VIRUS in Tangie seeds-beware!

[meizzwang]

EDIT: Virus not verified. In any case, variegation should be selected against in seed grown batches unless there is some known benefit.

Okay, to be 100% up front, I have no idea what type of virus this is, but I do know that the source of the virus was from a pack of tangie seeds that I paid an arm and leg for. If you've received a recent batch of Croc*ett's Tangie (purchased in 2016), you may be experiencing the same thing, so beware! While Cannabis can survive and flower with a viral infection, this isn't something you want to play with, get rid of it immediately. Yields can be lowered, growing can become more challenging, plants can be weakened, and the virus can spread like a wildfire very quickly! A virus is technically not a living organism, and there is no cure for it.


Here are the facts:
1) Virus was seed born and showed up in 2 of 3 tangie seedlings. First signs of the virus were visible 2 days after germination.
2) CC's Deadhead OG seedlings in same pot showed no symptoms of virus upon germination.
3) At first, I thought it was variegation on my tangie plants, which can sometimes look much like the symptoms of a virus. However, variegation is a harmless pigment mutation that is typically found in the L1 layer of the epidermis and it cannot be spread to other plants.
4) As an experiment, I rubbed the leaves of my infected tangie plants onto 2 of my deadhead OG plants (in hindsight, this was really stupid and I was convinced it was just variegation).
5) about 2 weeks later, the two deadhead OG plants started showing symptoms of the virus. The second I noticed this, all infected plants were destroyed. I then washed my hands with soap and water, and then washed them again with rubbing alcohol to ensure nothing was left! I also grow tomatoes and don't want this nightmare to spread.

Some viruses are weak and only show up when the plants are struggling, but whatever virus I have, it seems to shows up no matter what. This isn't something to take lightly: you can destroy an entire grow op with one infected plant! Viruses can be spread through physical contact (ie. rubbing the leaves/stems,roots, flowers,etc. from an infected plant to an uninfected plant like my dumbass did), using the same set of pruners to trim all your plants, insects, via pollination, etc.

There's only one way know to get rid of a virus: get to the apical meristem, excise it aspetically without reinfecting it with virus, clone in vitro.

Now, had these not been some of the most expensive seeds in the world, I wouldn't care, but I'm pretty pissed because I'm now missing an arm and a leg for these diseased genetics. Never again will I try to grow CROC*ETT's gear, not worth the risk. Proof is in the pudding:

Here's the tangie plants:

Closer pic of virus symptoms, tangie leaves close up:

Notice new growth shows sign of symptoms, this is from tangie:

Here's the 3 deadhead OG's, two to the right are now infected and subsequently culled:

Moral of the story: if you suspect virus on your seedlings or cuttings, isolate them from everything in a separate room and observe them. Best case scenario, it's variegation. Worse case scenario, you'll be posting pics of your infected plant here! There seems to be a lot of incorrect information online regarding viruses on cannabis, so my hope is that this will help other fellow growers who may have to deal with this issue sometime now or in the future.

 

[WelderDan]

I've got several plants going (all from seed) from several sources. A number of them show similar, if not identical symptoms. The only thing they all have in common is the medium.

I'm not going to comment one way or the other on the veracity of your claims regarding this breeder. I have no experience with his gear, and have no basis to form an opinion other than your statements.

I will be watching this thread though, because I've seen this phenomena a number of times, and I've heard a number of theories. So I'm going to observe instead of engage.

 

[Midnight Tokar]

I don't know the strain or breeder but, You are showing young seedlings with some sort of mutation. You claim they have a virus and destroyed them. You didn't say that they died, performed badly or anything adverse. I'm thinking you jumped the gun and should have grown them out to see what happens. You also didn't say how you achieved this diagnosis.......guess, scientific lab analysis, etc?
I have also had some similar mutations particularly from DJ Short and they were absolutely awesome!

 

[Cabinet Ninja]

It is not a tumor.. Er, I mean virous!

 

[Medfinder]

unique variegation I've grow citrus berry from the breeder exotic genetics and i was not impressed with the 10 pk seeds i grew out.

as far as tangie? I've got many different clones of her and NEVER have seen that variegation yet

 

[meizzwang]

I don't know the strain or breeder but, You are showing young seedlings with some sort of mutation. You claim they have a virus and destroyed them. You didn't say that they died, performed badly or anything adverse. I'm thinking you jumped the gun and should have grown them out to see what happens. You also didn't say how you achieved this diagnosis.......guess, scientific lab analysis, etc?
I have also had some similar mutations particularly from DJ Short and they were absolutely awesome!

