Vertical Vs Horizontal lighting

[DrFever]

not sure if this is the right area but figured lets get in depth on lighting
and some real truth behind all of this i am seeing lots of growers trying out vertical lighting for there complete grow
my views on this is vertical lighting should be and can be used for supplemental lighting what were trying to achieve here is getting the most you can get out of your light to the plant and vertical lighting just doesn't do it
Keep in mind people you can't bend lighting in a grow room
so everyone join in and lets get to the bottom of this )

Also note that those rays after the focal point in the convex part of the image are VERY VERY weak, the image may misrepresent them as the primary light rays hitting the plants since the word PLANTS is right below them, but they are not.

The picture on the left (concave) is what all grow light reflectors do, they take the rays of light being reflected off them, and scatter them in all directions downwards.

 

[FlowerFarmer]

Its all about square footage..and filling that space with bud sites.

For me - I added an extra 1/2 Lb per 1000w light simply by switching to bare bulbs dropped down into my canopy vs. a horizontal lamp above it. I cannot speak on your picture.. but my experience has been better yields when running my lamps vertical.

 

[Cannabinoholic]

Yeah, I would say I added about another 30% or so in dry product with a 600w by doing the same thing, FF.

 

[5th]

....you know we hang the bulbs vertically right? Not just take the reflectors off.

 

[hotboxes]

I have tried both methods and IMO it would have to depend on light strength and how deep the light can penetrate into the canopy. In my box I chose to go vertical to flower simply because I can grow single cola plants and my 400 watt light can penetrate into the side of the plant further than if it was above the plant. Thus creating bigger buds,but that is just my opinion.........

 

[SEAttown206]

Link to Vertical-Thread

Link to Vertical-Thread

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=232632

Here is a link to a recently-started thread in the Vertical/Colosseum Forum that explains the advantages, & some of the pitfalls as well......

 

[thesloppy]

dropped down into my canopy vs. a horizontal lamp above it

This is the concept that I think confuses a lot of neophytes....and I'm speaking from purely personal experience, before the idea finally 'clicked'. I think folks just default to think of hanging the bulb vertically in the same place where it's hanging horizontally, above the canopy (and thinking "what's the big deal?"), just because that's where the light's supposed to go, in our minds, and putting the light below the tops of your plants isn't even conceivable. When I first heard/considered vert lighting I was like "Uhhh, OK? Why would I do that?" then once the concept clicked, I was like "Why was I ever NOT doing this?" The pic you linked does a great job of showing the coverage difference.

 

[rives]

Strictly from an overall lighting perspective, not specifically applied to growing, vertically orienting the lamp relative to the reflector allows the designer much better control over the light dispersal and provides more uniform lighting. Virtually every industrial luminaire is designed this way, with the exception of specialized applications such as wall mounting or roadway illumination. Flashlights, automotive headlights, etc ,etc are all designed this way.

A vertically oriented bare bulb works well for growing because it can be placed at canopy level and provide the most intense light possible. It also creates harsh shadows on the "dark side of the moon", and wastes any upward light. Consider a bare lamp hanging at 7' in a room vs the same lamp mounted in a simple parabolic reflector. The overall illumination levels are going to be much greater with the reflector since the light above the bottom plane of the reflector will be directed to where it can be effectively used.

The new Luxor from Sun Systems and the All-Bright from Cycloptics take advantage of this. In the case of the All-Bright, only about 15% direct light from the lamp is utilized, while the remainder is controlled by the reflector. This, combined with highly reflective walls, provides high levels of very uniform lighting and should result in far better results in the plants overall production if they cannot be rotated on a regular basis. It is the same concept as using side lighting, but with all overhead-mounted fixtures.

 

[Ichabod Crane]

Strictly from an overall lighting perspective, not specifically applied to growing, vertically orienting the lamp relative to the reflector allows the designer much better control over the light dispersal and provides more uniform lighting. Virtually every industrial luminaire is designed this way, with the exception of specialized applications such as wall mounting or roadway illumination. Flashlights, automotive headlights, etc ,etc are all designed this way.

A vertically oriented bare bulb works well for growing because it can be placed at canopy level and provide the most intense light possible. It also creates harsh shadows on the "dark side of the moon", and wastes any upward light. Consider a bare lamp hanging at 7' in a room vs the same lamp mounted in a simple parabolic reflector. The overall illumination levels are going to be much greater with the reflector since the light above the bottom plane of the reflector will be directed to where it can be effectively used.

