Virus,Mites or Something Else

[Barryshitpeas]

Hi,
I've been having a reoccurring issue now for the last couple of grows, first noticed when seeing this leaf.

At the same time as this i had two older plants in another tent which had been showing odd issues,
Dimples in leafs


At the time I thought it was fungus gnat related and did a soil drench with Spinosad and put down some gnat nix as a barrier and put tights around the air pots and placed yellow stickies,

In short It was not fungus gnats.
(no fliers appeared , root zone inspected after being cut down)

 

[Barryshitpeas]

Older plants went down hill rather fast after noticing the first leaf issue

Here below prior to older plants being moved into a different tent

After older plants moved into other tent

A day later
All plants were cut down soon after pictures taken

 

[Barryshitpeas]

Environment had been monitored all well within range, a strict wet dry cycle had been maintained throughout.
Grown in 60/40 Peat/Coco Buffered Compost, so no input PHing required , although did check run off to see if buffer was working correctly , which it was.


After some more research seemed mites as in broad mites cyclamen mites and russet mites as well as Virus seemed to be the likely contenders.


I scoped a few of the effected leaves with a digital scope but didn't find any mites or eggs.


I should add i dont share clones in fact i've never even seen one in person, i havnt had anyone enter my grow area apart from me
and i quit smoking tobacco 2 years ago, live in the UK and mainly grow Autos from seed.


So before starting again i had a clear up and bought some predator mites (Amblyseius andersoni)
ordered some new seeds, soil, cleaned pots in Sodium Per carbonate.


Seemed to start off OK

 

[Barryshitpeas]

But didn't take long for weird issues to show.


Zoom in of above plant.

 

[Barryshitpeas]

These appeared on other plants within the same tent
same grow.

Again all plants were culled.
This time the symptoms to me appeared to match more with a Mosaic virus.
At this time i found the Mosaic virus Thread on here started by Wondering roman (no i didn't read the entire thread)
It mentioned the leaf eating itself bit similar to my main obvious symptom.
So was leaning more at it being viral.
Had a look as to what to clean up with, and 10% bleach , Milk,Virkon S Came top.

 

[Barryshitpeas]

So had another clean up using bleach and Virkon.
Started again
and in short same result

zoomed in of the above plant

not from above plant, but from same tent same grow



again culled all plants ,

 

[Barryshitpeas]

Had a look through previous grows to see if i could find anything
similar
on the very grow before all this started i had this.


I put it down to hot soil at the time ,but looks suspicious now.
but could this of been where it started ? or is it just nutrient burn from to hot soil...


Also of note at seedling stage i kept noticing 2 things that I've not before


turning up of edges but just at the base of the leaf.

and it doesn't show very well pictures but there is slight yellowing in-between the veins.


I've since had a more intense clean up
bleaching all walls, carpet cleaning , bought new pots different brand of soil , new watering cans ,buckets, nutrients anything that had been in contact with plants has been either replaced or cleaned with both bleach and Virkon about 3 or 4 times.


but i've since read the end of the mosaic thread and finding out the symptoms posted where in fact from mites, so now I'm not so confident.
Anyone seen anything like this ? or has any ideas/advice

it's more then welcome.


Thanks for taking the time to read.

 

[Teddybrae]

I don't know what the problem is, but as far as analysing the circumstances is concerned ... it seems likely a constant in yr growing regime is responsible. I mean something that's always the same from grow to grow.

So it's the brand of soil, the temp/humidity of your grow room, the quality of yr water/nutes ... a constant.

But I don't know, I 'm boiling down the issue ...

I must say those curled edges are strange in combination with golden centres that indicate good health!!! WTF ...

 

[elanius]

Sorry to see you struggling Barry, but I am sure you will find out eventually. As was said, there must be one constant in your regiment. Or you did not clean everything used for the grow, try to think of that maybe. You bought new seeds, did you changed the breeder as well? If this is virus its possible it is in the seedline, possibly more seedlines from the same breeder.
Some of the pics looks like broad mites damage, specificall the leafs with bumps and the serrations facing up close the petioles. But you mentioned no eggs/mites found...
If virus, it looks like either TMV or Hop Latent Virus, did you noticed slow grow, horizontal branching or very close internodes?

 

[Grapefruitroop]

we are all with u border!

I had to fight a BM infestation, and in some pics it looks like the effect of their toxic saliva.

It looks like, but of course I really can't point it for sure.
Those mites are very devastating and fast developing so it seems weird that the damage would be so limited and scattered like im seein in the pix....

