Water ph'ing methods for outdoor soil

[mossyoakle]

I want to know what others are doing (if anything) to ph their water for outdoor organic soil. My water comes out of the ground around 7.4 and throw some GH PH down in the tank to lower it to 6.5...I'm thinking there is a better way to do it!

 

[Noonin NorCal]

If u have a hose throw a filter on it, i use a boogie blue filter that attaches to the hose

 

[mossyoakle]

I don't think a filter will change pH. Its well water, so untreated.

 

[Cannabis]

I dunno what filter's which, but if it strips the calcium and magnesium out, it'll make the pH of the water get closer to neutral. People use it for emergency measures in making hydroponic water I believe, I know I used to see a thread somewhere, where people do it. The same stuff that makes water droplets on washed boats, trucks, cars, etc, is what makes pH high.

There's also acid from the auto parts store. Battery electrolyte.

 

[analogcricket]

is there any other way to lower your ph without buying ph down from the hydro store?
how well does apple cider vinegar work? ive been reading mixed reviews...

 

[Cannabis]

You go to the auto parts store and get sulfuric acid for batteries it's diluted to thirty five percent.

Following correct acidic/alkali chemical handling protocols meaning eye protection, not splashing it, and making sure the cleanup involves using a neutralizer (baking soda and tap water)

you dilute the 35% they sell you with some distilled water down to something you are comfortable measuring and handling.

Some people dilute it five times, some three, some cut it in half. I personally cut it in half, and use a very reliable small squirt bottle to spritz it into low volumes of water - on the five gallon bucket times two, or three, or five, level.

Obviously if you're changing the pH of drums and hundreds of gallons of water your mileage is gonna reflect your application's particular demands.

I keep mine also, inside a plastic rubbermaid chinglie with a lid into which I've thrown about a half-handfull of baking soda so if it ever leaks any it'll be neutralized.

Most people prefer to cut it down maybe five times, and keep a more standard one liter bottle of it around.

You then dose as per your own need, on the ground, where you are, at that time.

Sometimes I go get my large bottle and shoot a large barrel just right out of the package from the store, but I only grow, for myself, friends, and family; so usually there's not that much water for me

It varies from manufacturer to manufacturer but basically a quart of electrolyte from the car parts store makes tens of gallons
of high quality pH down.

For eight dollars.

There is a down side to using the most common agricultural acid, sulfuric, and that's the added flavor of the sulfur.

It makes the smoke taste thick and clouded like - go figure - the smell of a freshly extinguished matchstick.

If your weed MUST be known for it's clear, pristine flavor, you have to start looking at another way beside sulfur and it's something pot snobs have screamed about for YEARS and - in fact they had effectively lied their way into convincing everyone worldwide that sulfur is poison for plants, and the only way to grow was with extra high dollar this and that...

but the truth of course came out over time that in almost all other applications on earth, sulfur is the preferred element to make the pH dependent on because if you use phosphorus then, when the phosphorus is uptaken by the plants, there also goes the acidifying component to your mix of fertilizer and soil/water conditioner.

Citric acid is probably the absolute pinnacle of pH adjustment without drawbacks like taste if it were cheap: plant roots, actually DISCHARGE citric acid and there is a "citric acid cyle" in plant biology.

But it's a weak acid that's not very persistent and it's expensive too, so if you're dosing it in with a pump and pH controller indoors, on your indoor stuff, that's one thing; or if you can actually sell the weed with that price tacked on, that's one thing.

But for a guy just growing some weed, and in most botanical question mark type situations, it's actually as healthy to the plant to give it sulfur based acidification.

After all, if you were plowing up a huge field and planting a crop, do you know what you'd plow in, so you could bring the pH of the soil down?

Sulfur.

Do ya know why?

Because it is eaten by bacteria in the soil which then exude: you guessed it - sulfuric acid.

Ya think I'm joking?

Look up "the Sulfur cycle" real quick; just on another tab.

From what I understand, people who use vinegar never have problems, in soil; it's just that vinegar isn't a strong acid, it's referred to as belonging to the family of what's called 'weak' acids,

as in

the acid is comprised of molecules that have a Hydrogen they could dump- but they won't, because the way that molecule's built,

it keeps some of it's Hydrogens tied to it - unreleased, unused,

into the fertilizer/water solution.

