VIRUS in Tangie seeds-beware!

[OG Expressions]

Bananas were a great example to use.

Selective breeding on Commercially farmed crops for faster growing higher yields only, and relying on pesticides/fungicides to fight off disease and pests for many generations has led to rapid genetic decline and accelerated evolution in diseases and pests as well.

Survival breeds strength, lack thereof not so much.

Heres an article on soil depletion:
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/soil-depletion-and-nutrition-loss/

Well theres lots of people who breed fast heavy yield traits in cannabis. I dont think those are the most important charachteristics, so i dont select based of those things.

These no risk of whats happening to bananas happening to cannabis we have so many crosses of every kind. I dont think the genepool is getting bottlenecked it was but things are getting better as people are more aware

 

[OG Expressions]

Proper breeding techniques require growing out hundreds of plants
from a given cross or inbred line and keeping the best, tossing the rest. If you have a small pool of plants to select from, then you're right: tossing a variegated plant or even a runt will increase the probability of throwing away a potential "holy grail", but if you have hundreds of seedlings to grow out and select from, you have a much higher chance of finding a non-mutated plant that is also the holy grail. You'll end up with the best of both worlds: the next generation is selected against variegation/runts and you'll have only the holy grail/normal growing plants to carry on the genes. Previous breeders clearly didn't select against variegation, and the more you don't select, the worse it will be (ie. think of not selecting against hermi traits and how that affects future generations of plants).

Just because a plant was bred improperly in the past doesn't mean we should continue these practices. However, I understand the laws in many states and countries have really caused this issue since not everyone can legally start a field of 200 plants tomorrow and properly breed their plants. The laws have also artificially made cannabis seeds the most expensive seeds in the world, and real breeders don't want you to have a lot of their non-feminized seeds as they know you can potentially make something better with their genetics. In some cases, we have elites with high frequencies of hermi problems, runts, and variegation because we can't grow large numbers and select against that. Fortunately, the times are changingin many states and many countries, and our proper breeding practices should "come out of the closet" and catch up with the 21st century!

As we continue to bottleneck the cannabis gene pool, and we don't take care of genetic issues now, I expect to see more and more people in the future worrying about variegation in their plants and confusing variegation for virus, and virus for variegation. Maybe most don't see an issue today and most aren't looking into the future, but take a look at the cultivated banana, which is currently a global crisis due to a severe lack of genetic diversity in plantations: fungal diseases as well as banana bunchy top virus are wiping out massive numbers of fields worldwide. If everything continues as is in the cannabis world, and you don't have breeders infusing new genetics or selecting against potentially deleterious phenotypic expressions, we should expect to have similar disasters.

Variegation is not a result of improper breeding. This is not time to make assumptions first you thought its mosiac now improper breeding slow down. Variegation is like a birth mark dude its not a big deal. Sone plants it goes away with a lil calmag (og and chem) i have one right now doimg it. Im not in coco its hydro its just the 1 plant

Anyway slooooow down friend you are making very fast assumptions and thats not how things work. Verify facts not jump from 1 thing to another in a heartbeat

 

[meizzwang]

I'm certainly no expert in viruses, this is why I'm here, to learn from others' experiences and knowledge and share the knowledge I have from decades of experience

It is true, "improper breeding" is in the eye of the beholder: some would say breeding for stronger plants more fit for survival is improper because you aren't focused on what people want from these plants: potent, tasty, oustanding highs. Based on what is offered in seed form these days, breeders find that selfing and inbreeding is the way to go because you can get uniform seeds with the characteristics you've selected for (ie. tangie has outstanding terpenes), but inbreeding also increases the chances of mutations and unwanted phenotypes (ie. variegation under slightly stressful environments). The concept I'm talking about are multi-faceted and they're all tied together, there's no jumping happening here. Variegation is deemed harmless by some, but others observe it's indistinguishable from viruses, which poses a threat to cultivated Cannabis plants now and more importantly in the long term.

 

[meizzwang]

Well theres lots of people who breed fast heavy yield traits in cannabis. I dont think those are the most important charachteristics, so i dont select based of those things.