Good question, and you're right, there's not 100% proof without lab testing to verify it's a virus. However, I did rub the leaves of the supposed infected plants (tangie seedlings) and then rubbed the leaves of plants showing no symptoms ( deadhead OG plants) and 2 weeks later the deadhead OG plants started showing symptoms (see pics above). Either it's a coincidence that deadhead OG might be showing variegation, or this is a virus. Variegation is relatively rare in cannabis, although it could be more frequent in selfings or sibling crosses, as these tend to be recessive traits. I'm not taking any chances given the results as shown and described in the pictures above, there's a higher chance that it's virus than not.

 

[meizzwang]

unique variegation I've grow citrus berry from the breeder exotic genetics and i was not impressed with the 10 pk seeds i grew out.

as far as tangie? I've got many different clones of her and NEVER have seen that variegation yet

I also grew out tangie from seeds acquired in 2015, no variegation/potential virus issues. They seemed great, that's why I went ahead and bought another pack!

 

[OregonBorn]

Looks like a mosaic virus to me. My understanding is that hemp is suitable to tomato and tobacco mosaic virus. From the looks of yours, I would say tobacco mosaic. I have seen a lot of different virus outbreaks on a lot of different types of plants. These virus are rather typical. Mutations are very atypical.

For those in doubt, I invite you to GOOGLE 'tobacco mosaic in Cannabis' and look at the plethora of similar photos of the same type of mottled light green patches. It is bloody obvious. Especially as he successfully inoculated other plants with it. As weed becomes legal and grown more in more and more states, more diseases are becoming more prevalent. Specifically hemp mites, broad mites, whitefly, thrips, Botrytis, powdery mildew, fungus gnats, spider mites, rust and mosaic virus.

A+ goes to the OP of this thread.

 

[meizzwang]

A lot of cultivars of tobacco grown for cigarette production are loaded with TMV, but the seeds are selected to be tolerant of the virus and farmers grow and process infected plants anyways. Hypothetically, a cigarette smoker handling cannabis seeds can unknowingly infect the seeds if they didn't properly wash their hands or wear sterile gloves. No cigarette laden hands touched these seeds when in my possession

 

[OregonBorn]

A lot of cultivars of tobacco grown for cigarette production are loaded with TMV, but the seeds are selected to be tolerant of the virus and farmers grow and process infected plants anyways. Hypothetically, a cigarette smoker handling cannabis seeds can unknowingly infect the seeds if they didn't properly wash their hands or wear sterile gloves. No cigarette laden hands touched these seeds when in my possession

Tobacco mosaic infects a lot of plants other than tobacco. It is common on flowering nicotine, petunia, bacopa, verbena, scaevola, diascia, calibrachoa and lobelia, and about 350 other plant species. It is HIGHLY contagious in hemp and marijuana (Cannabis). There are also many similar viruses to tobacco mosaic, including

• beet mosaic
• plum pox
• cassava mosaic
• Cowpea mosaic
• Cucumber mosaic
• Alfalfa mosaic
• Panicum mosaic satellite
• zucchini moasic
• tomato mosaic
• cymbidium mosaic

 

[CannaZen]

I don't know, i believe results of monoculture and these are not inherently genetic to all offspring by seed. You really wouldn't see all genotype but an 'ibl' such that may not be all that diverse, I can see the sugar leaves, normally you would spray a tea for mycorrhizae. Definitely not something your smoking with the combustion but when leaves produce terpenoids and defence compounds like antioxidants and such, even vapor.

 

[subrob]

I'm sure if you look hard you can find threads dedicated to the same thing. Same thing has happened to many people. I've popped seeds that ended up looking just like that then grew out of it. Never know
The TMV thing has been argued about many times here.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I don't know the strain or breeder but, You are showing young seedlings with some sort of mutation. You claim they have a virus and destroyed them. You didn't say that they died, performed badly or anything adverse. I'm thinking you jumped the gun and should have grown them out to see what happens. You also didn't say how you achieved this diagnosis.......guess, scientific lab analysis, etc?
I have also had some similar mutations particularly from DJ Short and they were absolutely awesome!

