Unofficial Coco Coir Growers Thread

[gaiusmarius]

how great to see this thread taking off. coco really is a superb medium and once you get the hang of it there is no changing back, lol.

i would say though that coco is not really ideal for poping seeds. i tend to use an rw cube to start seeds. rooted clones is another matter they take well fast in the coco. but seedlings need very careful treatment in the coco coir, else they get stem rot. i also don't really know why.

but once they are beyond a certain point they seem to take off. just getting them to that point can be difficult.

great work everyone.

 

[cough_cough_eer]

but once they are beyond a certain point they seem to take off. just getting them to that point can be difficult.

so far I find this to be extreamly accurate, this is my first run in coco and still dialing it in, but my small plants seeem to struggle then when they get to a certain point......they really take offf.




What am I to do with all this soil I have here. uummmm

 

[Guest]

Well, I was planning on puttin up the coco clone pics next to the soil clone pics but they are lookin very similar now They are at 10 days of veg and lookin perfect. The lil adjusting period is over now :smile:

 

[h g]

Hey hg

Any reason you are using only half the recommended Canna suggested minimum?

Hi Bongoman

this grow guide was posted in this thread earlier on and its well worth reading. HERE

 

[bongoman]

Thanks hg

Was just out watering the babies then. I look forward to reading that article as I am feeling a little at sea. I missed the shop today - they closed early so I still don't have any Rhizo or Cannazyme.

My res is currently mixed with about 1.8 ml/litre of Canna A+B. and I'm watering daily with run-off. Still dialing in how much to feed to get the amount of run-off I need. Seems about 500ml is giving me good run-off in a 1 gal pot.

And I'm flowering - three males and three females. These auto-flowerers are quick! No idea if I should be feeding heavier than that.

 

[Guest]

This is a great thread. I can't believe I just found it. I'm looking to switch from soil (FFOF) to a coco perlite mix. If I go 50/50 should I expect to water more often than the 2- 4 days I'm watering w/ soil? Also if I add less perlite will I not have to water as often?

 

[-VT-]

All the watering tips you need....

All the watering tips you need....

....are on pages 11 thru 14

peace



​

 

[Crazy Leaf]

what should the pH of the soil & water be for coco?

 

[Guest]

If I go 50/50 should I expect to water more often than the 2- 4 days I'm watering w/ soil? Also if I add less perlite will I not have to water as often?

Yes, a 50/50 mix will require more waterings than you were doing before. I'd say at least once daily in flowering and daily veg if you're using lots of light. Good thing bout the stuff is its so flexable. I used a 50% mix and ran in on f&d tables in veg and watered twice a day once the roots were developed... in a top feed for flower I watered 4 times a day. It will also work with a single watering a day so I think you can have really good results with diff approaches.

If you are hand watering and don't want to water every day use less perlite like you said. I would make the investment and buy a top quality coco too.

Peace

 

[bonecarver_OG]

coco ph - around 6.0 works well

 

[Guest]

what should the pH of the soil & water be for coco?

This is the way I've done it: rinse the coco before use with ph'd water to 5.8. I rinse until the runoff ph is pretty close to what went in (by a coulple of tenths) then I make sure my nute water is within the range of 5.8 to 6.0.

 

[Guest]

Thanks VT and GN.

 

[Legit_User]

Hey my fellow growers.
I have been having a difficult time with my coco.
Some may remember I mixed up 40 cu ft. of coco and perlite and I couldn't get the ph below 6.4-6.3.
Now I went out and got a fresh bale of botainacare and have flushed a 5kg bale 3 times with ph'd water @ 5.5.
I started out with a ppm of 400 and now it's down to 60 but the PH will not budge.
I hear two different ways of checking coco. One is to take 1 part coco to 10 parts water and mix,drain and check.
Others say to check runoff.
I took a 5"x5"x7" planter and filled it with coco and proceded to flush the hell out of it. I poured no less than 3 gallons through it. (this is after the initial 3 flushes.)
Best runoff I can get is 6.3........
Any suggestion?
Stay peacefull

 

[-VT-]

I've never had issues at 6.3 using Botanicare....nor do I even bother testing runoff

That said, to lower PH using Botanicare (and most other brands...) increase EC strength....(add more nutes)...if you do this...you'll need to water frequently and get a good runoff...

good luck

 

[Legit_User]

Hey VT, thanks for the reply.
I am getting alot of conflicting info.
I been trying to get help at another site and wanted to post what I Have been/will doing.
Below is an article that follows with my two responses.
snip----

eres an article I thought was helpful, you may have already seen it form the other site, but I thought I would post it here also.