These no risk of whats happening to bananas happening to cannabis we have so many crosses of every kind. I dont think the genepool is getting bottlenecked it was but things are getting better as people are more aware

While it is great to know that some breeders are trying to improve the gene pool, that's happening on a relatively small scale. Trace the lineage of the vast majority of "in vogue" strains today, and you'll find skunk, northern lights, and haze (all original dutch strains) in their genetics somewhere down the line. That's only a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of all the original "wild" genetics that evolved before humans destroyed most of it via habitat destruction. While the problem with disease resistance isn't as apparent in Cannabis, it's there because everything shares similar genetics, we've selected for very big, dense buds that don't breath, and less diversity means less traits to adapt. Try flowering blueberry, Guerilla Glue, northern lights, tangie, etc. in cold wet weather for months on end, you'll eventually get bud rot.

Humans share the same problem: perhaps 10,000 years ago, our population was downsized and bottlenecked drastically. You can say today our diversity appears high since we have so many races and hybrids, yet we're all suceptible to cancer: if age doesn't get to us, cancer will. Imagine if we didn't have that bottleneck and we had variants of human ancestors that over a few hundred thousand years evolved resistance to cancer, and they didn't get wiped out during that bottleneck. Who knows what amazing traits we lost during that event. The concepts are parallel with human genetics and cannabis genetics, we're bottlenecked and all very closely related on a genetic level.

 

[OG Expressions]

While it is great to know that some breeders are trying to improve the gene pool, that's happening on a relatively small scale. Trace the lineage of the vast majority of "in vogue" strains today, and you'll find skunk, northern lights, and haze (all original dutch strains) in their genetics somewhere down the line. That's only a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a percent of all the original "wild" genetics that evolved before humans destroyed most of it via habitat destruction. While the problem with disease resistance isn't as apparent in Cannabis, it's there because everything shares similar genetics, we've selected for very big, dense buds that don't breath, and less diversity means less traits to adapt. Try flowering blueberry, Guerilla Glue, northern lights, tangie, etc. in cold wet weather for months on end, you'll eventually get bud rot.

Humans share the same problem: perhaps 10,000 years ago, our population was downsized and bottlenecked drastically. You can say today our diversity appears high since we have so many races and hybrids, yet we're all suceptible to cancer: if age doesn't get to us, cancer will. Imagine if we didn't have that bottleneck and we had variants of human ancestors that over a few hundred thousand years evolved resistance to cancer, and they didn't get wiped out during that bottleneck. Who knows what amazing traits we lost during that event. The concepts are parallel with human genetics and cannabis genetics, we're bottlenecked and all very closely related on a genetic level.

Well i have no problem buying seeds that please me. If its good ill buy any f gen, ix, outcross, s1, reg, fem i like variety. Dont worry soneof us are preserving all sorts of goodies. I myself have some landrace bangladeshi seeds, quite a few obscure thi gs. Do t worry the gene pool is fine stop reading and believing all that stuff people are running on about theres all sorts of breeders from closet hacks to genetic phds so dont worry the genepool is fi e.

Theres tons of untainted landrace weed in the wild people just dont bother to look. Its not vanishing like everyone says it grows everywhere. The genepool is only getting more interesti g as time goes on.

Also, ill take any OG hybrid over any landrace stock period. La drace plants are neat but the weed is not mind blowing. I find ogk mind blowing so i keep letting it blow my mind in all the forms i find it in...

Anyway, relax... things are ok

 

[Guy Brush]

Variegation is not a result of improper breeding. This is not time to make assumptions first you thought its mosiac now improper breeding slow down. Variegation is like a birth mark dude its not a big deal. Sone plants it goes away with a lil calmag (og and chem) i have one right now doimg it. Im not in coco its hydro its just the 1 plant

Anyway slooooow down friend you are making very fast assumptions and thats not how things work. Verify facts not jump from 1 thing to another in a heartbeat

In the earlier days when people didn't have the knowledge and the cal mag supplements they also selected against cal mag deficiency, automatically.

 

[meizzwang]

OG Expressions: If stay too relaxed and don't jump to our feet, we'll miss our opportunities

 

[OG Expressions]

OG Expressions: If stay too relaxed and don't jump to our feet, we'll miss our opportunities

I mean relax as in slow your roll. You are posing these massive posts of irrelivancy to respond to why you figure you are right and i am wrong. Ill be honest i skim through the posts because theses not enough relevant responce to read them in their entirety.

Anyway variegation is not a big deal, calm down a tad and things will be ok. Theres nk mosaiac virus, variegation is not the end of the world...

