Volatile organics stimulation, fatty acids, and Lactobacillus

[Dr.Mantis]

Small update. I’ve been steadily increasing the goat milk ferment concentration in the spray. Right now I’m at 50ml/L of water. I think I’ll keep it here. This makes a suspensions that looks like chalky water.

On the plant side I also noticed some interesting observations. That weird barnyard smell is gone. The Thousand Oaks lady upfront has a sort of peppery smell to the un disturbed flower. Earlier on she had that sort of generic weed smell. I don’t know if this has anything to do with the spray, or rather the natural lifecycle of the plant. The tri chrome development looks good to me, and senescence is starting to show up in the fan leaves. All good to me so far!


GH cheese

TO pheno 1

TO pheno 2

 

[Dirtynugs]

It will be interesting to see the results of your experiment. Hopefully you dont end up with even fruitier weed, as fruity flavors are carboxylic acids esters and thiols also: ethyl hexanoate is apple for example, while 3‑sulfanyl-1-hexanol is a tropical fruit aroma.

I was taught that bacteria are not good decomposers of lipids; a symbiotic culture of yeast fungi and bacteria might offer unique results. With that said, Ive dumped grape kefir (tibicos culture,no milk) in pots before, and the smell taken up was roughly that of the ferment, but not in a good way. I never flowered let alone cured any of the plants after they took on the rotten grape smell (not wine, not ferment,but like a horrible science project).

There was an old discussion on this very forum, where at least some contributors were stating the addition of precursors to soil, namely olivetoic acid, does not correlate to an increase of plant metabolite. Many farms do in fact feed precursors back into rows on a variety by variety basis, along with companion plants who have one purpose: To exude carbon sources into the soil in the form of flavor precursors. Someone somewhere has surely done a comparison, adding fruit (primary and secondary metabolites) to orchards vs adding leaves and stems (precursors).

Ive also seen farms tinker with the concept of Precursor Atmosphere Technology, which cannabis seems a ripe (no pun intended) candidate for. The closest thing to post harvest treatment Ive seen in the Cannabis sector is artificially scented cannabis, gassed with generic terpenes that dont have much to do with cannabis at all. The end result is abominable, honestly.

Its worth noting that Cannabis does not smell or taste like the terpenes which cannabis labs commonly test for, and that artificially scented cannabis will never have a cannabis flavor, as Cannabis flavor is the result of primary, not secondary metabolism. Any pathway in the Cannabis plant directly responsible for secondary metabolites (which seem to be mostly pest deterrents rather than pollinator/seed spreader attractors) is seemingly a waste of energy to the plant unless the plant is under attack by pest and pathogen. This seems to show a trend in Cannabis production, where breeders are breeding for secondary plant defense instead of fertilizing for a strong immune system with spare primary resources that increasingly stink the more they break down, and increase in flavor as the resin becomes more acidic, releasing more aromas and flavors in a perpetual loop of dankness for months on end. Look at the weight and sensory perception characteristics of the common Cannabis terpenes which do not describe Cannabis. They are not desirable products and contribute to the hole in the ozone layer more so than contributing to Cannabis flavor. The only "attacks" I want on my Cannabis are photoxidation and other lipoxygenase related processes. Nowhere has it ever been shown that a ctirus tree will be sweeter or more sour with the addition of pests and disease. Nor has it been legitimately proven that a single isolated limonoid in the fruit peel is responsible for the distinct aroma of a citrus variety. This myth is from a 1919 study which has been debunked long ago. Cannabis will be no different. Lots of bad science to debunk, a hundred years worth at least.


The chemistry is so complex, how so many natural products can derive from a handful of pathways with seemingly hand crafted precision, it would take a collaborative effort between a trained flavorist, an experienced organic chemist, and a legitimate pot aficionado to crack the surface of guided Cannabis metabolism. Oh, and they'll need a microbiologist too,since Cannabis plants are the perfect example of the holobiont concept; the plant, essentially an amusement park built by microbes for microbes.

Unfortunately not many experts in these fields are willing to discuss these topics openly with the Cannabis community, when the only interest from the cannabis community is a bottled end product, as youve seen by the obviously annoyed posters here.

 

[Ca++]

Rice is notorious for carrying bad bacteria, and while a x40 view offers proof of life, it's about 1000x where species are typically viewed.

What was the rice even for? Shouldn't you be following Kefir brewing methods.


