Warehouse grow questions

[mightyogre]

Hello all, former lurker here with a first post.

Well it looks like my state is going to pass a medical marijuana law....Ohio. The proposal will have a 5k sq ft canopy (flowering) license for a reasonable fee, and I have an industrail property with big time electric available to me. I am sure I will have more questions, but my first one is using the property's height, which is 25 feet on average (arch shape roof).

I always thought you want to get the lights as close to the plants as possible, but I have seem some pics of commercial size grows with lights waaaay up there. Does that actually work? Assume lights are not led for now.

How else can I use my buildings height to my advantage ? Could airflow be used with the height to avoid pushing air through ducts between lights or no?

Any other good ways to use the height to my advantage?

One side question- does anybody lease led lights? I mean, I would need at least 200 of those to cover 5k sq ft properly no?

Thanks in advance for helping out with knowledge. Who knows, maybe I will meet my MG for this building on here.

I look forward to learning.

 

[mightyogre]

Sorry this is a duplicate, how do I delete ?

 

[hup234]

look @gavita de lights in grow lights sub forum
high ceilings would greatly cut down on any ac costs
might need to heat floors in winter in Ohio

 

[bigbadbiddy]

I think the lower cost on temperature control is why some hang them very high up in greenhouses or commercial facilities as well.

In greenhouses the artificial lighting is also used as a supplement to sunlight so that further reduces the need to have the lights so close to the canopy and the lower temp control costs might offset the potential gain from lowering the lights.

Are LED lights really used in commercial scale greenhouses etc.?

That would surprise me. I was under the impression that LED still hasn't found its price equilibrium and should still be considerably lower priced to be a viable alternative for large commercial operations.

I would personally look into ceramic metal halide or also go with something like the gavitas.

 

[Mikell]

LED is used in large grows.

When the manufacturer provides free equipment haw haw haw

DE are high because of the intense light out put and to maintain optimal growth within a set parameter for plant height. CMH would cost as much or more (Greenbeams) than LED. Commercial is still ruled by 1000w bare bulb, anyone with the minimum headspace tends to switch to DE though.

Building height has other advantages. Breaking microclimates up (static air handlers above and below canopy), proper placement of oscillators, etc.

Though at 25' I would be thinking false or rigid ceiling.

 

[MileHighGlass]

25' Ceiling = 2 story grow

 

[rykus]

Cubic air space is a double edged sword in large commercial growing. The larger spaces provide a good buffer and once the conditions are dialled they can maintain great stability and take a long time to go off in the event of equipment malfunction.... Still over 10' is excessive and I too would be thinking two levels.....

I think the really high lighting is for low level plants like flowers or herbs or as suplamentary light in green houses where only about 500u/mol/s is needed..

Honestly IMO (and I did work for a guy who did this same thing) find a good grower first with a lot of build up experience... The guy I worked for had an electrical engineer design a lot of the electrical and a plumbing company build the irrigation. Both where totally overpriced and basically useless to real growing...he hit about 3.5 million in and was still pouring money in... Heard it all got ripped out and bare bulbed vert as he hired yet another consultant...


Anyways long story short, big rooms are very hard to get up and going and require good lighting and AC plans, and steady checks and safety precautions to maintain productivity.

Many small rooms is more organizing, more expensive to build in the end, and way less buffer in event of failure, but can be built as you go, and is easier to design and cool and maintain Co2 because the small air space... Just make sure you get high temp shut offs!

If I did it I would try to do 4-6 large rooms with an electrical/veg/work/bathroom on each floor... The 18 flower rooms where I was was cool for a steady cut of 2 21 light rooms a week, but lots of work just thinking about that, getting people trained to think like that ect.. Big rooms is just get a crew in for a few days and it's all the same so easy for stoners, lol.

If you go to places like Cali and BC that did a lot of big illegal wharehouses you'll note that bare bulbs, huge rooms, big plants and AC/Co2 are all a common theme for cost,plant count, ease of maintnance and productivity.

