budleydoright
Member
I'm definately going to try this. I have all the parts on hand. Just need to find the time to do it. I'll definately post the project.
Water Cooled Growers Unite!
- Thread starter toohighmf
- Start date
T
thefatman
You can if you wish just use sodium silica. It will leavs a coating on all metal surfaces but not plastic or glass. It is sold on eBay or at automotive stores. They sell it at auto stores to put in old car engines going to salvage yards so they have to be taken completely apart to be rebuilt. It is required by law in some states. The type that is used to recondition old automotive anti freeze is also clear. They say the additives wear out over time. That is not true as they are coating alll metal parts. Once they are coated there is no need for the antifreeze to have silica additives added again unless you intend to use the old antifreeze in another engine (a new one or a rebuilt engine engine that was hot tanked as part of rebuild preparation). If you ever look at the inside of the radiator, or heater core the water passages have a white coating. This is the silica. Silica phosphate would work as well but it is quiet a bit more expensive.
T
thefatman
Try a Caterpillar dealer that has a repair shop. They have O-rings in a huge number of sizes. Likely Fresco is just using a very common o-ring size used for some other application like sediment filter housing o-rings.
T
thefatman
Hey BD, yeah the fresca's are still a work in progress and need improvement, IMO. While the single gasket end plate design eliminates the exposed metal of the dual gasket design, the nipple to gasket transition is shaky and a step backwards. The new uni-gasket has a very fragile integrated nipple with a barely over 1/4" orifice, they include a little brass insert to keep it from collapsing when the brass hose fitting is tightened but then you're counting on a brass to brass seal to be water tight, and if that fails you're right back to the aluminum corroding. I'd rather see the entire ends just be solid plastic, I was gonna make my own ends instead of buying the replacements but didn't have the time to deal with it.
The original water cooled light housings used light weight PVC plastic end caps but they warped too easily. I have made a few out of 1" thick acrylic plastic bought as scrap on eBay. They work well without warping but as you say are time consuming to build. I also bought the borosilicate glass from a glass blowing shop online. The cost for the materials to make three is about the cost of buying one fresca unit. The ones I made had 4" inner glass and 6" outer glass. They cut the glass to length before shipping it to you. They sell them in 5' lengths and charge $4 per cut. Ie two tubes make 3 lights with 20 inch tubes.
T
thefatman
The cheap ones sold for reef aquariums etc are set for 90 degrees F inlet water when determining the amount of freon to add to the units. A person making there own and having an air conditioner person to drain and recharge the unit can add what ever amount of freon need to run most efficiently in accordance with the water running through the heat exchanger when he charges the unit. If you do not have preheated water to run through the unit when he charges the unit he will just set it at the same pressures as used for a standard air conditioning unit. They will work at higher or lower water inlet temperature but not as efficiently as when dialed in for a specific water inlet temp. R22 charged units are the only units that work outside down to 41 below zero F. Really the more important issue is that the air being blown through the condensor can't be to bold. With a typical air conditioner that means the efficiency and cooling capacity of the units drops off rapidly below 65 degree F. The way to avoid that is as I wrote before is to run the condenser fan at slower speeda as the outside temp drop. At real cold temps the condensor fan does not run at all. Air conditioningt units do not last long or run well when the refrigerant entering the compressor at to cold of temps. The actually run best when the refrigerant entering the compressor is between 95 and 105 degrees F. With really hot outside temps you need a bigger faster fan or larger condensers and bigger, faster fans.
T
thefatman
Most cheap window air conditioning units such as sold by Sears or Walmart etc use R22. Commercial freezer units that have their condensors out side and are in cold climates also use R22. Nearly all aircomditioning and refrigerator repair places have permits to but R22. Alledgedly the shops have to recover and reuse all the old R22 freon from units and are only allowed to use R22 in units already using R22 freon. Countries like China nearly always use R22 rather than the newer freon types. Ie most cheap window air conditioners (including the cheap split units are made in China).
poindexterous
Member
Ok I see the stuff, sodium silicate aka "water glass" sold as a clear liquid from many online sources. Has many uses. I'll pick some up. Thanks Fatman.
poindexterous
Member
I'd sure like to build my own some time to replace the fresca's. I'd pictured using thick plastic disks as you describe(so acrylic is ideal?) and tapping 1/2" npt holes in them for hose barbs, and covering the entire glass contact side with a same sized disk of gasket material rather than O-rings, with a hole cut to meet the 1/2" hole. I often hear of buna/nitrile rubber being tough stuff(and easy to find sheets of), think that's a good choice?
budleydoright
Member
I'm thinking along the lines of a large Ice box style heat exchanger with all 3 of my fixtures running in parallel to it. I dunno, I'll keep the frescas shored up for quite a while.