We had a product removed after a couple of years, as it literally turned to shit. It was one of them brew at home 2 part things. Initial testing was good, but a later report showed why it had stopped working. Mostly a bacteria, we shit out.

 

[Dr.Mantis]

It will be interesting to see the results of your experiment. Hopefully you dont end up with even fruitier weed, as fruity flavors are carboxylic acids esters and thiols also: ethyl hexanoate is apple for example, while 3‑sulfanyl-1-hexanol is a tropical fruit aroma.

I was taught that bacteria are not good decomposers of lipids; a symbiotic culture of yeast fungi and bacteria might offer unique results. With that said, Ive dumped grape kefir (tibicos culture,no milk) in pots before, and the smell taken up was roughly that of the ferment, but not in a good way. I never flowered let alone cured any of the plants after they took on the rotten grape smell (not wine, not ferment,but like a horrible science project).

There was an old discussion on this very forum, where at least some contributors were stating the addition of precursors to soil, namely olivetoic acid, does not correlate to an increase of plant metabolite. Many farms do in fact feed precursors back into rows on a variety by variety basis, along with companion plants who have one purpose: To exude carbon sources into the soil in the form of flavor precursors. Someone somewhere has surely done a comparison, adding fruit (primary and secondary metabolites) to orchards vs adding leaves and stems (precursors).

Ive also seen farms tinker with the concept of Precursor Atmosphere Technology, which cannabis seems a ripe (no pun intended) candidate for. The closest thing to post harvest treatment Ive seen in the Cannabis sector is artificially scented cannabis, gassed with generic terpenes that dont have much to do with cannabis at all. The end result is abominable, honestly.

Its worth noting that Cannabis does not smell or taste like the terpenes which cannabis labs commonly test for, and that artificially scented cannabis will never have a cannabis flavor, as Cannabis flavor is the result of primary, not secondary metabolism. Any pathway in the Cannabis plant directly responsible for secondary metabolites (which seem to be mostly pest deterrents rather than pollinator/seed spreader attractors) is seemingly a waste of energy to the plant unless the plant is under attack by pest and pathogen. This seems to show a trend in Cannabis production, where breeders are breeding for secondary plant defense instead of fertilizing for a strong immune system with spare primary resources that increasingly stink the more they break down, and increase in flavor as the resin becomes more acidic, releasing more aromas and flavors in a perpetual loop of dankness for months on end. Look at the weight and sensory perception characteristics of the common Cannabis terpenes which do not describe Cannabis. They are not desirable products and contribute to the hole in the ozone layer more so than contributing to Cannabis flavor. The only "attacks" I want on my Cannabis are photoxidation and other lipoxygenase related processes. Nowhere has it ever been shown that a ctirus tree will be sweeter or more sour with the addition of pests and disease. Nor has it been legitimately proven that a single isolated limonoid in the fruit peel is responsible for the distinct aroma of a citrus variety. This myth is from a 1919 study which has been debunked long ago. Cannabis will be no different. Lots of bad science to debunk, a hundred years worth at least.


The chemistry is so complex, how so many natural products can derive from a handful of pathways with seemingly hand crafted precision, it would take a collaborative effort between a trained flavorist, an experienced organic chemist, and a legitimate pot aficionado to crack the surface of guided Cannabis metabolism. Oh, and they'll need a microbiologist too,since Cannabis plants are the perfect example of the holobiont concept; the plant, essentially an amusement park built by microbes for microbes.

Unfortunately not many experts in these fields are willing to discuss these topics openly with the Cannabis community, when the only interest from the cannabis community is a bottled end product, as youve seen by the obviously annoyed posters here.

Thanks Dirtynugs,

It’s true that most bacteria don’t produce or consume lipids at the same rate as fungi. However, there is some literature out there demonstrating hexanoate synthesis from lactobacillus plantarum. Also, just a speculation but I figured after the sugar was consumed in the milk, the bacteria might hydrolyze the lipids for the glycerol backbone, liberating the fatty acids. I have been watering the plants with this solution as well, and so far no off smells, but time will tell. There is an interesting paper I need to dig up that shows root application of hexanoate stimulates terpene production in cannabis. Other papers show that root absorbed hexanoic acid is not mobile, so it seems the effect is through the activation or deactivation of some pathways.

I do have some methyl lineolate I made a while ago, I was contemplating olivetic acid but it seems like it’s not very bioactive in cannabis. I believe a combination lineolate and the right conc of jasmonate could really amp up the secondary metabolite biosynthesis. I plan on testing that, but one thing at a time.