I dont particularly enjoy these types of threads because i find my responses fall on deaf ears. You are not posting info thats totally accurate, rather than defemd it you should spemd some time readinf about mosiac and variegation

 

[Betterhaff]

The banana issue is due to the monocropping (of clones) of commercially suitable cultivars not necessarily breeding issues. In fact most (if not all commercial cultivars) are triploid, because of the quality of being seedless or having small seeds. This polyploidy makes breeding difficult because they are sterile to self breeding. Most modern breeding programs utilize breeding a triploid with a diploid and then sorting thru the offspring for something new, looking for a new cultivar that has suitable commercial qualities. Most likely these will also be triploid types as they too will be seedless (and sterile).

 

[meizzwang]

The banana issue is due to the monocropping (of clones) of commercially suitable cultivars not necessarily breeding issues. In fact most (if not all commercial cultivars) are triploid, because of the quality of being seedless or having small seeds. This polyploidy makes breeding difficult because they are sterile to self breeding. Most modern breeding programs utilize breeding a triploid with a diploid and then sorting thru the offspring for something new, looking for a new cultivar that has suitable commercial qualities. Most likely these will also be triploid types as they too will be seedless (and sterile).

Absolutely true. Bananas are in trouble because everyone is growing one single clone (Cavendish) and diseases are evolving faster than that single clone can handle. In cannabis, we have thousands of strains, but they're all very genetically similar and most share the same dutch genes, so in time, if we don't change this practice, we'll be faced with a similar challenge in the future. Do you think the weather or genetics is to blame for this grower's failure? Sorry, you'll have to copy and paste it and get rid of the spaces, the hyperlink won't work:
http www. oregonlive.com/marijuana/index.ssf/2016/11/southern_oregon_pot_growers_bu.html

 

[BombBudPuffa]

Absolutely true. Bananas are in trouble because everyone is growing one single clone (Cavendish) and diseases are evolving faster than that single clone can handle. In cannabis, we have thousands of strains, but they're all very genetically similar and most share the same dutch genes, so in time, if we don't change this practice, we'll be faced with a similar challenge in the future. Do you think the weather or genetics is to blame for this grower's failure? Sorry, you'll have to copy and paste it and get rid of the spaces, the hyperlink won't work:
http www. oregonlive.com/marijuana/index.ssf/2016/11/southern_oregon_pot_growers_bu.html

I like the middle eastern genetics myself. Been collecting landraces from that region all year. I even found some very interesting plants from Pakistan that have long sativa leaves but have the growth structure and flowering period of an indica. Anxious to get a few going.

 

[Robney]

Meizzwang: If you're so worried about genetic bottlenecking, why are you throwing out plants for showing different traits than the rest of your plants? Shouldn't you be excited to have mutants that will contribute something different to the genetic pool? Aren't you bottlenecking your own genetics?

Variegation is deemed harmless by some, but others observe it's indistinguishable from viruses, which poses a threat to cultivated Cannabis plants now and more importantly in the long term.

How do you know that variegation isn't an important survival mutation for wild cannabis? Maybe for wild cannabis variegation leads to less issues with bugs and animals (maybe the contrast confuses bugs and they go for more evenly colored leaves).

Also, you post saying that growing blueberry, NL, Guerilla Glue, and the such in cold, wet weather will give one bud rot. That is absolutely true, but how is that a sign of poor breeeding? If you take any plant or animal outside of it's ideal ecosystem, the animal or plant will fare poorly. Would you take a monkey out of Africa, put it in Antartica, watch it die from lack of food or the cold, and then say that it was a poorly bred monkey? If you have wet, cold months on end, you should ask people what they have grown outdoors in your area. You can't blame the seed when you put in in the wrong place (aka an environment that is unfavorable to its natural characteristics).

Stop hating on all the breeders just because they aren't furthering what you consider should be the goals of marijuana progeny. What strains have you created? What company do you run that provides people with quality genetics? Start your own seed collective/company if you think they aren't doing it right, but a lot of us here like the work they do and appreciate everything they have done to provide us with the genetics that create the progeny we enjoy.

Just checked your hyperlink: the grower only lost 20% of an outdoor crop and said it was similar to the way a pear orchard loses some pears when they fall to the ground. If those are normal loses to an outdoor grower, how is this indicative of an issue in the genetics? If genetics were to blame, wouldn't the grower lose far more than just 20% of the crop?

OG_Expressions: I'm at least paying attention to your responses!

