Waddaya Think of my Plan?

[CaptainKirk]

Hi All,

First of all, I'm new to ICMag, so please be gentle! I have a 3' x 5' x 6' melamine cabinet that I built for a previous grow design. I know I was making several fundamental errors in both cabinet design and grow methods, but thanks to a lot of discussion and review with some friends, I think I have a good concept together - here it is in a nutshell:

1. I'm planning a 600W High Pressure Sodium with a Lumatek Electronic Ballast. Light to be air cooled directly to fan. Fan to have Y-pipe intake - one side from light, the other side from bloom chamber.
2. A Vortek 250 CFM inline fan w/ speed controller. (3' x 5' x 6' = 90 cubic feet.) Mounted to roof. I figger if I dial down the fan w/ the speed controller, it should be pretty quiet inside the cabinet.
3. Planning to cut a hole in the roof to mount carbon filter for external exhaust into garage.
4. Planning to section off part of the cabinet for mother chamber w/ separate lighting. Mothers to be grown in soil.
5. Flow thru air intake to be taken in thru angled PVC, similar to design in "Marijuana Stealth Cabinet." Air enters mother chamber thru several, bent 2" PVC lines, gets sucked into bloom chamber thru more bent PVC, and then exhausted by Vortek.
6. Planning to use deep water culture on pretty standard system (it's my first attempt at full hydro system). Probably use a couple of rubbermaids w/ hole cut in the tops.
7. Planning to use standard 3-part General Hydroponics nutrient system, with water changes every two weeks. I'll also be pH testing this time around! (Yeah - I'm learning!) It's my understanding that to set pH, test and adjust water (will be using tap) to neutral 7.0, then add nutes, which will bring pH into the desireable range?
8. Will likely get some kind of pump to offload the water mix, and pump in new, along with a spare rubbermaid to make life easier.

Anyways, I'm still in the planning stages. Stealth is a CRITICAL FACTOR! Sorry - no pics yet (digital camera bit it), but I'll post some when it's done. I'm actually really psyched to get the project going! Keep the Federation free!!!

 

[herbal essences]

When you mix your nutrients mix everything then ph the mixture

 

[bbing]

not so fast Captain!

not so fast Captain!

you should really do a water analysis and then determine water source and products. becuase i know you havent you lazy bastard

If your water is tap from colorado river for instance, it will have both a high general hardness (GH) and a high carbonate hardness (KH). The challenge will be buffering the alkalinity of the water so that you achieve a stable ph somewhere between 5.8 and 6.2 w/o drift. Additionally, I have heard it is not uncommon for water districts to use phosphates (PO4) to "grease" up the lines due to the clogging from all the hard minerals and deposits that accumulate.

BigTokes thread is required reading for you. PM when your finished.
BigTokes Water Chemestry 101

 

[anonymiss12345]

...Stealth is a CRITICAL FACTOR! Sorry...

How stealth? Just enough for a landlord to stick his head in the door and not see anything suspicious or the odd visitor that steps into the "wrong" room while looking for the bathroom? = Easy.
Or enough for a visitor sitting in the room and being non the wiser? = Difficult/more careful design required.

 

[icough2getoff]

Since stealth is a critical factor put a small, loud fan on top of your cabinet and tell people the white noise helps you sleep or something. A fish tank with a loud air pump next to it might be another option. You may not be able to hear your fan but you will hear a slight wooshing of air so you'll need to find something to cover up the sound.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Hi All,

First of all, thanks to everyone for their thoughts.

Herbal: I'll remember to do that.
Anonymiss: It's in the garage - stealthy enough to not be heard if the door is open and I'm talking to a neighbor in the driveway.
ICough: I like the white noise idea, even though the cabinet is in the garage. I've had this problem before with snoopy neighbors, but I think that dialing down a 250cfm Vortek should keep things under the radar.

 

[bbing]

testing your tap will bust your cherry.

everyone....a moment of silence, for this sacred moment will be the first of many thousands of tests to come. JK. Just think of it as your baseline test. that way you will know w/ little experimentation where your at, and where you have to get to (if you even have to go anywhere).

buy the liquid ph tester (ghetto as we gotta be). Must be wide-range look on ebay. Most aquarium applications are in the higher end, there are some for folks who keep more acid tanks like So. America stuff.

get an TDS or EC meter. The thread i posted to BigToke's is no joke. Abit much to get through first time but a re-read or too and your gonna get it. I know it hurts the brain, but the reward will quell it...and put out the flames. lol

you better hope there is no elite strain called "Klingon"

 

[Tony Danza]

I think the 2" pvc intakes will be too small for your purposes, they are approprietly sized for a 150w ngb cab, but a 600 will be harder to cool and the resistance of the 2" pipes will make your fan louder and less efficient. I would go with at least 3" pvc elbows if not 4" (like 3 or 4 of them). Maybe you can pull half your air through the mother chamber and the other half strait into the bloom chamber.

Bbing is definitely over the top with his water testing. Just put a TDS meter in it, if it reads over 300ppm you have hard water, so you use hard water micronutrient instead of the regular stuff, you plants will tell you the rest. If you don't have a TDS meter, get one, DWC is the most needing of PH and TDS monitoring.