Good luck and if it doesn't make sense it's not a good plan, it's farming...KISS..

 

[badmf]

Read up on the "Inverse Square Law" Further away greatly diminishes power! I get em close and heavily ventilate between the canopy and tops. I also run a/c and its closed with co2 Important to figure security and odor control. I have also seen many grows with wasted light from a great distance, but its a lil more work to adjust up every couple days but you get rewarded with greater and tighter yeilds. Too close and you bleach em or burn em. Use the back of your hand as a guide too warm for you then its too warm for them.

 

[mightyogre]

Interesting stuff, thanks everybody.

I think that rather than building out several small rooms and doing all of the ventilation we ate going to either go with the DE using the height of the room or just go straight led.

The building is pretty interesting. The warehouse portion is 12k sq feet and like I said the 25 sq ft height. There are thin metal beams at about 16 feet up going across (below the ceiling). Is that high enough for DE?

It looks like there are indeed some led lighting leasing companies out there.

Is the led working well? That came about after my last project like 5 years back and I haven't seen them in action. Such a difference in price between manufacturers, especially some of the Chinese lights.

Do you guys have some experience with those?
Ohis is gonna be a crazy good market when this mpp amendment passes.

 

[mightyogre]

They are not false ceilings. Former airplane hanger that the next Tennant turned into heavy manufacturing including 8000 amps. Absolutely perfect.

 

[bigbadbiddy]

I would echo the suggestions of other, more experience members here and say:
- No LED, go with DE bare bulb systems
- Split it into 2 floors

You could for example use the lower level for flowering and even if you were to make the entire bottom level a flowering area, I would split it up into several rooms.
It just lets you control the environment better AND gives you a LOT more flexibility than making the entire area one huge flowering room.

Just imagine if you end up growing landrace Sativas at the same time as landrace Indicas.
If you have one huge flowering area, the environment won't be optimal for either one.
If you can give each strain its own flowering area, you can dial in the environment in each area according to the strain. Results should be accordingly "better".
You also won't get stumped if you end up wishing to produce seeds or make your own crosses. You could just dedicate one of the flowering rooms for breeding or male selection or whatever...


Now we all know that in flowering, you will battle high temperatures, require AC on that scale etc. etc.

But say you take the lower level as your flowering area, divided into several rooms or not, I would say making the second floor your veg, propagation, processing area along with workspace etc. will allow for you to make at least some use of the heat generated in the flowering area below. It will be warmer on the second floor and you might save on heating costs, warming systems for the propagation, etc.


I just don't see the advantage of not splitting it into two floors, other than a larger "buffer zone" for environment control which, according to other, more experienced members, is not as big of a deal as a second floor would be.

 

[mightyogre]

It looks like led could be possible. Worth the cost? Recomendations?

 

[Mikell]

Price out LED (ignore sketchy "AC savings" projections) and compare to DE.

Then just go with what other commercial/industrial growers are using.

The DE.

I'm kind of kidding. The choice is yours in the end.

If you do LED, find someone like PetFlora that's been in the scene for awhile. He's big on Amare but should know the whole picture. Or find someone doing 10kw+ (and catch some snipe while your luck holds )

 

[bigbadbiddy]

As Mikell said: The choice is yours.

But as me and others have said: I think you would be the first commercial grow on that scale using LEDs. Maybe think about why that is, compare lights more carefully...

From my standpoint it comes down to this:
LEDs are still too expensive at purchase/leasing compared to other light sources.
The potential savings in environmental control and energy costs are widely considered to be offset by the purchasing price.

In other words: From what I understand of the whole topic (and I didn't go deep into my LED research), LEDs are in a state where they are feasible for the hobby grower or someone wishing to "try this out" but not really at the point where you would run them in a commercial operation. For that to happen, the price for LEDs will have to come down further and the results from people testing these lights will have to be more uniform and conclusive.

Afaik there is simply too much variety in results between the various LED manufacturers as well at the current state of affairs.