The new Luxor from Sun Systems and the All-Bright from Cycloptics take advantage of this. In the case of the All-Bright, only about 15% direct light from the lamp is utilized, while the remainder is controlled by the reflector. This, combined with highly reflective walls, provides high levels of very uniform lighting and should result in far better results in the plants overall production if they cannot be rotated on a regular basis. It is the same concept as using side lighting, but with all overhead-mounted fixtures.

I let my plants grow over the top of the lamp to prevent this loss of light. Plus above that I have a reflective surface. In addition my lights are not a great distance from the ceiling. This decreases the distance to the reflective surface. I also use a reflective surface on the back side of my plants 3 inches away from the plant.

The shadows you talk of matter little as this happens with a hood or bare bulb. In my vertical grow my canopy is not more than 8 inches deep, and generally 2-3 inches. So shadows don't really factor here for vertical growing.

I think the big issue is maximizing your light usage no matter what style you grow with, be it vertical or horizontal. I grow vertical because it is easier for me to keep my canopy at a fixed distance from my light. Because I can keep my plants at a fixed distance from the light they maximize the sweet spot. I also don't have to lollipop and have a tall plant with a lot of useless stems. I can also grow in a smaller area and maximize my square footage.

 

[rives]

Have you ever tried a Vscrog? It seems like they would be ideal for a bare bulb application.

 

[supermanlives]

loving vert

 

[St3ve]

To the op: your examples are trying to use science. There are many people that have real world experience to contradict you.. Unless you have a side by side of an actual grow that is testing what you're charts are trying to explain then you probably won't get very far.

and unfortunately, the real world is where we smoke.

 

[supermanlives]

basic common or uncommon sence. tells ya verticle rules and circular vertical is the best LOL even me a newbie in vert knows that

 

[magiccannabus]

I did a complete T-8 tube grow without any overhead light whatsoever. Here's a picture of it:



That worked really well, and I was very happy with the idea(but not the space I had available). My next project was a whole new flowering chamber. I decided that instead of trying to decide which grow style is best(vertical or horizontal), I would just combine the too. Sadly, hot weather, and neighbor drama ended up stopping this grow prematurely.



Note: the HPS shown in that picture is a 250W cheap Philips bulb, but that just was not anywhere near good enough for the space.

Now I'm starting up again. I am vegging under a home-made CFL fixture(about 200w mixed spectrums). I am also now going to flower off a Ceramic Metal Halide bulb, with 256W of T-8 shop lights(32W per tube, 2 tubes per fixture, and four fixtures. That will put one in each corner. I also have a couple of 2 foot shop lights too that I might find a way to put to use.

Here is the start of my new setup(minus the shop lights standing vertically in each corner)

 

[VerdantGreen]

i think that if you are really good at canopy management then horizontal or dished/v is the way to go.

that diagram about vert having 135% more growing space doesnt mention that the surface area of the canopy will diminish as the plant grows towards the light whearas a horizontal your canopy size stays the same.

also diffuse light from a reflector is better used and better penetrates the canopy because it doesnt come from a point source.

most vert growers would struggle to beat the gpw yields i achieve in horizontal scrog.

but at the end if the day what matters is that you find the method that works best for you and try to make the most of it in your situation.

VG

 

[thesloppy]

that diagram about vert having 135% more growing space doesnt mention that the surface area of the canopy will diminish as the plant grows towards the light whearas a horizontal your canopy size stays the same.

Yeah, I grow vert, and have experienced increased yields, but I would agree that picture's a little disingenuous, in that it's also accounting for a solid 8 feet of growing plant matter literally from the base of the floor to the absolute top of the ceiling, which is pretty much a fantasy for lots of folks/rooms/tents, whereas lighting and filling the space of a simple planar horizontal canopy, is pretty easy for anybody to do.

That said, lemme give an additional (hopefully) more concrete example of how vert clearly gives my plants more light, at least in my particular situation, using some similarly wonky math, but also addressing a less obvious benefit: the plants/buds in the BACK row, rather than all the pretty girls up front. I've got a cabinet that's 24"x15"x60", and I grow a SoG in which the plants probably average about 30" tall. Firstly, with a reflector, and mounted horizontally, the plants had to be at least 6-8 inches away from my 250 HPS, due to heat retained by the reflector, with a bare vertical bulb, my plants can be 3-4 inches from the bulb. As such, using the measurements above, when mounted horizontally the tops of my plants are all at least 6" from the bulb, while the bottoms of all of my plants are all at least 36" from the bulb. With the bulb mounted vertically, placed in the middle of my cabinet, and in the middle of the same plants, NO PART of ANY of my plants is more than 19.2 inches from the bulb (via ye olde pythagorean theorem, using half the cab's width and half the plants height). Most folks growing bigger plants than me (AKA everybody) are going to likely have even more drastic results (unless you've got plants/dimensions that are squat and fat).