 

[meizzwang]

Meizzwang: If you're so worried about genetic bottlenecking, why are you throwing out plants for showing different traits than the rest of your plants? Shouldn't you be excited to have mutants that will contribute something different to the genetic pool? Aren't you bottlenecking your own genetics?



How do you know that variegation isn't an important survival mutation for wild cannabis? Maybe for wild cannabis variegation leads to less issues with bugs and animals (maybe the contrast confuses bugs and they go for more evenly colored leaves).

Also, you post saying that growing blueberry, NL, Guerilla Glue, and the such in cold, wet weather will give one bud rot. That is absolutely true, but how is that a sign of poor breeeding? If you take any plant or animal outside of it's ideal ecosystem, the animal or plant will fare poorly. Would you take a monkey out of Africa, put it in Antartica, watch it die from lack of food or the cold, and then say that it was a poorly bred monkey? If you have wet, cold months on end, you should ask people what they have grown outdoors in your area. You can't blame the seed when you put in in the wrong place (aka an environment that is unfavorable to its natural characteristics).

Stop hating on all the breeders just because they aren't furthering what you consider should be the goals of marijuana progeny. What strains have you created? What company do you run that provides people with quality genetics? Start your own seed collective/company if you think they aren't doing it right, but a lot of us here like the work they do and appreciate everything they have done to provide us with the genetics that create the progeny we enjoy.

Just checked your hyperlink: the grower only lost 20% of an outdoor crop and said it was similar to the way a pear orchard loses some pears when they fall to the ground. If those are normal loses to an outdoor grower, how is this indicative of an issue in the genetics? If genetics were to blame, wouldn't the grower lose far more than just 20% of the crop?

OG_Expressions: I'm at least paying attention to your responses!

You can't change the world alone, you need leaders and followers to make a significant difference.

I'd be interested to know what advantages variegation in cannabis has on wild plants: it's certainly possible, but not obvious. In cultivation, the negatives outweigh the positives to variegation, so culling them helps increase the chance of survival in the long run by lowering the chance of viral infections. You're lowering the gene pool, but increasing fecundity and survival by selecting for the most adapt genotypes. Runts and weak plants usually can't compete in the wild, natural selection naturally lowers the gene pool in the wild by killing these individuals off.

Forestry managers regularly cut down diseased and weak trees in a given forest. They also lower the gene pool temporarily, but this decreases the spread of diseases and overall keeps the most fit trees healthy.

With cannabis, the main challenge is the law, not the breeders. The laws dictate the direction breeders need to take to be competitive in the market. The vast majority of seed companies today breed for plants that are selected for indoor conditions. My hope is that the breeders change their mindsets as the laws change in their favor.

Cannabis has evolved to successfully flower in the snow capped mountains of Nepal, in the deep tropics of SE Asia, and in the drought ridden deserts of the middle East/africa. From what I understand (and please share some pics with me if I'm wrong), there are no more original, unadulterated wild populations of Cannabis indica and cannabis sativa left in the world, only feral (escaped) populations and landraces that are selected, relic populations of what once existed. While there are still some great genetics out there, mainstream breeders are focused on high yields, drug content/quality, popularity of certain lines, flavor, etc. These are unmistakably important characteristics to consider. However, very few are focused on disease prevention and adaptability to various climates on a genetic level. We have the genes to adapt to a variety of climates, yet the mainstream isn't focused on that...not yet.

If you grow outdoors in Southern Oregon, choosing the right variety bred for your climate is key, but the vast majority of cannabis seed companies can't supply you with the genetics you need.


20% loss with the heavy use of pesticides and fungicides is significant: the weed is coming out tainted with chemicals, grower is polluting and in some cases irreversibly damaging the environment, and they may not even be able to sell their end product due the product testing too high for pesticides/fungicides. Breeding and selecting for disease resistant cannabis plants will lower the cost of production, increase yield/profit for the grower, and increase quality (no need to use fungicides if the plant can fight it off on its own).

The overall theme of this thread: Prevention is key to the future of Cannabis, especially with the rate global climate change is occurring. It starts with the seed and in our case, the breeders where the laws have changed and given them the freedom to improve the adaptability of domesticated cannabis.

 

[frostqueen]

I feel like the guy many centuries back who was trying to convince people the world was round, LOL

That guy centuries back had proof that the earth was round. You don't even know that you have a virus. You are just running on pure hysteria and blind speculation at this point. Assumptions are the enemy of professionals.