I agree on the terpene side of things as well, it’s too bad that’s all labs test for. The volatile esters, ketones, thio compounds, and amines are much more interesting to me.

I was able to find a very interesting paper that probes the use of certain conditions to increase non protein thiols, which I am amped to try, however it’s still in the planning stages. I agree on the lipid oxidation side of things, this is where all the interesting molecules are made. I’ve been running uva/uvb for about 6hrs a day during this grow, and I believe it’s helping. Going forward I think one potential pathway forward is to grow as healthy plants as possible, free from nitrates. In this way, when photosynthesis is leaving excessive, plants will start to accumulate lipids. Then during flowering, inducing oxidative stress through certain mechanisms should set the plant up for plenty of interesting secondary metabolites.

I do wish there was more research into this. I have a background in biochem, and organic chemistry. However, I’m just a hobby grower trying to find that weed I miss. I’ll share everything as I go along here. My goal isn’t to make some magic juice and sell it for $100 a bottle. Rather I want to explore the amazing biology of cannabis, and hopefully inspire others as well.

FYI, I’ve got a lot of things I plan on testing. Here are some things I think are worth investigating more:
Chitosan application and timing
Methyl jasmonate
Methyl lineolate
Hexanoic acid
Methyl lineolate epoxide

If anyone is interested in how some commercial products are made. I do have easy methods for polyaspartic acid ( commercial product “flavuh”), and chitosan oligosacharide.

Thank you for the discussion!

 

[Dr.Mantis]

Rice is notorious for carrying bad bacteria, and while a x40 view offers proof of life, it's about 1000x where species are typically viewed.

What was the rice even for? Shouldn't you be following Kefir brewing methods.


We had a product removed after a couple of years, as it literally turned to shit. It was one of them brew at home 2 part things. Initial testing was good, but a later report showed why it had stopped working. Mostly a bacteria, we shit out.

The 40x objective equates to 400x mag with the camera lens. I also viewed with 100x objective, but I couldn’t get a good photo at that magnification with the little fellas moving around.

Yes, rice can harbor “bad” microbes. However, at pH 3.7. Very of the bad guys can reproduce, let alone survive. Rice has been traditionally used in Korean natural farming as a microbe source. I wanted some wild microbes in the mix, along with the domesticated lacto. Although this is similar to kefir or yogurt, that’s not what I was after. I was looking for an array of microbes that could potentially liberate the fatty acids (particularly hexanoic ) from the goat milk. Definitely don’t drink it!!!

 

[X15]

Cool write up. Glad LABs is working out for ya.
May I ask what you used to adjust your water ph to 6.4?
have you played around with using your LABs to adjust down your ph?

 

[Dr.Mantis]

Cool write up. Glad LABs is working out for ya.
May I ask what you used to adjust your water ph to 6.4?
have you played around with using your LABs to adjust down your ph?

I’m not sure it’s necessary, but I was concerned moving the LAB from pH 3.7 to the natural pH of my tap water (pH) 8.4 would shock or kill some of the little dudes. since pH is a log scale, my tap water was over 1000x more more alkaline.

I noticed small amounts of LAB solution did not effect pH (10-20ml) / gallon. However later on, larger amount like 50ml did effectively drop the pH. It also depends on the buffer capacity of you starting water you wish to correct.

@X15 sorry I just realized I missed your question. I used citric acid to adjust my tap water pH

 

[X15]

I’m not sure it’s necessary, but I was concerned moving the LAB from pH 3.7 to the natural pH of my tap water (pH) 8.4 would shock or kill some of the little dudes. since pH is a log scale, my tap water was over 1000x more more alkaline.

I noticed small amounts of LAB solution did not affect pH (10-20ml) / gallon. However later on, larger amount like 50ml did effectively drop the pH. It also depends on the buffer capacity of you starting water you wish to correct.

Forsure Bud. That’s why I was wondering what your approach was.

 

[Dr.Mantis]

Little update,

I’ve been watering as needed with the solution. When I water to the point of runoff, you can certainly get whiffs of goat cheese, but that seems to disappear after a few hours. Flower wise, the plants are stacking quite nicely. The overall smell of the tent is strong, and the carbon filter is getting a little overwhelmed in the room, especially when things get warm later in the day. I gave the TO lady a smell, and it’s sort of peppery and earthy with some sweetness. However, after walking away my hands smell overwhelming of rubber. It reminds me of the smell you get on your hands when wearing latex gloves for a few hours, and it doesn’t wash off with soap and water.


