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what are my plants missing? (whiteberry and opium)

tree&leaf

Member
It's really hard to see from the pictures what's happening, but if your description is correct and the leaves are paling round the edges, then that strongly suggests Potassium is getting locked out.

Magnesium affected leaves yellow from the tips inwards towards the centre of the leaf, then turn necrotic at the tips, they don't yellow round the edges. That you used plenty of Dolomite lime in the potting mix also supports the view that it isn't Mg.

A lot depends on how long they've been in those pots/soil and how much mineral/chemical nutrients you've been feeding them, you've probably got a light salt build up in your soil, that's beginning to lock out Potassium.

I wouldn't flush them though and I wouldn't bother with changing the water ph either, that lime in the soil is more than enough to buffer the ph to an acceptable level, a ph of 7.5 is not enough to cause nutrient lock outs, but high soil salinity is.

I would simply feed them plain tap water with say 10-20% run off for the next couple of waterings and then start a light feeding of a standard 'grow' nutrient, with none of the other additions you're using until they're stabilised.

I've also noticed you have your plant pots in saucers, make sure the plants don't suck up any watering run off, (ie don't let them stand in that run off) because they'll be sucking back those dissolved salts. When you water them, throw away the run off, don't allow them to suck it back into the soil medium.

Expect them to get a little worse before they get better though, as the plain waterings will remove some of the plant nutrients from the soil as well as the dissolved salts.
 

mixin

Member
ok. i have let those plants sit in a little runoff and let it evaporate naturally

i didn't think that little amount would hurt them but if thats the case then i will start doing it that way.

i wish i had an easy way to do get rid of the runoff in my nycd grow. i have them all tied up, tied down, tied together.... just to control them. i need a way to siphon all that excess water in an easy way
 

tree&leaf

Member
Mixin

It could well explain why you've got a salt build up problem when you haven't really been feeding them that much mineral/chemical salt fertilisers, if the plant has been sucking up the salts washed out by waterings - this is exactly how salt buildups can occur. Particularly so when you consider the fairly large concentration of roots that accumulate at and around the bottom of the pot.

You shouldn't let them sit in water anyway, Canna does not like its roots to sit in soggy soil and can lead to all sorts of complications and even root rot in really bad cases.

Good luck in sorting it out, your plants look great otherwise.
 

mixin

Member
sirgrassalot said:
I still use a turkey baster, a wet/dry shop vac will do the job.

i just thought of the turkey baster at work today and the idea using a shop vac is great (+rep) i have a mini one somewhere that will be perfect for just that!!!

thanks dude!
 

mixin

Member
i have the opium plant and one of the two whiteberrys both are looking great, nice solid green leaves again. one whiteberry still has yellowing... i am going to flush it even more tonight and then give good nutes and see how it reacts. i am about to pull clones from them and get them ready for a sog. can't wait to see some whiteberry flowering!
 

Patch7

Member
I too much lime was added, you can not flush out lime... Its takes a long time for lime to breakdown. I am in the same situation. My ph is 7.4 in soild. My buddy added too much lime.
 

mixin

Member
there is no way to flush lime? can't you at least counter it with ph'd water that forces it to be lower or higher?
 

Patch7

Member
not really. you can add lower ph's water, but the runoff will still stay high... that is the point of lime, it keeps the soil ph locked in at what was added.
 

Weedninja

Member
tree&leaf said:
Mixin

It could well explain why you've got a salt build up problem when you haven't really been feeding them that much mineral/chemical salt fertilisers, if the plant has been sucking up the salts washed out by waterings - this is exactly how salt buildups can occur. Particularly so when you consider the fairly large concentration of roots that accumulate at and around the bottom of the pot.

You shouldn't let them sit in water anyway, Canna does not like its roots to sit in soggy soil and can lead to all sorts of complications and even root rot in really bad cases.

Good luck in sorting it out, your plants look great otherwise.

I disagree with tree&leaf about your problem being a Potassium issue, but I agree with this^^ statement 100%. You are defeating the benefits of a flush if you allow the soil to reabsorb what you flushed.