All of the window shakers I've looked at this summer are R410. R22 is no longer allowed to be used in newly manufactured items. It will continue to be available I think until 2020. I believe it is still allowed in certain items as well.
All of the window shakers I've looked at this summer are R410. R22 is no longer allowed to be used in newly manufactured items. It will continue to be available I think until 2020. I believe it is still allowed in certain items as well.
T
thefatman
Yes cell cast acrylic is preferable. It machines better (smoother) than extruded plastic sheets. Extruded plastics are more brittle and tend to chip and melt more during machining. Cell cast is more expensive but you would only be buying remnants preferably as thick acrylic is quiet expensive when bought cut from full sheets. I would not use a full disk rubber gasket but instead use a donut shaped gasket about one inch larger in diameter then the outer tubes outside diameter and with the donuts inner hole being about an inch smaller in diameter than the inner tubes inside diameter. EPDM or Buna Nitrile would both work well. Buna Nitrile is typically use for automotive gaskets due to oil and gas resistance. EPDM is commonly used to make o-rings for better brands of plastic water pipe unions and plastic water valve gaskets.
Steven HashKing
New member
quick question. Could potassium silicate also be used? as in a silica nute additive. cheers
T
thefatman
Yes but it actually better than the sodium silica but it is much more expensive and as sodium silica might cause some pitting of any steel parts in contact with the systems water it is a better choice. Hopefully though your not using a pump with steel arts in contact with the water so the sodium silica would therefore work fine. The pitting would be filled by the silica though but the surfaces would not be as smooth.
In actuality any tap water that is hard water will cause a coating to form on the metal. Thw worst water you can use with the Fresca's with aluminm plates is pure water such as RO, distilled ordeionized water. They are good in that they will eliminate iron (rust) and magnesium sulfate (cause slimy black deposits) in the original tap water but they are quiet corrosive to aluminum. Normally stainless steel is used with pure water when the user can afford it. The better heater exchangers (as an example) used for pure water are always made with stainless steel or titanium not aluminum or copper.
BCMaster
Member
Cool Cats
I haven't seen anyone mention these things in this thread yet so I thought I'd throw it in here, http://www.cvrmfg.com/index.cfm?page=2
I haven't seen anyone mention these things in this thread yet so I thought I'd throw it in here, http://www.cvrmfg.com/index.cfm?page=2
where is the best place to buy chillers right now. i'm setting up 2 12 site undercurrents for veg, and 2 separate 8 site mpb/undercurrent bloom rooms. so i need 4.
budleydoright
Member
budleydoright
Member
http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-1-HP-TITANI...742?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255e1d6d26
check this guys stuff out. i've heard good things about these.
Be cheaper to setup one master chiller and run a pump circuit to each of your UC rez with a stainless or titanium coil in it. wort chiller coil off of ebay works great.
Steven HashKing
New member
appreciate your detailed and educational response. thanks mate
poindexterous
Member
These radiators are great for transferring a lot of heat from water to air, I cool my Fresca's with one of these. They sell them from 12x12" up to 24x24" as in this link:
http://cgi.ebay.com/24x24-Heat-Exchanger-Outdoor-Wood-Furnace-Boiler-/160520134741
I just built a plywood box to attach it to and cut a round hole on the other side for my inline fan.
http://cgi.ebay.com/24x24-Heat-Exchanger-Outdoor-Wood-Furnace-Boiler-/160520134741
I just built a plywood box to attach it to and cut a round hole on the other side for my inline fan.
