, but about 1.5 million died on board ship. About 10.5 million slaves arrived in the Americas. Besides the slaves who died on the Middle Passage, more Africans likely died during the slave raids in Africa and forced marches to ports. Manning estimates that 4 million died inside Africa after capture, and many more died young. Manning's estimate covers the 12 million who were originally destined for the Atlantic, as well as the 6 million destined for Asian slave markets and the 8 million destined for African markets.[70] Of the slaves shipped to The Americas, the largest share went to Brazil and the Caribbean.[71]”

African conflicts

Jamaican was from India and Africa there was no Cannabis in the Americas pre 1492, it all came from elsewhere.

We will never find out as all the Cannabis in Jamaica is now hybrids of local Jamaican from Africa or India and WLD's from Westerners that brought INDICA. Good luck to find any pure Jamaican landraces, they are all hybrids today.

-SamS

Yes, I said as much but I tried to imagine how they could have brought seeds, I shouldn't have said that most of them were promised a better future.. but I still stand that a lot of slaves were not taken by force but rather sold a better future in a new world... as is done with present time slavery/human trafficking


Obviously plenty of them were just rounded up and chained right then and there.