Strong acids are the ones where, when the acid's put into solution, the Hydrogen protons all release from the body of that original acidic molecule you were paying to buy and acidify the water.

Sulfuric's a strong acid.

Along with it's status as a major, secondary nutrient -

[the NPK primaries are actually cut off at 3 because exhaustive tests on labels when legislation demanded, showed MORE than three numbers and untrained agriculture personnel couldn't reliably choose properly.

When ferts - chemical ferts on the scale we use them - were first packaged there was real concern entire valley crops could be improperly put in: indeed entire regions could be mis-applied and - literally - worldwide supplies of medicines, foodstuffs, dyes, etc could come up short, if labeling was allowed any relaxation at all - hence the fact that in PLANT NUTRITION
there's more like, a
TRUE big
SIX nutrients: the modern NPK then, CALCIUM, SULFUR, and MAGNESIUM]

and the fact it's so cheap,
and the fact plants are evolved for usage of it as acidifier in soil,
the fact it's a known anti fungal,

all this and the fact it doesn't precipitate out into locked out solids, make it the more commonly recommended acid
in hydroponics
and in agriculture at large.

It's applied using fertilizer dosing equipment with irrigation because of the fact, it never hardens up precipitating out blocking sprayer/mister/drippers.

Obviously the way you use your pH down is dependent on just how much water you need to acidify.

 

[mossyoakle]

Thanks Canna, very good information! I've never seen sulfuric acid at the farm store, definitely gonna do some research. Pretty sure that the pH down I use is phosphoric acid....and also just picked up some citric acid to try.

Was thinking that phos acid wasn't too great in veg because of the added P.

I've also thought there could be an organic nutrient to add to the tank that lowers the pH down, but without adding a substantial npk or other boost. The soil is rich enough, don't want to burn them! Maybe a seaweed, kelp, compost, or castings?

Its a 3000 gallon tank, so could take a lot.

 

[mossyoakle]

Not to mention that I think the phosphoric acid is the main culprit for why I can't keep the tank clean(mysterious growth in water)

 

[stoned-trout]

I add earthjuice organic ferts... the low ph of the ferts does the job of ph down ...

 

[jackel]

My waters pH was high, 8 or so. I had my soil tested and it tested at 6.6. So the soil is really buffering the water (I added dolomite lime to my soil).
So what I'm saying is, it's prob not a big deal.

 

[mossyoakle]

Interesting, that makes life simple, just hard to make the leap into going to 7.5 water to see if it works. Not a Dan of making them teat subjects

 

[HunterJ]

My town water is 7.4 and to save a lot of work I got myself a 1000l tank ($50) - http://www.blomamsterdam.nl/vatenhandel/ibc-containers - that had been used for seaweed concentrate, just luck - it's got to be food safe.

Tank is raised a meter off the ground. After filling the tank and letting the chlorine evaporate I alter the PH of the water to 6.6 with distilled (brewed can form cultures) white (apple cider this time) vinegar, around 800ml to 1000L, and my garden loves it. When I was using water straight from the tap everything got watered, but now the water gives the garden the look of 'life' too, the way rain does.

This way I have a couple months water supply on hand and always know what the PH is so it's never an issue, tested regularly.

I never amend the water with nutes of any kind as it sits too long in the daylight/heat of the sun.

Edit: Any idea what the source of the 'mysterious growth' (any pix, description?) is?

 

[HunterJ]

is there any other way to lower your ph without buying ph down from the hydro store?
how well does apple cider vinegar work? ive been reading mixed reviews...

Works for me ...

 

[Cannabis]

There's a kind of carbon eating bacteria that lives in water and if the water has any fertilizer in it, a thick viscous gel grows up on everything that stays submerged /frequently and repeatedly immersed.