With the leftover goat milk mix, I have also been watering some of my clones. They seem to really like it, here are two of the 92 Mexican skunk ladys who have been drinking extra mix.

 

[mexweed]

there isn't a grow light that exists that can match the sun's impact on breaking down organics and the plant's utilization of it, being outside in open air is also a huge contrast to indoor environments as far as organics is concerned

 

[Dr.Mantis]

Update,

I’ve been continuing the spray, and also using it to water the plants. 1 liter of the fermented goat milk has lasted quite a while. There is defiantly some funk building, I get whiffs of skunky/rubber type smells - especially in the morning and evening, even with the carbon filter. No way to know if the spray is contributing to this without a control.

The ladies seems very happy though and are looking very frosty.

“skunk” seed run and pheno hunt

GH cheese

TO pheno 2

TO pheno 1

 

[Dr.Mantis]

Did my last watering and spray with the lacto solution last night. I’m probably about two weeks out from harvest and don’t want to be smoking goat yogurt microresidue.

The ladies stink in a good way, and I am very impressed. I have no idea if the lacto help, without having a control. However, I can say it certainly didn’t harm anything.

 

[X15]

Lookin good bud.
So you have only been using the LABs in a foliar spray correct? Have you done any soil watering with the LABs?
Plants seems to be cruising along nicely.

 

[Dr.Mantis]

Lookin good bud.
So you have only been using the LABs in a foliar spray correct? Have you done any soil watering with the LABs?
Plants seems to be cruising along nicely.

Thanks man,

I have been spraying the LAB in foliar, and using the leftover spray to water. It’s interesting, one of the papers that used hexanoic acid mentioned that it stays localized in the roots, but activates a response in all of the plant. I’m not sure if the foliar spray has any unique contribution, but the ladies seem happy. Also, 0 pm this run. I wonder if the LAB is colonized the plant and made it too competitive ?

 

[X15]

Thanks man,

I have been spraying the LAB in foliar, and using the leftover spray to water. It’s interesting, one of the papers that used hexanoic acid mentioned that it stays localized in the roots, but activates a response in all of the plant. I’m not sure if the foliar spray has any unique contribution, but the ladies seem happy. Also, 0 pm this run. I wonder if the LAB is colonized the plant and made it too competitive ?

That’s great bud. It’s awesome we have so many ancient tools around to learn from.
I’ve been using labs for a number of things not just plant related. But regarding plants, I will often foliar spray clones or young veg plants… but usually when their roots aren’t as developed as I’d like. Large veg or flowering times I resort to soil applications now. I seem to get a better result all around when healthy roots in soil have at it. Lately I’ve really enjoyed using LABs to pre digest any food I’m feeding. It really allows for a faster response and a lot lower ratios. I like to keep my plants as lean as I can and LABs is great for that.
Thank you for the info you posted here. Interesting to see what a large dose of LAb funk will do for a flowering plant.

 

[Dr.Mantis]

That’s great bud. It’s awesome we have so many ancient tools around to learn from.
I’ve been using labs for a number of things not just plant related. But regarding plants, I will often foliar spray clones or young veg plants… but usually when their roots aren’t as developed as I’d like. Large veg or flowering times I resort to soil applications now. I seem to get a better result all around when healthy roots in soil have at it. Lately I’ve really enjoyed using LABs to pre digest any food I’m feeding. It really allows for a faster response and a lot lower ratios. I like to keep my plants as lean as I can and LABs is great for that.
Thank you for the info you posted here. Interesting to see what a large dose of LAb funk will do for a flowering plant.

Very interesting! I think I’ll try root watering one of the plants with a big dose a week before harvest. I’ve also used some of the leftovers to water some clones, and they seemed to really like it.

Funny you should mention pre digesting food sources for the plants. I’ve been using whole soybeans pre disgusted with aspergillus, dried, and powdered. The ladies love it, and no burn from the N. I’m experimenting now with aspergillus fermented hemp hearts as a fertilizer. If it works, I’ll put up a guide with photos. I like it because I can supply all the npk and micros without buying overpriced “organic” fertilizer. We can quite literally turn cheap bulk food, or waste into very bio active plant available food for very low cost/effort.