Yes! Best F13 I grew, had mutations, wish I had took a clone & hit a male F13! just to see what I got. ~~TrickyRicky

 

[meizzwang]

I'm sure if you look hard you can find threads dedicated to the same thing. Same thing has happened to many people. I've popped seeds that ended up looking just like that then grew out of it. Never know
The TMV thing has been argued about many times here.

Indeed, I looked many up and found very conflicting information. Fact remains, if variegation can be spread from one plant to another plant that showed no previous symptoms, there's a very low chance it's a mutation and not a virus.

I also have some manipuri landrace seedlings that are showing signs of variegation on the first set of juvenile leaves, yet all subsequent leaves have shown no signs of variegation...so far! I suspect it's either a mutation, a weaker strain of some virus, or the same virus but the strain is more resistant. When you see every leaf from the growth point emerging with symptoms, this is more concerning compared to a plant that only shows signs here and there.

Some cannabis strains may have stronger resistance to viral infections. I wouldn't be surprised, should manipuri have the same virus, that it's more resistant than many modern hybrids.

 

[MJPassion]

meizzwang,

It was already mentioned & apparently it's been ignored.

The ONLY common item between all your plants is your grow medium. (Please correct if wrong)

I believe it was Chem 91 (maybe Chem D) that was also believed to have something similar to TMV.
That particular cut requires tons of Ca & the symptoms go away.

Without a lab analysis, even your best guess is a stab in the dark as to what these symptoms are trying to tell you.

When was your last soil test done?

 

[EastCoast710]

Okay, to be 100% up front, I have no idea what type of virus this is, but I do know that the source of the virus was from a pack of tangie seeds that I paid an arm and leg for. If you've received a recent batch of Croc*ett's Tangie (purchased in 2016), you may be experiencing the same thing, so beware! While Cannabis can survive and flower with a viral infection, this isn't something you want to play with, get rid of it immediately. Yields can be lowered, growing can become more challenging, plants can be weakened, and the virus can spread like a wildfire very quickly! A virus is technically not a living organism, and there is no cure for it.


Here are the facts:
1) Virus was seed born and showed up in 2 of 3 tangie seedlings. First signs of the virus were visible 2 days after germination.
2) CC's Deadhead OG seedlings in same pot showed no symptoms of virus upon germination.
3) At first, I thought it was variegation on my tangie plants, which can sometimes look much like the symptoms of a virus. However, variegation is a harmless pigment mutation that is typically found in the L1 layer of the epidermis and it cannot be spread to other plants.
4) As an experiment, I rubbed the leaves of my infected tangie plants onto 2 of my deadhead OG plants (in hindsight, this was really stupid and I was convinced it was just variegation).
5) about 2 weeks later, the two deadhead OG plants started showing symptoms of the virus. The second I noticed this, all infected plants were destroyed. I then washed my hands with soap and water, and then washed them again with rubbing alcohol to ensure nothing was left! I also grow tomatoes and don't want this nightmare to spread.

Some viruses are weak and only show up when the plants are struggling, but whatever virus I have, it seems to shows up no matter what. This isn't something to take lightly: you can destroy an entire grow op with one infected plant! Viruses can be spread through physical contact (ie. rubbing the leaves/stems,roots, flowers,etc. from an infected plant to an uninfected plant like my dumbass did), using the same set of pruners to trim all your plants, insects, via pollination, etc.

There's only one way know to get rid of a virus: get to the apical meristem, excise it aspetically without reinfecting it with virus, clone in vitro.

Now, had these not been some of the most expensive seeds in the world, I wouldn't care, but I'm pretty pissed because I'm now missing an arm and a leg for these diseased genetics. Never again will I try to grow CROC*ETT's gear, not worth the risk. Proof is in the pudding:

Here's the tangie plants:
View Image

Closer pic of virus symptoms, tangie leaves close up:
View Image


Notice new growth shows sign of symptoms, this is from tangie:
View Image


Here's the 3 deadhead OG's, two to the right are now infected and subsequently culled:
View Image

Moral of the story: if you suspect virus on your seedlings or cuttings, isolate them from everything in a separate room and observe them. Best case scenario, it's variegation. Worse case scenario, you'll be posting pics of your infected plant here! There seems to be a lot of incorrect information online regarding viruses on cannabis, so my hope is that this will help other fellow growers who may have to deal with this issue sometime now or in the future.