Coco Coir


Coco coir has become the media of choice amongst Australian growers over the past 5 years.

On a recent trip around Australia I was surprised to learn of the volumes of coir that retailers are now selling, with many (most) retailers telling me that coco coir now typically represents at least half, or more, of their media sales.

This speaks volumes about the humble coir because much of its’ ascending star has been driven by consumer choice and (hence) demand.



Positives


Occasionally I get onto websites and discuss coir with novice growers. The way I explain it to them is that coir represents the best of soil and hydro in a single media. While this is a simplistic method of describing coirs unique properties, it is also an effective way to help growers understand the media’s natural buffering qualities, natural root zone preservation qualities and the ability to provide optimized nutrition via hydroponic technologies.

To me, this makes coir the ideal media for novices who often grow in less than ideal environments. That is, coco coir, more so than any other media is extremely forgiving.

pH Buffering

Coco coir buffers at between pH 5.5 and 6.5. This means the media helps to maintain optimum root zone pH (resulting in optimum nutrient uptake).

Cation Exchange Capacity (CEC)

Coir has a high cation exchange capacity.

Cation exchange capacity refers a medias ability to exchange cations between mineral and organic matter and the plants roots.

Cations are positively charged elements such as calcium (Ca++), magnesium (Mg++), and potassium (K+).



Cations are held by negatively charged particles called colloids. The defining feature of colloids is that the particles are small and consequently the total surface area is huge. For this reason the negatively charged colloids are capable of holding enormous quantities of positively charged cations.

As plant roots uptake cations, other cations in the nutrient replace them on the colloid.

If there is a concentration of one particular cation in the media, other cations will force them off the colloid and take their place.

This means that a mineral balance is maintained in coir and these minerals are readily available for uptake.


Root Zone Health

Coco coir provides excellent insulation. This means that coco coir isn’t as prone to overheating, due to excessive ambient air temperatures, as many other mediums (making it ideal for warm geographical zones). This is because water tends to make its way into the lower regions of the coco coir, leaving the top layer dry. Because of this, heat needs to penetrate a drier top layer of coco coir before reaching the watered areas of the media. As water is a great conductor of energy (in the form of heat) the lower wet area being protected by a drier surface helps keep the lower areas of the media, where the bulk of the root mass is found, cooler. As media temperature and oxygen levels are interrelated (the warmer the media, the less oxygen) this insulation plays an important role in promoting root health.

Compare coco coir to rockwool, another run–to-waste media. There are some significant differences in moisture distribution and media insulation qualities. Rockwool tends to become evenly saturated. Water, thus, distributes evenly from top to bottom, leaving the rockwool, typically, very damp. This means that heat can travel throughout the media (dry rockwool is an excellent insulator; it is simply that water conducts heat). When the ambient air temperature is excessively warm, so too is the media. Depending on the extent of this problem (too warm – not enough oxygen), oxygen availability to the root zone can become dangerously low.

As I’ve already pointed out, coco coir tends not to do this. Water displaces from the surface of the media and moves into the lower regions. Because of this the media generally remains significantly cooler around the root zone of the plant.

Secondly, coco coir contains natural rooting compounds, in the form of potassium (electrolytes) and phosphorous (enzyme function/sugar production). Both potassium and phosphorous stimulate root growth and development.

Thirdly, coco coir has excellent air filled ‘porosity’ – the term used for the levels of oxygen availability (critical for transpiration) in the media. This is due to the large surface area of coco coir particles. As oxygen plays an all-important role in respiration (roots pumping nutrient to the plant) this factor further promotes root and (hence) plant health.

What all of these factors add up to is that coco coir provides a sound environment for the plant’s root zone. This factor should not be underestimated because healthy roots invariably lead to a healthy plant (and a healthy yield).


The Fundamentals of Coir (the good, the bad, and the ugly)

The coconut palm, unlike many other plants’, is a salt tolerant plant.

