Using PH down consistently

[Weezard]

How bad is chloramine for my plants? If I am not growing organic and dont have to worry about killing anything in the soil, will chloramine kill my plants?

Nope.
Actually It's helpful, for plants grown in hydro, or coco, (solid state, hydro, bro'), .
(It can kill tropical fish though.)

Letting the water stand is worse than a waste of time unless it is treated with Chlorine gas.
Chlorine will "outgas", Chloramine will not.
Nowadays though, gaseous disinfection is very rare.
They switched to Chloramine for several reasons.

So. letting water sit for ? hours is counterproductive.
The Chloramine stays, the air leaves!
Flat, stagnant, water is not good for flora or fauna!

I recently did a side by side test.
Tried to get cuttings to root in rainwater vs. tap water.
The tap water, w/Chloramine was the clear winner.
It protected the cuttings from several fungal pathogens.
Just like it protects us from bacterial pathogens.

And there's nothing wrong with H2SO4 to lower PH.
Sulphur is a useful trace element.

I have used lemon juice, Phosphoric acid, and vinegar at various times.
If worried about skewing your nute mix, I'd advise Nitric acid only for vegging, and Phosphoric acid for flowering.
Sulphuric and Acetic acid, (vinegar), are suitable for both.

And taste, is subjective.
I have had superior scent, and taste from pure hydro. I have also tasted nasty crap that was organically grown.
Taste is affected by strain, harvest time, and growing
skills.

Unless it is totally hosed, the nutrient type, and the PH agent used are undetectable in the end product.

(Not talkin' foilar feed, or Neem, or Suphur burn, or Serenade, or anything that gets spritzed on the surface of the plant.
Just talkin' 'bout what enters the roots.

Ya'll can jump on me for that statement if ya wish.
But bring some kind of proof if ya don't want to get dismissed.

The "purists" that I have given unmarked samples of both kinds,
(pure hydro, and fanatically, organically, grown buds), were unable to tell them apart.
They did no better than a random guess, when pressed to test.

So, let the flaming begin.

Aloha,

Weezard

 

[St3ve]

no, the levels that are in any tap water are not high enough to kill your plants.. don't worry about it.

Plenty of ppl use tap, including myself, and I have magnificent crops.

 

[MrSterling]

Take a look at the organic soil forum.

If you mix up a proper organic soil mix you can throw away that pH meter.

This man speaks truth. We don't really give a fuck about pH in organics. If your soil is healthy and alive as it should be you won't have the pH or lockout issues which seem to plague chem users. On top of that there's no need to flush.

 

[VerdantGreen]

This man speaks truth. We don't really give a fuck about pH in organics. If your soil is healthy and alive as it should be you won't have the pH or lockout issues which seem to plague chem users. On top of that there's no need to flush.

this isnt true for people who have to use high alkalinity tapwater. i have done some great organic grows and i use a pH pen to amend the pH of my high alkalinity pH 9 tapwater with citric acid. if i didnt my plants would have problems within a couple of weeks.

yes good organic soil will help with pH, but it can only go so far.

dont presume that, just because something works for you, that it will work for everyone else in the world. everyone's inputs are different. read the paper i posted the link to above

VG

 

[dpfour20]

so my tap is approx 80 ppm straight outta the faucet, with a pH of approx 8.5. Using my tds meter, i also found i was drastically UNDERfeeding. So with all this figured out hopefully my problems are all sorted out.

 

[Neo 420]

this isnt true for people who have to use high alkalinity tapwater. i have done some great organic grows and i use a pH pen to amend the pH of my high alkalinity pH 9 tapwater with citric acid. if i didnt my plants would have problems within a couple of weeks.

yes good organic soil will help with pH, but it can only go so far.

dont presume that, just because something works for you, that it will work for everyone else in the world. everyone's inputs are different. read the paper i posted the link to above

VG

Hey VD
I agree with most of your posts (U da man!!) but I think your issue with PH and maintenance is the exception and a low percentage exception at that. I can use water over 8.0 with no issue. If the alk is higher than that coming out of your pipes, your pipes would wittle away.