I don't think so.. honestly.. I don't believe that's a virus.. I believe what your seeing is a finicky nute plant... throw some calmag in the watering schedule and watch that disappear

 

[I wood]

I have grown several varieties that look similar.
Prayer tower sativa from Bodhi was the weirdest. It had about 5-10% affected leaves normally. If I gave it a big dose of kelp all new growth would be affected for several weeks.
Still produced normally either way.

 

[meizzwang]

meizzwang,

It was already mentioned & apparently it's been ignored.

The ONLY common item between all your plants is your grow medium. (Please correct if wrong)

I believe it was Chem 91 (maybe Chem D) that was also believed to have something similar to TMV.
That particular cut requires tons of Ca & the symptoms go away.

Without a lab analysis, even your best guess is a stab in the dark as to what these symptoms are trying to tell you.

When was your last soil test done?

There are 2 seedlings (one tangie and one deadhead OG) in the same exact pot/same soil that never showed symptoms and are completely healthy (still no signs of virus as of today), so that rules out soil or macronutrient deficiency as being an issue. Will snap a photo for you guys to see as soon as I have a chance.

You can live with AIDS, but I prefer to never get it in the first place, it's a hassle and you have to work your life around it. Sure, you can take meds and the symptoms may go away (much like dialing in the environment to lower symptoms of virus in cannabis), but the virus is still present. Keep viruses out of you and your plants and it'll never become an issue.


Prevention is the only way to keep viruses out of your crops, and like the billboards in the Bahamas once said, "PROTECT YA TINGS, MON!" LOL

 

[therevverend]

Doesn't necessarily rule out nutrients if other plans in the same soil aren't getting it. I've seen plants show deficiencies in dirt that other plants thrive in. Even seedlings of the same strain. Very hard to rule anything out in certain situations like this one.
The one case I've seen that most likely involves a virus occurs when outdoor plants come in contact with blackberries in my area. The blackberries are wild, not watered, so they are full of disease.
As soon as the come in contact with cultivated ganja they spread several problems. Thrips, mites, and a yellow leaf mottling pattern.
The mottling only spreads through direct leaf contact over a few days. After a few days the thrips and mite infestation goes away. I assume there's environmental factors outdoors that control them. The mottling spreads and stays for life. Once a plant has it there's irregular growth, mottling, and a slowing of growth.
So far this virus at least does not spread through seed. Glad I haven't come across that yet.

 

[meizzwang]

Doesn't necessarily rule out nutrients if other plans in the same soil aren't getting it. I've seen plants show deficiencies in dirt that other plants thrive in. Even seedlings of the same strain. Very hard to rule anything out in certain situations like this one.
The one case I've seen that most likely involves a virus occurs when outdoor plants come in contact with blackberries in my area. The blackberries are wild, not watered, so they are full of disease.
As soon as the come in contact with cultivated ganja they spread several problems. Thrips, mites, and a yellow leaf mottling pattern.
The mottling only spreads through direct leaf contact over a few days. After a few days the thrips and mite infestation goes away. I assume there's environmental factors outdoors that control them. The mottling spreads and stays for life. Once a plant has it there's irregular growth, mottling, and a slowing of growth.
So far this virus at least does not spread through seed. Glad I haven't come across that yet.

In retrospect, you're correct, there's no 100% certainty without testing for virus and seeing the results. The potting soil could lack uniformity and have nutrient deficient pockets. Alternately, the seedlings are all genetically different, so some may be more sensitive to the soil than another. The best I have to go by is probability, which shows that these environmental circumstances leading to variegation, while still very possible, are less likely given the data. I am also aware that my data is from such a small sample size and that alone can be skewing the interpretation of the results.

What I'm also curious to know is if virus can be soil born, does anyone know?

At this point, everything is conjecture, and the variegation could be due to the genetics of the plant, the environment, or a virus, it's definitely one of those three. In any case, I'm playing it very safe while handing plants showing symptoms and will continue to report whatever I see.