They're named carboniferous for "carbon" - obviously, lol - and then -ifer is 'eating' and, 'ous' is 'type/of the type/of the kind that ...

and i don't remember if these are also the red algae; I don't think, they are, but I could very well, be wrong.

but here's a hint for you interested in the various slimes fertilized/unfertilized water will sustain:

the red algae, is that red scum, that grows on otherwise clean water containers, if the water is un/under-treated.

And since that includes tubs/toilets/sinks, it means the plumbing sites give you lots of link-rich pages to get the quick & dirty lowdown on slime in all it's scintillating charm.

I hesitate to say more because I'm haven't refreshed my limited but thorough, large but small, negligible/enormous understanding of the subtle nuances, thereof.

I believe that maybe actually that's one of the reasons, people use sulfuric, too: you can in fact mix fertilized water up that's pH'd with sulfuric, and it doesn't grow slime of the carbon eating type, it'll only grow algae, if there's light.

Hunter buddy I'm not knocking usage of vinegar at all I was just rolling out everything that comes to mind about it so people would have somebody else's bullshoot to compare,

both the pH issue and the slime issue is one a lot of people encounter when they start growing so I figured a couple of quick spams on the various ends, will sorta frame up,

the issues when looking them up, on their own.

Not repeat N.O.T. to knock usage of vinegar at all, just sayin for sayin's sake...

 

[Cannabis]

I feel very sure that one of the doggone things your job is, to provide, is carbon, in a soil grow to some degree, isn't that right?

I mean... when you're deep off into the organics forum with chicks who grow shit we can't spell, and she's talking about building her super soil that brings forth harmony and love and all good herbs for mankind and cattle,

doesn't she start going on about how ''we provide plenty of carbon and other critical growth promoting, YadayaddaYADDa?"

I think so. I mean carbon's like.. life is CALLED "CARBON based LIFE".

I think that, the only time/reason vinegar isn't used, is because it'll promote slime if there's fertilizer in the water. I'm kind of coming to that conclusion again after having sorted it out before,

but I think, that's kind of how that shakes out: you have to pay more to use the sulfur, you affect the flavor cloaking it some but the fertilized water doesn't grow slime, and it works in hydroponics, and soil,

but, if you have to make sure not to add too much sulfur, I guess you can just dose your SOIL grows, using vinegar.

Wow I'd be prepared to almost say I've got that stuff down to an 'ism' to ... you know - whatever degree it turns out to be true. I don't know for a verified fact but I feel like I'd remember

if I had ever seen someone recommend against, vinegar in soil.

I don't think I ever have but then, I don't grow, in soil and rarely have, and have hence, always used sulfuric.

 

[mossyoakle]

The growth is like an opaque, hazy, scum that likes to stay on the top of the water level. If let go on for a week or two, it starts to smell and get cloudy...that's when I usually clean it out thoroughly and start over.

My experience is that the water stays clean until the phosphoric acid is added and then begins the whole thing again.

I'm definitely gonna look into the sulfuric acid and/or vinegar as an alternative...although I'm guessing it would take a large amount of vinegar to get the job done.

 

[HunterJ]

Well, even in my unlimited potential, for misunderstanding the, renderings of the barely understood, I didn't think you were, knocking vinegar. Vinegar can, take it, anyway I'm sure.

Good to know sulfuric down allows mixing nutes without prompting growth/s, and vinegar doesn't.

 

[Cannabis]

Yeah it's from carbon eating fungus or bacteria I don't remember, and the smell like something's dying, is the bacteria of decay, consuming the now-useless protective slime-cell agglomerations of the carbon eating ones, that died.

I learned about that definitively here on some thread; a guy came in, said it stunk and hazed and scudded,

everybody said might be this or that,

somebody, I didn't know, or don't remember now, said "It's the carbon eating bacteria, they make protective slime and when they die, their bodies slough off into the water. It hazes the water, and the water scuds over with the protein of the dead slime cells; they start to stink, as the bacteria of decay, metabolize them."

Says the guy, "if you check and I mean really check," says he kinda paraphrased by me obviously -

"you have additives that contain carbon."

I had the problem.
I was reading along silently.
Mine was dwc like everybody's and their brothers' at the time -

Everybody was like.... wtf?
So somebody piped up, and asked him, "Hey, what makes ya say that?"