Going this scale, most would not be willing to leave anything up to chance and try to minimize their risk on investment.
Thus the continuous recommendation of "rather not LED but DE systems".

Still, as Mikell said, up to you. We will all hold our breath, keep our fingers crossed and look forward to your results.

Best of luck mate!

 

[mightyogre]

Ok, so maybe the plot is thickening here.

So I called a small company that makes custom led lighting for non growing purposes, and they put me though to thier tech guy. I thought they made lights for this purpose when calling....but anyhow.

He gets really interst and starts asking all these questions I know nothing about. He says let me do some research. A couple weeks go by, and he calls back plus sends me some stuff.

He says the science is still in its infancy, but if all he has to do it try to match or beat the effectiveness of a DE gavita with the same light spectrum that is easy. He says basically he could make led in white with a touch of green that is actually stronger and csn be placed closer to the plants.

Maybe I should shift this talk to a lighting thread. He asked me if there was a a good market for this application and if I wanted to see them.... but ignoring all that for now..... don you think this guy has a point? I mean, the gavita isn't like a crazy spectrum to try to replicate is it? I am thinking he may be on to something. I think this product could go waaaay closer to the plants than a de.

Thoughts?

 

[mightyogre]

Ok, so maybe the plot is thickening here.

So I called a small company that makes custom led lighting for non growing purposes, and they put me though to thier tech guy. I thought they made lights for this purpose when calling....but anyhow.

He gets really interst and starts asking all these questions I know nothing about. He says let me do some research. A couple weeks go by, and he calls back plus sends me some stuff.

He says the science is still in its infancy, but if all he has to do it try to match or beat the effectiveness of a DE gavita with the same light spectrum that is easy. He says basically he could make led in white with a touch of green that is actually stronger and csn be placed closer to the plants.

Maybe I should shift this talk to a lighting thread. He asked me if there was a a good market for this application and if I wanted to see them.... but ignoring all that for now..... don you think this guy has a point? I mean, the gavita isn't like a crazy spectrum to try to replicate is it? I am thinking he may be on to something. I think this product could go waaaay closer to the plants than a de.

Thoughts?

Sorry he asked if i wanted to "sell" them not see them.

 

[bigbadbiddy]

I think in theory LED is superior.

But in practice it is still to expensive.
As the guy said, LED is still in its infancy (when it comes to our application at least) and that could be the reason why the price is still not "right".

But it could also turn out that you cannot create LEDs that can compete with existing lighting systems at the price level that these other lighting systems are currently at.
I don't know enough about the whole topic to predict this accurately.

All I know is that as of today, LEDs may well be able to compete in terms of efficiency, output, etc. but are not able to compete in terms of price.

Seeing as you want to outfit a warehouse and thus likely plan to run a commercial operation, I would say any product you consider for this venture would HAVE TO be able to compete in terms of price.

If this was a hobby venture you could say "screw the price, I want what is up-to-date, current high-tech and future safe technology".
But in a commercial setup, logic and good business practice dictates that any product you consider has to be price-competitive, which LEDs currently aren't.

 

[mightyogre]

Well.... let's see what the cost difference truly ends up being. I have the following factors to build in.

Much less hvac work
A less powerful ac machine
An energy efficient rebate check from the energy company per light
Less ballasts

Plus, I am not dealing with a company with a bunch of advertising costs, just an led technician/lighting engineer . They don't even have a product to sell me yet. They are building it from scratch. The cost might not be so bad.

I will let you guys know where this all goes.

 

[bigbadbiddy]

Cool.

I mean nobody is saying that you can't be the one to set up the first deal in which LEDs are price competitive enough for a warehouse scale.

If you set up the right deal, of course it can work.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

 

[eric2028]

So many issues with a warehouse grow. Ur lighting shouldn't be questionable. Keep it simple. Tried and true. Hardcore ballast 70 bucks. Hortilux 1000 watt 70 bucks. Radiant 6 or 8 hoods 90 bucks.