waterfarm woes

[mage]

Hi

i have a bubbleponics system and my 3 week old plants are wilting. they have no loss in colour (ie no nute deficiencies) and the leaves are not crunchy indicating underwatering.

my specs are as follows
-50Lt res (30% nute str)
-air stones in bottom of pots (where water drains before going to res) and one in res
-20 deg celcius water temp (can cancel out o2 lock out via high temp water)

medium ... rockwool cube in clay pebbles. i pump my water onto the area of cly balls surrounding the rockwool cube to try to not saturate the r/w cube.

light cycle 24/0

water feeding cycle 15 min on 45 min off

sooo my question is, is it possible to over water with bubbleponics & clay balls and if so what is a different water, light, anything that i can inplement to get my plants back on track.

Im hating the trial and error of figuring out water feeding cycles and i know theres a missing link that hopefully some one could help me with

id be very appreciative

im regretting using rockwool ....

 

[durka_durka420]

i bet your not watering enough.....and i never heard of a bubble ponics you mean RDWC which = recirculating deep water culture........we need some pics dude were not magic and can see your plants....

 

[mage]

i'll have some pics up tonight, found my camera chord. I have a diagram of my set up in my grow thread ill post it over here too.

I talked to the dude at the hydro shop today. he thinks it may have to do with me setting my water temp to 30 deg celcius for a min 1 max 2 days when i was getting everything configured. he was saying that i may have pythium from leaving the water temp being up and i should check for brown roots and leave it a week and hope it bounces back.

 

[bendoslendo]

Hey mage, hope you specced for Arcane Brilliance.

This doesn't sound like a bubbleponics/DWC. In these systems roots hang through netpots into a nutrient solution aerated by airstones. If your roots are in the aerated solution, you dont need to be flooding/feeding from the top.

What system are you using? links and pictures would be helpful.

 

[mage]

I will pwn your arcane spec with my frost spec xD hehe

Heres some pics, just had to figure out how to delete the meta data

brb just going to have a quick look at the roots

 

[mage]

yeah roots are clean, white and fury.

i think comes down to a severe cast of newb down syndrome in setting the water temp too high. which basically boiled down to laziness cos walking from the shed to the laptop was too difficult and now im paying the price. any hoo lesson learnt

i had an interesting chat with the hydro shop dude today. i was disscussing how basically the plants use the oxygen to grow thier roots, so if you depriving the roots of oxygen then the plant will severly slow growing and i guess this takes on an effect where it strangles the plant.

so ... in my mind i can think of two ways that you can starve a plant of oxygen in a hydro system, one would be to overwater the plant causing a lack of o2 to get to the roots and the other which is what i think i have done which is deprive the o2 via high temp water.

i found this on the net ...

The oxygen content of a fully aerated solution at 10C (50 F) is about 13ppm, but as the solution warms up to 20 C (68 F) the ability of the liquid to 'hold' oxygen drops to 9 - 10ppm, by the time the solution has reached 30 C (86 F), then it's only 7ppm.

so therefore having the high temp should theoretically have the same effect as overwatering the plants.

SO! since i corrected the water temp issue ... days ago ... how come the plants havnt sprung back into lift?

well the hydro shop dude told me abt pythium which is a form of root rot in your plants where when the water temp is high (usually for days to a week he believes) it somehow rots your roots. well ive checked my roots and they are fine so im going to ask a

NEW QUESTION

how long does it take for plants with o2 deprived roots to recover. im after what has happened in your experiance of having this issue or if you are a pro and know these things. in the mean time i will try to find as much info on the recovery as i can.

thanks for the replies

 

[mage]

i used to have a flood and drain system with pearlite as the medium ... things were so easy back then lol this system is a pain in the ass

 

[FreezerBoy]

I think your first move is to re-title the thread to "Waterfarm Woes" or similar. Because this section has no assigned Mod, you'll need a SuperMod or higher to change the title. Try KharmaGirl or MyAssIsGrass.