Says the dude, " YadaYada Link or two" bada bing, bada bang, and he lays us all out on this "carboniferous bacteria/fungus/whatever- I instantly wrote by muscle memory "carboniferous bacteria" so...

The scum is tiny bubbles encased in protein from the dead slime cells.

The haze is from the first round to die a few hours' life span after addition of the carbon to the fertilized water, and fall off whatever surfaces in the reservoir they were attached to, and float around in it.

The smell is the gas that forms, creating the foam,


The original poster swapped the water after talking with the people in the thread about which of his additives contained carbon.

The water stayed clear.
He added one of em and it hazed, started smelling bad and scudded over.

He swapped water once and said "Out of gratitude I'm gonna start with no carbon and add back one of the OTHER additives that had carbon and after that I've gotta get my grow on guys, thanks."

He put it in, and said "It hazed up, foamed and started stinking, thanks a lot, you guys should check it out like I did so we can be sure" Other people did the same and verified it.

I'm paraphrasing but for a long time the thread was kind of famous for having so definitively answered that question, I think it was here, at I.C.

Everybody got referred to it.

Why did I have the problem?

Vinegar for pH down, LoL.

No kidding. So, that's kinda what you're going to find out about sliming in water, and OH YEAH if I am recollecting right the GUY TOLD us all, ''THE REASON THE FOAM IS BROWN is BECAUSE it's the PHOSPHORUS OUT OF YOUR FERTILIZER"

I was trying to think, "Wasn't there some kind of like.. didn't the guy even explain to us all, why the foam is about the color of a seed hull SAYING,

"notice the foam is about the color of a seed hull? Seed hulls have a lot of phosphorous that's why they're that color brown, the bacteria also are using the phosphorus in your water, that's the reason the scud on the water is the color of a seed."

Now- I could just be a master bullshitter who started listening to the rays out of the electrical socket,
but.. I seriously seem to remember,

that whoever that dude was who told all of us reading that thread, about these 'carboniferous bacteria'

I remember
that every friggin one of us, was remarking/thinking,

"Man, that dude whipped out that "carboniferous bacteria" like it was a can of Cannabis Cultivatin' Kung F*ck*n' FU, Yo..."

We were all just kinda stunned how who EVER it was, LoL I can't remember just came in and sprayed us down with that and was like,

'T'nk nutt'n of it,' and that was answered for a LONG time.

As a matter of fact I believe, that if you go to the guys' threads

that have a lot of discussion about what they call a dwc

that's a deepwater culture, growing in five gallon buckets with a reservoir of ferts pumping around and around -

somebody or more like it about half the people frequenting those threads, who grow that way, will have a link in their signature, to that thread.

It was hilarious because everyone was like... wtf, over? When he told us it was the color of seeds because it was eating the phosphorus and I personally as well as several other people got some of that scum and compared it side by side to a seed, and it as like, DEAD ON, yo...

you could hear the mouse wheels just start SPINNING like MAD in like a DOZEN peoples' minds LoL. It was like batman had showed up and saved us all from the joker LoL.

All that water, you get mad, changing it out, nobody knows nothin, LoL.

Seriously it's carbon eating bacteria and you can prove it to yourself by looking at your additives and if it's got carbon in it, remove it temporarily, then add it.

It'll haze. That's the first round of dead slime bodies sloughing off the walls of the reservoir.

It'll scum over and stink.

If you leave it a long time, it makes a gel covering on everything usually.

Anyway, that's what I know about it good luck with your growing

The growth is like an opaque, hazy, scum that likes to stay on the top of the water level. If let go on for a week or two, it starts to smell and get cloudy...that's when I usually clean it out thoroughly and start over.

My experience is that the water stays clean until the phosphoric acid is added and then begins the whole thing again.

I'm definitely gonna look into the sulfuric acid and/or vinegar as an alternative...although I'm guessing it would take a large amount of vinegar to get the job done.

 

[hells winter]

I think molasses lower the ph.

 

[mossyoakle]

Maybe I'm missing something but there isn't carbon in phosphoric acid. So how does its addition start a carbon eating bacteria?