It's true that lime is hard to flush if you are using tap water, but RO or distilled water will suck it up pretty quickly.
 

Patch7

Member
Weedninja said:
I disagree with tree&leaf about your problem being a Potassium issue, but I agree with this^^ statement 100%. You are defeating the benefits of a flush if you allow the soil to reabsorb what you flushed.

It's true that lime is hard to flush if you are using tap water, but RO or distilled water will suck it up pretty quickly.


The RO or distilled water does NOT break down lime any faster.. Thats like saying rain water breaksdown more than tap water. Also, the lime company would have to say on the bag, "If using RO or distilled water, this product will break down faster" LOL, not true.
 
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stinkyattic

her dankness
Veteran
Actually, rain is often fairly acidic and WILL use up lime faster. When growing with RO vs. tap water, it is not necessarily that the water itself will suck out the lime faster so much as that the plants are using it [soil lime] at a faster rate since they don't have it available from tap water and are getting ALL of the minerals not supplied in the feed from the soil lime.
 

Patch7

Member
The rain here has a ph of 6.9. The tap water has a ph of 7.0.

I am not really trying to debate the ph quality of rain water versus tap water or reverse osmosis water etc. I am just saying dolomite lime can not be "flushed". It needs to break down. I am in the same situation as my mix was given too much lime accidently. I tried to flush. It doesn't work.
 
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stinkyattic

her dankness
Veteran
It can be removed most easily in one of two ways:
-The plants use it up as a mineral source
-The chemistry of your soil/water uses it up as a neutralizing agent for whatever acidic substances it is exposed to, from peat acids to rain acids to acidic fertilizer components.
The latter is what I'm talking about when I say acid rain can use it up faster. The nitric, sulfuric, and carbonic acids therein will react and break down the limestone faster than a neutral solution. See the decay of ancient limestone ruins for examples.
 

Patch7

Member
I hear what you are saying..... but if this were the case, people would not add dolomite lime to their soil/soilless medium because it would be useless because every watering would break it down and the ph would be all over the place by the end of the grow. This is not the case. I reuse my soilless mix for usually 3 grows and I never re-add dolomite lime. This is why I am having an issue this time. On this grow I had my soilless mix from my previous grow. My friend was getting the soil ready for the kids and he thought he needed to add dolomite lime again for the new batch. He did not tell me this and this is how I now have a locked ph of 7.48. After this grow, this soil will be tossed and my new mix will be used for future grows. The lime can not be flushed out.
 

stinkyattic

her dankness
Veteran
You can use it up though as an acid-neutralizing reagent. Water at a lower pH than you are aiming for and it will react chemically and eventually there will be none left. If your soil pH is above 7, water with a fert solution that is quite low- like 6- and be sure to water to slight runoff. That will gradually drop your soil pH as the lime is used up.
Adding an organic acid supplement to your nutes might be just the ticket in your case- Soil Syrup or Diamond Nectar or another source of humic/fulvic acids. It's not a strong acid, and buffers at a pH in the high 6 range, but actually can counteract high soil alkalinity.
Just some food for thought. Good luck!
 

Weedninja

Member
Patch7 said:
The RO or distilled water does NOT break down lime any faster.. Thats like saying rain water breaksdown more than tap water. Also, the lime company would have to say on the bag, "If using RO or distilled water, this product will break down faster" LOL, not true.

I wasn't claiming that it BREAKS DOWN lime any faster. Madame attic made part of my argument for me(about plants metabolizing the elements that make up lime more quickly when they are absent from the water supply).

Aside from the pH issue, there is also a solubility issue. RO/distilled water is more chemically "pure" and therefore has a much greater ability to absorb ANYTHING that is water soluble. It may not have solved your problem as quickly as you would have liked, but I assure you that it did dissolve some of the excess lime.

Why do you feel that the lime manufacturer would be obligated to label their product?

I also want to add that all three of us are total geeks for having this discussion.

Peace, Wn
 
G

greenhornets

so what you call this symtom . i have the exact same thing going on in rec dwc .
 
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