 

[X15]

For sure. The dose I’ve settled on with the lab products I’ve been making are about 15-30ml/ gal.
Thats great you are free of the damn bottle! Haha it feels good doesn’t it. I’ve been maintaining an Outdoor veggie and herb garden for some years now and always have a section of it dedicated to stuff to aid in my soil adventures. So I always have something fresh and available to ferment or dry for later pulverizing and amending. always have a mix of stock for my vermicompost.

 

[Dr.Mantis]

For sure. The dose I’ve settled on with the lab products I’ve been making are about 15-30ml/ gal.
Thats great you are free of the damn bottle! Haha it feels good doesn’t it. I’ve been maintaining an Outdoor veggie and herb garden for some years now and always have a section of it dedicated to stuff to aid in my soil adventures. So I always have something fresh and available to ferment or dry for later pulverizing and amending. always have a mix of stock for my vermicompost.

I’ve used up to about 100ml per gallon, but the pH usually needs adjusting. I’ll give it a shot on the next water on one of the plants, then the others can be the control.

It sure is nice to use leftovers. I pretty much look in my pantry and think “hmmm what can I turn into fertilizer?” Seeds work well in my opinion since they are biologically little nutrient packs surrounding a plant embryo. I’ve also got some coffee grounds fermenting away with aspergillus. Looking at a paper, I really dig the nutrient ratios in spent coffee grounds as a general purpose food/amendment.

 

[halo56]

Thanks Dirtynugs,

It’s true that most bacteria don’t produce or consume lipids at the same rate as fungi. However, there is some literature out there demonstrating hexanoate synthesis from lactobacillus plantarum. Also, just a speculation but I figured after the sugar was consumed in the milk, the bacteria might hydrolyze the lipids for the glycerol backbone, liberating the fatty acids. I have been watering the plants with this solution as well, and so far no off smells, but time will tell. There is an interesting paper I need to dig up that shows root application of hexanoate stimulates terpene production in cannabis. Other papers show that root absorbed hexanoic acid is not mobile, so it seems the effect is through the activation or deactivation of some pathways.

I do have some methyl lineolate I made a while ago, I was contemplating olivetic acid but it seems like it’s not very bioactive in cannabis. I believe a combination lineolate and the right conc of jasmonate could really amp up the secondary metabolite biosynthesis. I plan on testing that, but one thing at a time.

I agree on the terpene side of things as well, it’s too bad that’s all labs test for. The volatile esters, ketones, thio compounds, and amines are much more interesting to me.

I was able to find a very interesting paper that probes the use of certain conditions to increase non protein thiols, which I am amped to try, however it’s still in the planning stages. I agree on the lipid oxidation side of things, this is where all the interesting molecules are made. I’ve been running uva/uvb for about 6hrs a day during this grow, and I believe it’s helping. Going forward I think one potential pathway forward is to grow as healthy plants as possible, free from nitrates. In this way, when photosynthesis is leaving excessive, plants will start to accumulate lipids. Then during flowering, inducing oxidative stress through certain mechanisms should set the plant up for plenty of interesting secondary metabolites.

I do wish there was more research into this. I have a background in biochem, and organic chemistry. However, I’m just a hobby grower trying to find that weed I miss. I’ll share everything as I go along here. My goal isn’t to make some magic juice and sell it for $100 a bottle. Rather I want to explore the amazing biology of cannabis, and hopefully inspire others as well.

FYI, I’ve got a lot of things I plan on testing. Here are some things I think are worth investigating more:
Chitosan application and timing
Methyl jasmonate
Methyl lineolate
Hexanoic acid
Methyl lineolate epoxide

If anyone is interested in how some commercial products are made. I do have easy methods for polyaspartic acid ( commercial product “flavuh”), and chitosan oligosacharide.

Thank you for the discussion!

Hello! I would definitely be interested to learn how FlaVUH is made, yes please!

 

[Probiomer]

Hello! I would definitely be interested to learn how FlaVUH is made, yes please!

I am interested too. But i am wondering if its worth it. I have just found this and it seems cheap enough.

PolyAspartic Acid (PASP), High Active Fertilizer Synergist

PolyAspartic Acid obtained by polymerization of Aspartic Acid. The production process guarantees the presence of pure amino acids and high nitrogen and organic matter. Used as multi-functional fertilizer, combined with NPK or used as drip irrigation, soaking seeds, root treatment and foliar...

www.marknature.com