What happens with salt tolerant plants’ is that they uptake salt and displace it to areas of the plant where the salt can do the least harm. In the case of the coconut palm the salt is displaced to the coir – the very thing that we use as a growing media. This means coir can contain high levels of salt (sodium chloride), something which can prove toxic to many/most plants.

On top of this coir contains large amounts of potassium and quantities of other elements.

What this means is that coir requires special treatment to ensure a premium quality hydroponic media product is supplied to the end user.

Analysis of Coco Coir Sample

S 1978
P 126
K (Potassium) 3700*
Na (Sodium) 2022 *
Ca 119
Mg 104
Cu
Zn 3.2
Mn 3.8
Fe 12.2
B 7
Cl (Chloride) 3498*

All figures refer to parts per million (ppm).


Above, is an analysis of one batch of hydrated coco coir. It is easy to see that coco coir contains varying levels of micro and macro elements.

The most significant elements in the analysis are the high potassium levels and the extremely high sodium and chloride levels (sodium chloride = salt).

Potassium competes with magnesium and calcium while sodium competes with potassium for uptake. Furthermore, sodium chloride can be highly toxic to certain species of plants; even in relatively low levels, sodium chloride can have devastating effects on root health and development. For instance, this batch of coco coir caused phytotoxicity (yellowing of leaves, rusting/burning, sick plants etc) when trialled under controlled conditions next to another product that performed well.


Source of Material

Coir derived from palms that are grown 50kms inland will have far less sodium chloride present than coir that is derived from palms that are grown close to the sea. That is, less sodium chloride present in the soil results in less sodium chloride in the coir.

The origin of the coir is an important factor in determining the quality of the end product.



Flushing and Buffering

In order to prepare the raw coir product for use it is necessary to flush plentiful amounts of water through the product to wash out impurities (including sodium chloride).

Premium grade coir is then buffered with various elements to prepare the coir for use. This requires flushing the coir with mineral elements in order to compensate for potentially problematic levels of sodium chloride and potassium (and other elements where required).

For instance, Iron is sometimes used to offset sodium chloride while magnesium and calcium is used to compensate for the naturally present, often high levels of potassium and phosphorous (While potassium and phosphorous are naturally used by plants and are beneficial elements, extreme levels of these elements can result in imbalanced nutrition and mineral element lockout).

Typically, most suppliers of hydrated coir only flush the media and do not buffer it. This can prove detrimental to plant vigor and health, particularly in early growth.

Symptoms of toxicity include:

Rusting (particularly on leaf edges)
Yellowing
Slow stunted growth
Mineral deficiencies (due to uptake problems)
Purpling of stem


Treatment/Age of Raw Product


Coco coir has a shelf life where optimum performance is concerned (due to organic decomposition factors).

Ideally the raw coir used in hydroponic medias should be less than two years old.

Older coir is difficult to manage and will not last as long as newer coir.


Tips for using Coir


Run-to-waste regime

After many years of experimenting in coir, both in indoor and outdoor settings, with various crops I have found that running a 25% - 30% waste regime is the most user friendly means of growing in coir.

The 25 – 30% waste regime ensures that salt buildup in the media is kept to a minimum, and means flushing is typically never required; the agricultural standard being a 30% waste regime with the runoff being no more than 0.4EC higher than the original nutrient feed.

EC can be tested in the runoff and be compared to the nutrient EC.


Air Porosity

Typically, the bagged (hydrated) coir products sold via hydroponic outlets consists of fine particles and coir dust. While this means excellent fluid retention, it also means less than ideal air porosity in the media. Adding Perlite to the media will increase air porosity. A 60% coir to 40% Perlite mix being ideal (50/50 is also OK).

Another means of increasing air porosity is by mixing larger coir particles into the coir fines/dust, thus lifting the media and achieving a similar effect to a coir/perlite mix.

pH

Ideally, the nutrient should be maintained at between 6.1 (grow) and 6.3 (bloom).

pH cannot be measured in the runoff. Ie. The runoff does not accurately reflect what is happening within the coir where pH is concerned. To test the pH of coir, take a sample of the coir from the root zone and add 1 part of coir to 5 parts of distilled water, shake and measure pH.



Dealing With Sciaridae (Scarid Fly)

Perhaps one of the most complained about aspects of using coir is its affinity to Sciaridae (Scarid Fly). Sciaridae are attracted to organic and decomposing matter. This means coir (which is organic and decomposes) tends to attract Sciaridae.