I must say.. It is quite refreshing not using PPM or PH sticks anymore..
If you don’t grow acid-loving plants and your garden soils are humus-rich, then you may not need to consider water acidification if the only problem with your water is a high pH.

http://www.rcgardens.ca/factsheets/factsheets/tapwaterinfo.html

 

[VerdantGreen]

Hey VD
I agree with most of your posts (U da man!!) but I think your issue with PH and maintenance is the exception and a low percentage exception at that. I can use water over 8.0 with no issue. If the alk is higher than that coming out of your pipes, your pipes would wittle away.

I must say.. It is quite refreshing not using PPM or PH sticks anymore..
If you don’t grow acid-loving plants and your garden soils are humus-rich, then you may not need to consider water acidification if the only problem with your water is a high pH.

http://www.rcgardens.ca/factsheets/factsheets/tapwaterinfo.html

hi neo, i agree that water supply isnt a problem with organic soil except in extreme cases.
first off you need to know the difference between pH and alkalinity. high pH isnt so much of a problem, but high alkalinity can be.
ive always faught against the mantra that you dont need to worry about pH in organics, because sometimes you do, and i'll always pick people up who say 'i dont worry about pH so nobody else should'
if anything, cannabis is an acid loving plant.
http://www.gpnmag.com/managing-highly-alkaline-irrigation-water
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-558.html
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/art...lant-nutrition-irrigation-water-alkalinity-ph

For example, a limestone incorporation rate of 5 pounds per cubic yard will supply approximately 100 mEq of limestone per 6-inch (15-cm) pot. Applying 16 fluid ounces (0.5 liters) of water containing 250 ppm alkalinity to that 6-inch pot will supply about 2.5 mEq of lime. That does not sound like much until you consider that after 10 irrigations, you have effectively increased the limestone incorporation rate by 25 percent.

VG

 

[Neo 420]

hi neo, i agree that water supply isnt a problem with organic soil except in extreme cases.
first off you need to know the difference between pH and alkalinity. high pH isnt so much of a problem, but high alkalinity can be.
ive always faught against the mantra that you dont need to worry about pH in organics, because sometimes you do, and i'll always pick people up who say 'i dont worry about pH so nobody else should'
if anything, cannabis is an acid loving plant.
http://www.gpnmag.com/managing-highly-alkaline-irrigation-water
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-558.html
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/art...lant-nutrition-irrigation-water-alkalinity-ph


VG

I would say acid loving with limitations (7.0 works well for some) but we are in agreement.

 

[John.Hammond]

I use PH down by GH literally every watering to get down to 5.8-6 and have never had any problems. I love that shit for the price. If ur rich n lazy try perfect PH by AN....the name says it all!

 

[John.Hammond]

PS I grow hydro and want nothing to do with the organic ph debate... its never ending, since for every grower there seems to be a different oppinion.

 

[RanchoDeluxe]

hi neo, i agree that water supply isnt a problem with organic soil except in extreme cases.
first off you need to know the difference between pH and alkalinity. high pH isnt so much of a problem, but high alkalinity can be.
ive always faught against the mantra that you dont need to worry about pH in organics, because sometimes you do, and i'll always pick people up who say 'i dont worry about pH so nobody else should'
if anything, cannabis is an acid loving plant.
http://www.gpnmag.com/managing-highly-alkaline-irrigation-water
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/hil/hil-558.html
http://www.greenhousegrower.com/art...lant-nutrition-irrigation-water-alkalinity-ph


VG

I believe this same line of thought can be applied to hydro. In either hydro or organics a pH of 8 may not be a problem. The problem arises when the ppm gets pretty high like 500ppm or so. Usually a good chunk of this is Ca and Mg.
Yosemite can explain how phosphoric acid can cause lockouts by binding up Ca??