Again, for clarity's sake: in vert none of my plant matter is more than 19 inches away from my bulb, whereas nearly half of the matter of every plant in my horizontal set-up is at least 19-36" inches away from the bulb.

...now granted, that is all specific to my set-up, and I simplified the math a bit, but so long as you've got weed taller than it is wide, the general theory will likely apply, and as much as that picture may not be 100% entirely accurate about how much more light coverage a vertical setup provides vs. a horizontal setup, and you're right to point out that a vert 'canopy' will shrink as the plants grows towards the light, it's still an obvious mathematical truth that a bare, vertically oriented bulb does cover a significantly larger area, within similar dimensions, just maybe not to that exact degree (at least not without lots of effort and experience). So, if we're willing to concede that it allows for putting significantly more buds directly in front of the light, AND puts every single bud in back significantly closer to the light, do we even need to bother considering the overly-complicated question of what the reflector brings to the party? Certainly no reflector is going to effectively double the penetration of my 250W HPS, as I would need to get to the extra foot and a half in distance I put between the bulb and the bottom of my plants by orienting my bulb horizontally, and placing it up above the canopy.

 

[VerdantGreen]

good post, im using LED atm but have used 250 extensively - but with scrog so all my buds are in the 'sweet spot' that is between say 6 and 12" from the bulb/reflector.

i can see your point about a sog.

another thing that is seldom mentioned about vert vs horizontal is that you get more buds in a given area in horizontal because they are 'packed' more efficiently -
like this
::::::
::::::

rather than vert which is more like this
llllll
llllll

again, im not saying that vert is rubbish - just that i think some of the vert guys talk about high yields much more than actually achieve them.

i pretty much always get 1gpw and have had upwards of 1.5 gpw in my horizontal scrogs, even heath said that he couldnt get yields like that in organic soil.

VG

 

[thesloppy]

another thing that is seldom mentioned about vert vs horizontal is that you get more buds in a given area in horizontal because they are 'packed' more efficiently -
like this
::::::
::::::

rather than vert which is more like this
llllll
llllll

That's another good point. I've got a handful of pretty stretchy varietals, and they definitely have prospered from my switch, but they're also never going to look like a tightly packed scrog, from top to bottom as far as the bud density is concerned. Though plants do take on some scrog qualities, as vert seems to make for more, uniformly larger buds all over, but smaller colas, since that's not where all the light is focused anymore.

i pretty much always get 1gpw and have had upwards of 1.5 gpw in my horizontal scrogs, even heath said that he couldnt get yields like that in organic soil.

VG

I certainly don't think anybody's gonna argue that math! That's a case of if it's nowhere near broke, dear god don't try and fix it. Like you say, I don't think vert is a one-size-fits-all, cure for everything that ails you....a lot of us have our size/space/setup at least partially dictated by the space/room/tent before we even consider lighting, and whatever works for each individual is what works best. Anybody who is confident/comfortable enough with their setup to think that vert wouldn't do much good is probably right, just because it does represent a drastic change, and will likely take you out of your comfort zone, for at least a short while, but it's also been a very effective solution for those of us who like to experiment, are building anew, or are looking for something to kick a tired garden around a bit.

 

[zor]

in theory, the vertical setup has more potential to yield more because of the increased canopy space. however, from what ive seen, growers tryin to achieve this maximization of canopy space need more elaborate setups, and even then, yields seem comparable to regular horizontal grows.

 

[magiccannabus]

Yeah, I grow vert, and have experienced increased yields, but I would agree that picture's a little disingenuous, in that it's also accounting for a solid 8 feet of growing plant matter literally from the base of the floor to the absolute top of the ceiling, which is pretty much a fantasy for lots of folks/rooms/tents, whereas lighting and filling the space of a simple planar horizontal canopy, is pretty easy for anybody to do.

Exactly! My first picture on the last page shows just the top of my plant. To get it to fill a 4 foot chamber, I had to veg for something like 3 months. I had to train the side branches constantly, spiraling them around with LST, and topping the ends with FIM. I did not grow for commercial reasons, so we never weighed it. Off four plants in that 512W we smoked almost non-stop blunts for three and a half months. I am certain the yield was good, but I had other problems not related to the lighting or grow style(mainly heat and light leaks). With so much veg time though, I could have grown almost two grows to the one I did. Not really ideal at all. There is a sweet spot, especially when you don't want to or cannot do a huge number of plants in a SOG. The smart vertical grows have vertical rows in my opinion...