No Biggie… They are easy to deal with!

Chemical Drench Options:

Active = Permethrin 50% (Brand name Axe etc; Group 3A insecticide; available through Ag suppliers in 1ltr quantities)

Permethrin is non-systemic and therefore leaves no residue in the plant when used as a drench.

Use at 2ml to 10ltr and water into media. Flush with pH adjusted solution after 2 hours.

Active = Diazonon (Organophosphate*) Diazonon is commonly used in the floriculture industry for eradication of fungus gnats. Application rates of 2ml – 6ml to 10ltr are used for this purpose. Diazonon can be found in various products (eg. Hortico Lawn Grub and Insect Killer etc). Treat a few plants first to test for Phytotoxicity.


Lorsban (Organophosphate*)

Lorsban can be used to eradicate Scarid Fly. Use at 1 - 2ml/10ltr. Treat a few plants first to test for Phytotoxicity.

Please Note: With all chemical pesticides HANDLE WITH CARE, KEEP OUT OF REACH OF CHILDREN, and READ MANUFACTURER WARNINGS.


Biological options such as predatory nematodes and mites are an extremely effective means in which to control Sciaridae. Hypoaspis is a small aggressive mite that inhabits the upper layer of the media. Steinernema feltiae is a nematode that quickly controls Sciaridae larvae numbers.

Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis: GnatrolTM is a product that is sold in many countries for the control of Scarid Fly. Unfortunately it is not available in Australia. However, ‘Vectobac’, which is made by the same company (Valent Biosciences) is available through some pest control suppliers. Both Gnatrol and Vectobac contain Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis.

Yellow sticky traps (A must have in any grow room) hung at media height will trap the adult Sciaridae. This will help reduce numbers. More importantly it will allow growers to monitor whether Sciaridae are present in their growing environment (amongst other things).



Why B’cuzz Coir

Source

Atami B’cuzz has a joint partnership with a major coir producer in Sri Lanka. Atami ships compressed coir to the Netherlands where it undergoes rigid batch testing and treatment.

Because Atami owns its own facility in Sri Lanka they are able to guarantee the quality of the original untreated/raw product (age and origin).

Atami coir is sourced from coir that is grown 50km’s (or more) inland from the coast meaning the original coir source is low in sodium chloride. Furthermore, the coir is under two years old which means the coirs composition is ideal for use as a hydroponic media.


Treatment

Atami utilizes a unique steaming and buffering process for the coir at its facilities in the Netherlands and then ships it around the world. Atami is the only company in the world that uses this steaming process to flush impurities from the media.

In this process, the coir is initially saturated with calcium and magnesium solutions. After this, the coir is steamed to 900 C and then flushed with large amounts of water; the combination of these two processes ensures that impurities are efficiently and effectively flushed from the media.

After this B’cuzz coir is lightly fertilized to achieve optimized nutritional balance within the media.

Air Porosity

There are two methods used for measuring Air Filled Porosity (AFP) in the coir. These are:

The European EN-method: Loose coir (no compression) is saturated with water and allowed free drainage for 24hrs. AFP is then measured. Atami coir measures at 35 – 40% AFP under this method.

The Dutch BLGG method: Coir is slightly compressed in a container and saturated with water where it is then allowed free drainage for 24hrs. Atami coir measures at 20 – 25% AFP under this method.


The final product comes with an RHP European quality assurance standard.

Because of Atami’s rigid standards, B’cuzz coir is one of the two largest selling coirs in the European retail hydroponics market.

Snip----
Great read AB!!
I never caught this at the other site.
So, am I to understand that the 1 part to 5 parts with DISTILLED water is the right way?
Distilled being 7.0 ph and ppm of 0?
Coco being inert, you would think the runoff would be 7.0.
I have been flushing with 5.5 and getting 6.3, I bet the 7.0 brings it up.??
The ph of nutrient should be 6.1-6.3, so the PH of the coco should be the same?
Seems a little high?
I will report back with the 1 to 5 test.
Stay peace and thanks again.