I don't mean to be harsh, but stop jumping to premature conclusions and then spreading them in these forums as fact. There is enough misinformation and bro-science that everyone has to sift through; we don't need more. Variegation display is a natural trait in many genotypes; stop freaking out and killing otherwise healthy plants over it, would be my advice.

As others have said, there are nutrient anomalies that sometimes result in the variegation you are showing us. I've seen this trait come and go for over 15 years now, and I've never seen a drop in quality or production from it in over 100 genotypes.

 

[meizzwang]

That guy centuries back had proof that the earth was round. You don't even know that you have a virus. You are just running on pure hysteria and blind speculation at this point. Assumptions are the enemy of professionals.

I don't mean to be harsh, but stop jumping to premature conclusions and then spreading them in these forums as fact. There is enough misinformation and bro-science that everyone has to sift through; we don't need more. Variegation display is a natural trait in many genotypes; stop freaking out and killing otherwise healthy plants over it, would be my advice.

As others have said, there are nutrient anomalies that sometimes result in the variegation you are showing us. I've seen this trait come and go for over 15 years now, and I've never seen a drop in quality or production from it in over 100 genotypes.

Just to clarify, without a lab analysis, it is unknown if the plants I showed are just variegated due to sensitivity to the soil or if they are infected with virus. Based on the feedback of this forum, it seems to be non-viral related, but that's based on assumptions. I don't think prevention is an extreme measure, but for the record, that is my opinion

 

[domacin]

.... it is very difficult to get rid of, incredibly contagious even in grow areas, all debris (even dust) needs to be taken up, 5% bleach wipe down after a 2% soap solution washes it down and dries it, pots tossed, drippers, trays etc should be tossed or very aggressively sterilized with bleach. Even if I am wrong about tmv and tomv infecting cannabis, these are not fun viruses to deal with (try dealing with 50 acres where 25 acres is infected, it is a lot of work).

actually, this is a welcome situation not many have
by
creating an environment that will "spill out" resistant plants to tmv or tomv or any other XYv in question

genes are fucked up bc ppl work sterile ... "like nature" lol ...

 

[OG Expressions]

OG_Expressions: I'm at least paying attention to your responses!

Thanks rob. I dont think the guy realizes hes just making a bunch of assumptions, not based on science but what he thinks.

Theres tons of variety in the genepool hes got to stop reading all the hype people write online. He convinced hes got a problem either a virus or something else nefarious. He should probably stick to growing cuts which have no varietion. For the rest of us who have popped 1000s of seeds the things he says are verging on laughable. If he had a bit more experience popping seeds he would know the things hes saying are not making a ton of sense

 

[OG Expressions]

Just to clarify, without a lab analysis, it is unknown if the plants I showed are just variegated due to sensitivity to the soil or if they are infected with virus. Based on the feedback of this forum, it seems to be non-viral related, but that's based on assumptions. I don't think prevention is an extreme measure, but for the record, that is my opinion

You are making assumptions about viruses and whatever. Its probably just a runt seedling and you are going on and on. Dude when you buy a pack of seeds they are genetic individuals some have mutations good or bad pop some seeds and you will see what you are seeing is not a virus or major mutation thats a issue its just a genetic individual

You should just listen to frostqueen they are 100% right and couldnt put it better. They are clearly speaking from experience not from reading the i ternet or making assumptions. The main theme of this thread is you making assuptions and pushing them as facts and rambling incoherent nonsense in reply when people try to explain things to you

 

[meizzwang]

You are making assumptions about viruses and whatever. Its probably just a runt seedling and you are going on and on. Dude when you buy a pack of seeds they are genetic individuals some have mutations good or bad pop some seeds and you will see what you are seeing is not a virus or major mutation thats a issue its just a genetic individual

You should just listen to frostqueen they are 100% right and couldnt put it better. They are clearly speaking from experience not from reading the i ternet or making assumptions. The main theme of this thread is you making assuptions and pushing them as facts and rambling incoherent nonsense in reply when people try to explain things to you

I actually don't know if it's virus or not, as stated above. All info I have stated above relates to diseases and viruses, they adhere to the topic. My apologies that it upsets some of you, that isn't the intention here. The more input we get, the better it is for everyone. Let's keep this thread focused on the topic, not on individuals.

 

[Cabinet Ninja]

Someone close the thread already. OP doesn't have the slightest idea what he is going on about.