While Waterfarms and DWC are similar, they're dissimilar enough that you'll want someone specifically knowledgeable. Because your upper bucket has a bottom on it, air/water bubbles below deliver no water into the upper bucket, top feeding is required. I'd think a drip ring that avoided contact with the rockwool would be better but, that's a guess from a NON Waterfarm user.

At any rate, it's not a matter of overwatering as it is oxygen deprivation. Properly aerated water is what delivers O2

 

[mage]

yeah k ill pive them a msg. thanks for the reply and i will put together a drip ring over the next day or so.

I understand where you're comming from too. I have clay balls which is a medium that doesnt hold water very well and thus needs to be watered often and rockwool which holds water really well and needs to be watered not very often.

... and i combined the two together /facepalm

next time i grow (if i can get this one to work) i will figure out a different method/medium for propergation.

but yeah its all learning i guess

 

[mage]

i PM'd one of the super mods, cheers for giving me the name of the type of hydroponic setup im using. i had no clue, but i guess thats why im posting in new growers

 

[bendoslendo]

Hope it clears up for you in the next few days.

Healthy white fuzzy roots is a good sign. This rules out pythium unless it is localized somewhere you cannot see.

Recovery from over watering should take a day or two. Was the rockwool continuously wet?

Doesn't really look like any over-watering I've seen though, more like under watering actually. I know you are spraying away from rockwool; is the root system getting saturated? I'd consider burying the end underneath the rockwool and hydroton so its pumping directly into your roots.

Also, I eat frostys for breakfast I have an arcane build specifically for vs other mages. Pew-pew, pop explode! Rock on hehe

 

[Sam the Caveman]

i used to have a flood and drain system with pearlite as the medium ... things were so easy back then lol this system is a pain in the ass

Why did you switch?

I am running flood and drain with perlite now, and things couldn't be easier. The plants love it and I only mess with the rez once a week. One week I'll top it off and the next I'll change it out.

 

[durka_durka420]

and this is why people should not buy these weird ass hydro kits and build it them selves so they know how it works because they built it........

 

[LonelyNerd]

and this is why people should not buy these weird ass hydro kits and build it them selves so they know how it works because they built it........

yup always build your own system, save headaches & money. Get comfortable with your own system and test it in all conditions.

Mage you cannot rule out pythium. Im sure you couldn't see "all" the bottom roots through all that hydroton, if you did, your plant was disturbed. There are different variations of pythium. it has alot to do with the setup. I dont understand the necessity of an air stones beneath your pots. The water beneath those pots should be evacuated immediately. That little gap between the pots and drain manifold is a perfect place for zoo spores to take hold and travel back to your res.

This relates to what bendoslendo said before me, "This doesn't sound like a bubbleponics/DWC. In these systems roots hang through netpots into a nutrient solution aerated by airstones. If your roots are in the aerated solution, you dont need to be flooding/feeding from the top."

Any stagnant water in your system may have caused pythium. By increasing water temperature, you also did not help the problem. Im only saying this because after increasing the amount of O2, your plants should have made a speedy hydroponic recovery. If not, you should be looking into other reasons why. You may have to sterilize all your equipment & grow area. Ask your hydro store for any products to prevent pythium. Preventing things like this happening is always better than having to deal with them. I hope your plants cheer up real soon!

 

[stonedar]

going by the diagram that is a perfectly reasonable hydro set up. like freezebag said it's very much like a water farm/res set up with air-stones in each planter. looks like great oxygen to roots set up to me.
I have a question though, why the res heater? unless it's damn cold where you grow

 

[mage]

hey guys thanks for the replies and advice!

Yeah it gets really cold where i am and the water heater is needed during the cooler parts of the year.

Why did i change, basically i gave up growing abt 3 years ago and sold everything i owned and built. i regretfully didn't want the trouble of crafting my own setup so resorted to laziness by purchasing one premade.

I am considering reverting back to a flood drain with pearlite/rockwool medium after this grow as it worked really well for me in the past.

"Healthy white fuzzy roots is a good sign. This rules out pythium unless it is localized somewhere you cannot see.