--Snip---

Ok.
So I did the ph test and it came back 7.2..............
I did some more reading and canna coco's site says 5.2-6.2 for ph.
They do not say how to check ph though.
In the past I just flushed this stuff and grew.... Now that I have "learnt" a few things it seems like everything I do gets worse. hahaha.
I need to stick to aero or soil BUT, I will not give up.
I got pissed and filled up my 55 gallon barrel and ph'd it to 5.8. I threw ALL the coco in. It's like a soup now. Probably 5-1 water/coco.
The ph rose to 6.0 already!!!!!!!
My plan is to let it sit over night, adjust ph again and let it sit and see what the ph is.
My runoff is now 20ppm.
Stay peacefull




end snip----

Anything anybody wants to add?
I bought some monkey juice and almost bought the canna coco organic OMRI listed coco nutes.
Anybody use any of these?
I used to use the canna coco but the monkey juice is supposed to be better or your money back.
I like trying new stuff, half the reason I am always running into problems.
Stay peacefull

 

[-VT-]

-My plants are in a coco/perlite mix...50/50...not 100% coco...so i think cutting it makes a difference (as Gronut astutely pointed out earlier in his eloquent post)....
-I use Botanicare....PH the solution right before I feed...and I run to waste....
-enzymes are a must....gotta have enzymes....
-I have healthy plants and I have not been using Cal Mag Plus....Just PBP, LK, Sweet, and Enzymes....(if this changes my ass will procure cal mag plus ASAP!)....but for now my plants are happy....well the adults lol
-My bloom plants get low TDS source water though....and the PH always is a rock solid 6.0 after adding everything...this is at 1.6EC...lower EC it will hit 6.3 (but I just adjust it to 6.0...feed....and get on with my day)
-When using pure source water....there is no need to check PH using Botanicare...it's just...well, just superfluous, frankly....

peace

 

[gaiusmarius]

Hey my fellow growers.
I have been having a difficult time with my coco.
Some may remember I mixed up 40 cu ft. of coco and perlite and I couldn't get the ph below 6.4-6.3.
Now I went out and got a fresh bale of botainacare and have flushed a 5kg bale 3 times with ph'd water @ 5.5.
I started out with a ppm of 400 and now it's down to 60 but the PH will not budge.
I hear two different ways of checking coco. One is to take 1 part coco to 10 parts water and mix,drain and check.
Others say to check runoff.
I took a 5"x5"x7" planter and filled it with coco and proceded to flush the hell out of it. I poured no less than 3 gallons through it. (this is after the initial 3 flushes.)
Best runoff I can get is 6.3........
Any suggestion?
Stay peacefull

that's kind of strange. i have never before seen coco that wouldn't slowly adapt to the ph or ec that's going in. what is normal is that it takes ages to budge, because that stuff can hold an incredible amount of water. but basically this is nothing to worry about, just start your grow and keep the ph of the nutrient solution at 5.8 after a while the coco will adapt. but it does take a lot of water to effect it. that goes both ways, which is a great advantage in terms of buffering, but it means that to flush your coco ec to below 0.8 takes a tremendous amount of water at the end of the grow.

great article about coco you posted. some very good and useful info for the ones starting out with this great medium. one thing that should be said though, atami was not the first to steam clean their coco. nor are they the only ones that use this system. canna coco was the first to sell coco. they very quickly realized that the steam clean is essential. that was many years ago. the botanicare coco slabs are good though i must say, they were very well buffered, both ph and ec were as perfect as it gets, with out me having to do any flushing.

 

[bongoman]

Hey everyone

How important are Cannazyme and Rhizotonic when using Canna A + B?

Also, I'm now flowering - small buds have appeared - does it sounds about right that I'm running A+B at 2.5mL/litre? I know this is all strain dependent but I'm still trying to work this all out.

 

[cough_cough_eer]

? about storage

? about storage

storing coco between grows
I finished my grow, flushed the coco with the hose for about 5 min. let it drain all day and put it in a rubbermaid container w/ a lid (outside) till Im ready to use it. Will I have problems with this method? should it be stored dry? When i get ready to use it should I flush it again with ph adjusted water with cal mag???

 

[-VT-]

Great post gaiusmarious Glad you're back to posting here

I store mine (recycled coco perlite) in an enzyme solution....lol I just dump the stuff in a bucket and pour water and cannazyme in there...lots of it

enzymes are a must...especially if recycling....IMO