The damage of their saliva can lasts weeks after their eradication and some genetics they just don't recover...

I always read that for a successful Pest management you have to FIRST kill the majority of the population with your chosen weapon and THEN apply predatory mites...cause sometimes the good guys can't keep the bad ones in check, and this will explain the scattered weirdness.....

Have you tried any trans laminar mitekiller treatment? like abamectin ?
In that way you could rule out the bug problems...

I hope you'll soon figure out what's up!

 

[GOT_BUD?]

I don't think that's a bug.

My first suspect is the buffered coco.

 

[aridbud]

Yes, environment (as in medium) can give you tell tale signs. Wish I could offer more info....suspect is your medium - the mutations.

 

[Oliver Pantsoff]

Not sure, but it looks like BM damage. Get some wettable sulfur, and spray 1 plant down to see if it helps...

Op

 

[Barryshitpeas]

What your saying about it being a constant makes sense with regards to seeds and soil not sure if any Temp's or RH could produce these sort of oddities alone, but i get your basic point.
I should add, I do understand VPD and in general the importance of environment.
And have data loggers logging Temps/RH at canopy level to make sure I can say with confidence That my environmental's haven't been anything other then ideal. (that orange thing hanging from a rope ratchet) I have heat mat's and thermostats, so roots are kept within optimum temps.

I even weight my pots and record weights, so i can given more accurate wet dry cycle.

Like I said i agree with you about the seeds and soil brand and have already purchased a different brands for next try.

I have two 4x4 tents , I Will use both for next go, and use new soil in one tent and old soil in the other.

But if I'm honest i dont think it's anything to do with the seeds or soil i mean they have to be eliminated as possibilities i get that..... but i bought say 2 bags of soil and then weeks/months later later 2 more and so on. basically over a long time period, surely other people would of noticed.
Same with the seeds.
Info about the soil i use

https://www.growell.co.uk/advice/buyers-guides/what-makes-tropic-products-truly-great-potting-mixes


On one of the grows i did check PH going in and altered all inputs to be the same as the soils buffer which in this case is 6.5 ,all came out at 6.5 buffer working fine from what i understand.
didn't see any difference at all.


In regards to a few of you mentioning early pics looking possibly like BM damage
again i agree.
the bumps in the leaves Like that i havnt seen since i should add.
I see winkles on pretty much most plants since, within in a grow but not like that early one with the bumps.


I will inspect seedlings with digital scope next go for sure with more detail, I was mainly checking the main fan leaves, since read they prefer new growth so will focus on that next time and i have purchased Something called NUKE EM thats apparently effective against broad mites if found.
But I'm not fussed about keeping the plants, i just grow auto's so I'm not even trying to save so beloved genetics here. i want to wipe whatever it is from my grow area.



As I'm growing auto's and i can't control when they go into flower, so i've avoided Mectin based products as i believe they aren't meant to be used in flower.
Plus pretty sure you need a licensee over here for them.

I'm not totally against using it specially for diagnose purposes.


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"the serrations facing up close the petioles"[/FONT]
I read somewhere this a sign the plant is under attack but i've not manage to cross reference It anywhere else. glad you linked that to BM as pretty sure it was in a Bm based topic i read it.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]

 

[trichrider]

what's in your water?
that's one thing you haven't addressed...no not the PH, the elements like iron, etc.
have you any idea? it might be worth a test.

 

[Mr D]

I see you have plants sitting on seedling heating mats, why?

If you have those seedling heating mats turned on that's probably the problem.

 

[Barryshitpeas]

I've had my water tested in the past, as i was consistently getting Magnesium def
This what they said.

"you sent us some water to be tested, it only arrived yesterday (post office randomness) hence the delay in getting the results back to you,

results are below values are in parts per million (mg/ltr) except pH which is of coarse in the pH scale (-log of the concentration of Hydrogen ions if you ever wanted to know).

Calcium............64 ppm

Magnesium......6 ppm

Sulphate...........4 ppm

Alkalinity ..........280 ppm

pH.....................7.45

This is a hard water.

Magnesium levels are lowish (range from 0 to 50+ with usual range between 2 and 20) and when compared to the amount of Calcium an ideal ratio of Ca to Mg is between 2.5 and 4 to 1.if your food does not have sufficient Mg this may cause problems assimilating enough Mg (essential to chlorophyll as Fe is to Haemoglobin).

If using our hard water soil food with this water gives final values for Ca of 84 ppm and Mg of 28 ppm giving a ration of 3;1 which is good.

When growing in soil I can see no other issues with this water.