My pH is 7.8 - 8.3 262ppm with about 60ppm of Ca. I have used teas that were over 9 consistently.

In the future, I will promote throwing away the pH meter and organics with the stipulation that one must use a quality water source.

Peace

Edit: Meant to say that if your initial water source is 8pH that in and of itself may not be the problem. The problem is with high ppm's, dropping the pH with phosphoric acid may cause lockouts.

 

[dpfour20]

so i am not sure why i thought my water was treated with chloramine, but it is actually treated with sodium hypochloride. So I am pretty sure that this stuff does evaporate.

 

[dpfour20]

Meant to say that if your initial water source is 8pH that in and of itself may not be the problem. The problem is with high ppm's, dropping the pH with phosphoric acid may cause lockouts.

that was basically my initial question anyway. will using pH down cause any kind of lockouts. I am going to switch to using citric acid regardless I think, and see how that goes.

 

[RanchoDeluxe]

Wish I could explain it better man...haven't grown hydro in about 10 years. If I were you I would really check into that sodium hypochloride. It just sounds gnarly. Salt in our water is not a good thing. Got me curious now...think I'll ask the boys over on the organic soil forum. If ya just have a couple plants it might be a good idea to just buy R/O water from the store and try it on one of your plants and give the other your tap water. If the R/O plant does better its worth 50 cents a gal or you should get your own R/O filter.

 

[Weezard]

Sort of-

Sort of-

so i am not sure why i thought my water was treated with chloramine, but it is actually treated with sodium hypochloride. So I am pretty sure that this stuff does evaporate.

Kind of.
Sodium Hypochloride is a typo.

I'm sure you meant Hypochlorite, NaCLO, which is common household bleach.
We use it in rain catchment tank on the island.

It is a compound that, when dissolved in a solution of water, will slowly decompose, releasing chlorine, oxygen, and sodium and hydroxide ions.
4 NaClO + 2 H2O → 4 Na+ + OH- + 2 Cl2 + O2
Both the Chlorine, and the Oxygen released are disinfectants.

However, the Chlorine reacts with organic matter to form halomethanes.
The Na and OH ions will accumulate and raise the PH over time.
Needing more PH down.
Vicious circle.
Fortunately, it's used in small amounts.


Aloha,
Weezard

 

[dpfour20]

I also assume that it is sodium hypochlorite, but it said sodium hypochloride on my water sources website, so I can only assume that is a type as well.

Weezard, I didnt take any chemistry in highschool at all, can you explain that in laymens terms? I think i am understanding that some of it evaporates, but it leaves halomethanes behind?

Thanks!

 

[dpfour20]

I meant I can only assume that sodium hypochloride is a typo as well****

 

[DaveBC]

What's wrong with using the pool chems I already have for lowering ph for watering outside in ground plants?

 

[Weezard]

What's wrong with using the pool chems I already have for lowering ph for watering outside in ground plants?

One.
It should not be necessary to amend your water for outdoor plants.
Soil has a buffering effect.
And B.
Pool chems, like bleach, (sodium Hypochlorite), are sodium based.
Sodium, as I understand it, negatively affects the osmotic pressure at the cell walls.
With plants, it's better to use Potassium, or Calcium Hypochlorite.
Plants make better use of the breakdown products.

I just sayin', If you must amend, use something useful, yah?

Aloha,
Weeze

 

[Weezard]

I also assume that it is sodium hypochlorite, but it said sodium hypochloride on my water sources website, so I can only assume that is a type as well.

Weezard, I didnt take any chemistry in highschool at all, can you explain that in laymens terms? I think i am understanding that some of it evaporates, but it leaves halomethanes behind?

Thanks!

Yes, in trace amounts.
They are produced when the Chlorine liberated contacts organic matter.
That's how it kills da bad bugs.
It's a required listing on your annual water quality report.

Sounds like you have a handle on it.

Aloha,
Weeze