If you are going to go GH, go with the lucas formula 8ml micro + 16ml bloom. No grow bottle needed. It's a tried and true method that works well for beginners.

Peace and have fun.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Hi All,

Tony: Thanks for the suggestion on the intakes and testing. Seems like testing for TDS is the way to go.

All: Last night I took a tap water sample. Turns out that the spa test kit that I have uses strips, but tests for the following, and here's the results:
Total Bromine = 0
Free Chlorine = 0
Alkalinity = 120
pH = 8.5
Hardness = 100

This looks to me like the water is not too hard, but the pH is clearly off the hizzy! I'm going to start working on my cabinet today (it got damaged in a move, and I've seem lots of great ideas for improvement. Thanks again for all your help!

 

[Tony Danza]

That ph should come down pretty easy, mine starts at 7.8, by the time I add my nutes it's down to like 5.5 and comes up to 5.8 withing 12 hours or so without any adjustment.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Thanks Tony.

Got another question for you folks: I'm definitely going to use High Pressure Sodium w/ electronic ballast. What have you all heard about the extended spectrum bulbs? My goal is simply to get high quality bud - a difference of 5-10% is of course welcome, but not critical, especially if there is a large price difference in bulbs. Would anyone care to recommend a bulb/manufacturer?

Yesterday I was at Lowe's getting parts and had an epiphany - I was going to buy a couple of 2 foot flourescent fixtures for my mommy chamber, but I came across a 3 bulb bathroom fixture for $12.00. I made the decision to use CFLs right there. My Mommy Box will only be about 2.5-3 sq. ft., which means I need about 120 watts total - 3 60 watt CFLs would give me 180 watts - probably plenty. the question is: what kind of CFLs for the Mommy Box - bright white or warm (more red in the spectrum?)? Or mix 'em up?

Ok, as I'm writing, I keep thinking of more questions. Here's another one: Beneficial Bacteria. I just read Big Toke's posts on this subject (there's no denying the logic - beneficial bacteria are critical to soil based systems). Where would one obtain beneficial bacteria for a DWC hydro system - my local Hydro store?

Thanks,

 

[turdcat]

Some of the best growers prefer only metal halide, slightly less yield but higher quality finished product. I know DJ Short has mentioned this. Rolanterroy has said the same thing.
EYE Lighting brand by Iwasaki is top quality. Their 6500K halide is really nice, but I believe it tops out at 400Watts. The owner of American Agritech really likes the 6500K for all sorts of plants. 6500K is known as a more natural sunlight spectrum.
I hope no one wants to debate HPS vs MH, this is just the opinion of some vets.

 

[Tony Danza]

You want the "daylight" cfls for your mothers, I believe they are rated 5000k or thereabouts. And when you say 60w cfl, I believe you are referring to the incandescent equivalent and not the actual wattage as 60w cfls generally cannot be screwed into a standard fixture, or easily found for that matter. Your "60 watt" cfl is probably just a 13-18w cfl, and the smaller number is the one we pay attention to here. The biggest cfls that can be easily acquired is the 40 watt (claims to be 200w equivalent), although I've found the 32's to be more reliable. If you really did find a standard base 60w at Lowes, then I want to know what aisle, cuz I want one.

That being said, a three bulb fixture full of 26-32w bulbs will keep a small mom happy no problem.

 

[Tony Danza]

I would save the beneficial bacteria for a later grow, dwc will keep you busy enough managing water level, temp, ph, and nute levels for your first grow. Your understanding of the plant will expand many times what it is now just from seeing one crop through to the end.

Not to sweep beneficials aside as unimportant, I just feel they fall into the category of things that make good growers better and not things that novices need to worry about.

Remember KISS--Keep It Simple Stupid.

 

[bbing]

Some of the best growers prefer only metal halide, slightly less yield but higher quality finished product. I know DJ Short has mentioned this. Rolanterroy has said the same thing.
EYE Lighting brand by Iwasaki is top quality. Their 6500K halide is really nice, but I believe it tops out at 400Watts. The owner of American Agritech really likes the 6500K for all sorts of plants. 6500K is known as a more natural sunlight spectrum.
I hope no one wants to debate HPS vs MH, this is just the opinion of some vets.

mine too. MH gives you a advantage in veg particulalry, and i am convinced in the nuance of light spectrum as it relates to floral development also. It is the closest HID to the full spectrum of natty sunlight. Sodium gives an edge in floral production (mass). I run 600w Sodium w/ (2) 96watt CFL's (the old coralife 6500 bulbs for planted tanks) and try to enhance the spectrum abit while I wait for LED lighting to work out the kinks. Then we will be able to interface to lighting "scripts" that emulate the very best spectrum dynamically changing throughout the course of the photoperiod of course. I like to think the closer we get to Nature with our systems; the better we are at tapping every bit of evolutionary adaptation that has occure in this plant for let say several million years or more.



re: bacters
you will have these in any dwc that is not toxic anyway. it feels like slippery water, kinda viscous. BTW there is no more simple way to encourage bacter growth than to use a bacter friendly substrate like lava that can be purchased anywhere.

re: CFL's. Get T5's cut your heat and subsequent need to remove it. You will find this will cut the complexity of your air handeling a bit and be cheaper to run in the long run. Keeping moms doesn't require tremendous wattages anyway.