Hope this helps"


I use there hard water nutrients no issue's In past grows, ratio's sorted.

I've screenshot-ed a more detailed break down of my tap water Details and uploaded

I dont think it's the water, but i guess i can give one plant on my next go, bottled water

with out to much effort.


"I see you have plants sitting on seedling heating mats, why?"


To keep the rootzone getting to cold , It's thermostatically controlled with a probe going into the substrate and set to 21c so the heat mat turns on and off to maintain that temp.
please read below as to why


"High or Cold Root Zone:
Keeping a steady temperature in the root zone is essential for happy roots. Cannabis doesn’t like big temperature oscillations and will most likely develop problems when faced with ones. Too much heat often becomes an issue when growing in hydroponic setups where heat decreases the ability of water to hold oxygen. Roots need oxygen to thrive, and they can easily get suffocated when exposed to high temperatures in hydro setups. Cold temperatures can also shock plants causing wilting and slowed growth.
Maintaining comfortable 22°C in the root zone will make your plants grow with no undesired side effects of temperature fluctuations. If struggling to do so, introduce additional air conditioning to your growing setup. It can be costly, but it can be a crop saver."

 

[Mr D]

I've had my water tested in the past, as i was consistently getting Magnesium def
This what they said.

"you sent us some water to be tested, it only arrived yesterday (post office randomness) hence the delay in getting the results back to you,

results are below values are in parts per million (mg/ltr) except pH which is of coarse in the pH scale (-log of the concentration of Hydrogen ions if you ever wanted to know).

Calcium............64 ppm

Magnesium......6 ppm

Sulphate...........4 ppm

Alkalinity ..........280 ppm

pH.....................7.45

This is a hard water.

Magnesium levels are lowish (range from 0 to 50+ with usual range between 2 and 20) and when compared to the amount of Calcium an ideal ratio of Ca to Mg is between 2.5 and 4 to 1.if your food does not have sufficient Mg this may cause problems assimilating enough Mg (essential to chlorophyll as Fe is to Haemoglobin).

If using our hard water soil food with this water gives final values for Ca of 84 ppm and Mg of 28 ppm giving a ration of 3;1 which is good.

When growing in soil I can see no other issues with this water.

Hope this helps"


I use there hard water nutrients no issue's In past grows, ratio's sorted.

I've screenshot-ed a more detailed break down of my tap water Details and uploaded
View Image

I dont think it's the water, but i guess i can give one plant on my next go, bottled water

with out to much effort.


"I see you have plants sitting on seedling heating mats, why?"


To keep the rootzone getting to cold , It's thermostatically controlled with a probe going into the substrate and set to 21c so the heat mat turns on and off to maintain that temp.
please read below as to why


"High or Cold Root Zone:
Keeping a steady temperature in the root zone is essential for happy roots. Cannabis doesn’t like big temperature oscillations and will most likely develop problems when faced with ones. Too much heat often becomes an issue when growing in hydroponic setups where heat decreases the ability of water to hold oxygen. Roots need oxygen to thrive, and they can easily get suffocated when exposed to high temperatures in hydro setups. Cold temperatures can also shock plants causing wilting and slowed growth.
Maintaining comfortable 22°C in the root zone will make your plants grow with no undesired side effects of temperature fluctuations. If struggling to do so, introduce additional air conditioning to your growing setup. It can be costly, but it can be a crop saver."

Unless you have some specific issue, Like wild temp fluctuations you don't need to heat the root zone. A 10 degree temp change from day to night if you are growing in soil is not a problem.

Just try turning them off for a week or two and see what happens.

 

[Barryshitpeas]

Would you care to explain, how keeping a consistent root temperature could cause my issue ?
like what process ?



Just turning off my heat mats going into The colder time of year, doesn't seem the best move to me.


https://www.maximumyield.com/is-root-zone-heating-really-necessary-part-one-the-basics/2/922

 

[Mr D]

Would you care to explain, how keeping a consistent root temperature could cause my issue ?
like what process ?



Just turning off my heat mats going into The colder time of year, doesn't seem the best move to me.


https://www.maximumyield.com/is-root-zone-heating-really-necessary-part-one-the-basics/2/922

Scan the forum paying attention to the grow diaries and let me know how successful soil growers here are using heat mats in veg or flower.

If grow space temps don't fluctuate more than 10 - 15 degrees your soil temps are not changing enough to warrant soil temp control measures.

I know one thing for sure...turning off the heating mats for a week or 2 will not kill your plants or slow down growth so it's worth a try. It's your garden bro you do what you want.