Recovery from over watering should take a day or two. Was the rockwool continuously wet?

Doesn't really look like any over-watering I've seen though, more like under watering actually. I know you are spraying away from rockwool; is the root system getting saturated? I'd consider burying the end underneath the rockwool and hydroton so its pumping directly into your roots."

yeah bend this is what has me puzzled. Two things i guess, i created like a watering ring to feed the drip feed the water around and not touch the rock wool, but i was worried that because the plants wernt getting any water on the roots that were int he rock wool it would be underwatering them and watering others just right. when i shifted the water feeding off of the rockwool cubes (and the cubes dried out) the plant started to look a bit better then when the cubes were fully dried out it started to look bad, some of the roots appear to be dead from the lack of watering ont he cubes.

i've put this down to bad system design and poor choice of mediums. im guessing that the bulk of people who choose clay balls as thier growing medium dont use rock wool with it. i used to pair rockwool with pearlite back int he day and i had no trouble, probly because the system and medium needed to be watered a lot less often.

im certain that ive just ruined the plants because its been way longer than a day or two and the leaves are still curling more, the lower leaves (the 3 set ones) are dieing, and the upper leaves are rolling inwards. (ill take a few pics and attach). im even getting necrosis on the edges of the leaves. im certain i have noobed these plants to death.

however you live and learn and grow

tbh im supprised these plants are still standing, i think it shows the amazing resilience of cannabis. things i've learnt that i will correct in my next grow ...

- choose a better growing medium, or a diff method of propergation for clay balls. (ill use rockwool/pearlite)
- use a much more forgiving system (simple flood drain that i can build myself)
- water heaters are to be set to 20 degrees celcius not 30 ;-)
- using full strength solution from like day 5 will pwn your plants. when the roots have popped out of the larger rockwool cubes start with 30% and up it incrementaly each week. dont use full str nutes + seedling food which also contains NPK then stand around going why are my plants burnt to the shit house!? ;-)
- keep under flouros until roots have popped out of large rockwool cube, dont put under 600 watt light after 5 days ;-)

i've learnt so much so if they dont bounce back its not the end of the world, ill go grab some pics

 

[FreezerBoy]

While the setup provides O2, the upper pot prevents ANY water to the upper roots from below such as a DWC will deliver. While upper roots need more air than water, they do need to be damp. The only way to achieve that with this setup is top feeding.

I dont understand the necessity of an air stones beneath your pots.

Eventually, roots will drop through the holes in the bottom of the upper pot and live in the water below. If that water isn't aerated, the plant can drown. Further, bursting air bubbles will project water drops up to the roots hanging in the airgap preventing death by dehydration.

As to water temps, shoot for 65º-70ºF. The water pump is going to heat up the water. Adding a heater could lead to trouble. Most in this situation would be considering a chiller rather than a heater.

 

[mage]

i've added captions in paint, im interested in the root shot though

can you have dead roots and not have root rot or does dead roots = root rot ... hmmm (its supposed to say "root rot" in pic not just root lol i think we know its a root xD)

oh yeah +1 rep for everyone who replied tyvm for helping

(ps bend ... you bring your arcane spec ill rock up in my war xD spellreflect ftw! )

 

[mage]

The water pump is going to heat up the water. Adding a heater could lead to trouble. Most in this situation would be considering a chiller rather than a heater.

thats actually really good advice and something i didnt take into consideration! im going to consider ditching the heater all together, i never used to grow with one.

i am growing concrete and it does range from 32-50 degree F (0-10 deg C) over night, that was why the water heater.

but yeah your right, the water temp will not be 68 deg F (20 deg C) it will be 68 deg F + x, with 'x' being how much heat the water pump is putting into the water.

i have a thermomiter, im going to monitor it.

 

[jm420]

I dont know who claims this to be like a water farm,Its not even close ,I consider it some kind of eeb and flow excrpt the fact is you top feeding,instead of flooding.Get your buckets at the same level as the res and use it as a remote res ,Your buckets must have solution in it at all times ,continue to drip feed 24/7untill the root are in the buckets