T
thefatman
This is what I use instead of icebox coolers (http://cgi.ebay.com/Lytron-Radiator...085?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a68852f85) for cooling my plant rooms (35 to 50 degree glycol water is circulated through them at all times (for dehumidification) but the fans are controlled by a day/night thermostat to control cooling. They do an excellent job of dehumidifying. I just made a drain pan out of PVC to catch the water that drips off the heat exchangers. The heat exchangers with the Tarzan fan sell new for about $750 to $950 each. They sweat constantly. The Tarzan fans when bought separately typically sell for about $110 each. My lights themselves are water cooled Frescos with water that has silica phosphate added. The water runs through them at all times. They are fed via a separate manifold in a closed loop with a DIY titanium multi-tube heat exchanger in the glycol/water filled reservoir tank. The closed loop manifold also has a small inline expansion tank. The exiting water line has a flow/no flow valves to turn off the lights if the water flow stops or if the flow drops appreciably.
I have a second backup DIY 1 ton chiller plumbed in line with the first chiller that cools the reservoir water but it does not turn on unless the water outlet from the first chiller rises above rises above 55 degrees. The water runs through the chillers 24 hour a day with the chillers controlled by separate thermostats with their temp probes being in the reservoir water. There is also a flow no flow valve on the water exiting from the chillers to turn off the chillers if the water flow stops. 55 to 65 degree water will keep the lights and room cool but there is very little dehumidification at those temps. I also use a humidifier to humidify the room if the dehumidification from the heat exchangers is excessive. It is set at 35% RH when the lights are off and 45% RH when the lights are on. I am planning within the next two months to install a heat exchanger out side to chill the reservoir water during the winter months about 5 months a year the outside temps are below 35 degrees 24/7.
No I would not suggest a hobbyist grower set up such a system as even with DIY chillers, go/no go valves, heat exchangers, chiller conversion parts and pumps bought off eBay the price is far above what most growers would spend. As I am no longer married I no longer have to listen to nagging about how I spend money.
The reservoir tank is insulated with urethane foam and is a 150 gallon plastic water tank normally used in pickup trucks to haul water for those without wells or city water.
I have a second backup DIY 1 ton chiller plumbed in line with the first chiller that cools the reservoir water but it does not turn on unless the water outlet from the first chiller rises above rises above 55 degrees. The water runs through the chillers 24 hour a day with the chillers controlled by separate thermostats with their temp probes being in the reservoir water. There is also a flow no flow valve on the water exiting from the chillers to turn off the chillers if the water flow stops. 55 to 65 degree water will keep the lights and room cool but there is very little dehumidification at those temps. I also use a humidifier to humidify the room if the dehumidification from the heat exchangers is excessive. It is set at 35% RH when the lights are off and 45% RH when the lights are on. I am planning within the next two months to install a heat exchanger out side to chill the reservoir water during the winter months about 5 months a year the outside temps are below 35 degrees 24/7.
No I would not suggest a hobbyist grower set up such a system as even with DIY chillers, go/no go valves, heat exchangers, chiller conversion parts and pumps bought off eBay the price is far above what most growers would spend. As I am no longer married I no longer have to listen to nagging about how I spend money.
The reservoir tank is insulated with urethane foam and is a 150 gallon plastic water tank normally used in pickup trucks to haul water for those without wells or city water.
poindexterous
Member
You're a total techy Fatman, I love it! If you ever get inspired to post some pics I'll be at the edge of my seat.
That's an interesting system. So you have a single cooling source both cool lights and act essentially as a glycol based split-AC. That's certainly more convenient than refrigerant lines. What temp do you keep the water in the closed light loop?
Also after the silica do you find any need to treat the water in any other way? I ask as I keep my light coolant as if it were a pool, a few ppm chlorine, some algicide, 4in1 conditioner, etc, mostly out of fear a algae starting inside the glass which would be a huge pain to clean, though I'm not really sure I need to fear this?
My system cools my lights and CO2 gen well enough but I still need an AC to dehumidify as my coolant is always fairly warm. I'm thinking of replacing my window AC with a marine AC and cooling it with the same system, more or less getting a similar end result via a different route. Fun stuff!