 

[Quazi]

Lowe's and other hardware stores sell multi-socketed, wired setups for cheap. They're called "vanity fixtures." They usually come in 3, 4 or 5-socketed setups. You'll find 'em with the bathroom lighting probably.

Each socket is rated for 60W on the one that I got.

So, theoretically you could run 180W for each 3-fer vanity fixture. I used the 3-fer vanity fixture x 2. I've got 6x23W daylight CFLs for veg and it works great:






As far as the spectrum: go towards the bluer side for veg. The bluer side of the spectrum is known to reduce stretch. Also, if you think about the light quality outside during the beginning of the growing season, it is bluer than the reds of the harvest season.

I use a single 3-inch cooling fan to keep air blowing on them and as you can see in the pictures above, the air is removed from the chamber from the area surrounding where the sockets are dropped in. Here's the fan in place and working:


Rest of the plan sounds pretty good. However, you stated that you were worried about stealth and I haven't read anything about controlling smell yet.

In addition, hard-mounting your blower causes vibration noise. You should look at some threads about insulator boxes or hanging blowers to prevent this.

You're on the right track. Good luck in your travels!

-Q

 

[CaptainKirk]

Hi Again All,

Fist of all, thanks to everyone for your thoughts - it is much appreciated. It's nice to have a sounding board for ideas for a change. My latest update is that last weekend I performed major surgery on my cabinet, and managed to get it repaired. Had to tip it on it's back, and virtually disassemble the entire bottom and re-assemble the entire floor. If you've ever worked with 5/8" melamine, you'l know what I'm talking about - that thing has got to weigh 300 lbs. easy! It takes two just to slide it across the floor!

Tony: I hear ya loud and clear - you're probably right - better to start simple, and get a plan for what works worked out. I have to admit - I'm looking for my first good, disease and pest free grow with solid results - doesn't have to be spectacular, but of course, who am I to argue with spectacular! Yes - you were right on CFL wattages - the ones I bought at Costco for my house are 60 watt equivalents - they really are rated at 13 watts. So I'm thinking that 3 60 watt equivalents will be just about perfect, but the bathroom fixture is rated for 60 watts each - lots of room to upgrade to larger CFLs!

Quazi: Thanks for stopping by! Yeah - we're on the exact same wavelength. A 3 socket bathroom fixture is exactly what I got - should be about perfect. Saw your pics - the hanging computer fan cracks me up, but as my friend says - "ghetto as we gotta be!" On stealth: yes - I've seen a few posts on noise and oder control. Yes - I'll probably be suspending the fan, and it's going to eventually blow through a carbon filter.

Yeah - I can visualize the first crop already. Long Live the Federation!

 

[bbing]

just keep browsing grow diary's (sp?)
any flaw in your thinking or design can be found there.
if you want good results; hang with those who demonstrate them.
there is too much risk involved not to pursue the greatest result.

MH vs. HPS vs. CFLs - 6 100 watt equivalent CFLs would produce much less heat and consume much less power. That would be exactly the 600 watts I'm looking for

some have been quite successful with that around here.
there is a definite advantage in flower with HID.
most CFL nuts are kinda specialists. We need them for sure. However I consider them more of the frontiersman of small space growers.

LED's will be where its at. I assure you all. patience. In th mean time, rip it up with the CFL's.

BTW you have seen my mom cab. had that running that way for about 5 yrs.
w/ just 2 cfl's & 1 T5.

 

[CaptainKirk]

Hi Again All,

OK, so here's my latest thoughts:

(1) Everyone seems to agree that blooming under HIDs produces better results than CFLs. I'm not sure everyone agrees, but MH seems to produce better quality, but not as much bud than HPS.
(2) I'm researching Lumatek ballasts to see if they offer a switchable model that will accomodate both MH and HPS in the 600 watt range. So far I've not found an answer on this.
(3) I will definitely be using CFLs in the Mommy Box. Will probably start construction next weekend. Wired up and tested the fixture today - success on the first try!

So, now here's my latest questions again:

(1) How should someone start up a DWC grow once all the hardware is assembled? Do the nutes need to circulate for a few days before introducing plants, or can I just dump 'em right in to the hydroton pebbles after setting up the nutes and pH adjustment? I did just read a post regarding hydroton moving up the pH constantly if not pre-soaked in pH adjusted water for a while.
(2) Seems quite a few people recommend not re-using the hydroton - can hydroton be easily cleaned and re-used somehow?

By the way, you folks should check out the thread called "IC is Boring as Shit" by So Quick - that boy has mad skills!!!

Live Long and Prosper

 

[bbing]

no 600w MH's. There is however a conversion bulb. More $ though.

i remeber SQ from OG days.
i also remeber epic battles between him and his bucket adversary Krusty.
these guys used to go off w/ super huge yields.