Unhappy plants- TOO MUCH CO2

[dramamine]

U have sealed room?

And what about ppm when is light. I have now 1350 watts in box. Now dont know what fixed the problem, i changet ppm to lower, on night added fresh air and now lower the light.

Yes, I have a totally sealed room and I run around 800-900ppm lights on. I run more lights, but I think you should be able to run similar. It just occurred to me you might be having trouble caused by a CO2 burner. Also, lights off, it rises to maybe 1300 to 1500, most.

 

[josepslo]

I have bottled CO2 and sensor. I set now to 900-1000ppm. Now just have problem with temperature, dont know how to set right temperature in box, and where to place the sensor. One sensor is on top of plants. And AC senson is a little above the light. Which position is best for AC sensor? When set on under the light is so hot, because the light warms up.

 

[Ca++]

Your lighting is 300w a meter. If your lights are a typical 2.5umol/w then you have 750umol coming from the light, per meter of grow. You won't get that 750 PPFD though, with the light high enough for even coverage. You can expect 600, and no more than 650, as average readings. Though peaks under the lamp could see 900 or more.
These are good lighting levels. Nobodies going to call it high light though. It's plenty, without risk of causing problems.

Raised CO2 means reduced water use. To combat this, the EC is high in CO2 grows. If your grow was fine, then more CO2 caused issues, it's unlikely to be a high EC showing itself.

What actually happens, is like them closing their mouths a bit, as it's less struggle to get some co2. I'm trying to learn how fast they can chance stomata size, but a couple of hours is in the ballpark.

You really don't need a stomatal conductance measuring device. Not with that water usage. Your plants stopped drinking, from the sounds of things. Only, they stopped completely.

It's interesting to see you turned it off, in one go. You have not been changing co2 at a speed the plants can keep up with. I'm not really sure of any time-frame, between introduction and fault. It could be significant though. Like the two hour recovery. Which I presume means they are drinking again.

Be nice to see them in a healthy state. To further consider what happened.

 

[josepslo]

Your lighting is 300w a meter. If your lights are a typical 2.5umol/w then you have 750umol coming from the light, per meter of grow. You won't get that 750 PPFD though, with the light high enough for even coverage. You can expect 600, and no more than 650, as average readings. Though peaks under the lamp could see 900 or more.
These are good lighting levels. Nobodies going to call it high light though. It's plenty, without risk of causing problems.

Raised CO2 means reduced water use. To combat this, the EC is high in CO2 grows. If your grow was fine, then more CO2 caused issues, it's unlikely to be a high EC showing itself.

What actually happens, is like them closing their mouths a bit, as it's less struggle to get some co2. I'm trying to learn how fast they can chance stomata size, but a couple of hours is in the ballpark.

You really don't need a stomatal conductance measuring device. Not with that water usage. Your plants stopped drinking, from the sounds of things. Only, they stopped completely.

It's interesting to see you turned it off, in one go. You have not been changing co2 at a speed the plants can keep up with. I'm not really sure of any time-frame, between introduction and fault. It could be significant though. Like the two hour recovery. Which I presume means they are drinking again.

Be nice to see them in a healthy state. To further consider what happened.

thank you for this information. I think u just miscalculate, i have 1350w in 2.88 square meter. I have 3x 450w light side by side. Now I water every 3 days. But dont know why again are not all happy. 4 plants are happy but 6 are not. One day they are fine and one day not again. I set ppm to 800-900ppm and light is 35cm above plants with 75% dimming. What is best temperature? And where put sensor?

 

[Ca++]

Oh, you added a light in post #20. I don't imagine it helped with your problem.

Is it brewing or industrial gas?

 

[josepslo]

Oh, you added a light in post #20. I don't imagine it helped with your problem.

Is it brewing or industrial gas?

I think it is industrial gas

 

[Ca++]

As someone suggested earlier, if the co2 comes from a burner, a poor flame has led to problems.
Drinks grade co2 is clean, and what's often sort to enrich rooms.
Industrial grade can be a combustion byproduct, which leaves you at the mercy of your provider. Often it's used for cooling, in well ventilated areas. Also welding, in workshop conditions.

As a quick test, you could substitute your bottle, for candles. Those tea-lights have a few hours burn, and you may only need a couple to make some decent co2 levels. Alternately, get a bottle that was meant for brewing. You will use it eventually. The home brew market will provide, if the pub route fails.

I feel it's a strong possibility, as your plants seem to of slammed the stomata tightly shut. Such that water movement has suffered a lot.

If you have a carbon monoxide alarm near your boiler/furnace, it might be interesting just to pop it in your room. Or, it could be pointless, as there is more to worry about.

If you do the candles, I would be interested to know how many candles seemed to be enough for 1000?ppm. I have only used them around small tents in vented spaces, but just one was remarkable.

 

[gmanwho]

us should vent on an off during lights off. Build up of gases need to be vented.

Co2 Burners need oxygen to produce a proper burn/flame, so an occasional vent during lights on maybe necessary.

Burner flames should mostly be blue then red. Check the burner nozzle for corrosion or build up and clean them.

A fan blowing towards the burner could cause the flame to flicker causing incomplete burns adding to unspent fuel in the room.

A basic rule is co2 should be set 250ppm more then your PPFD. so if you have 800ppfd, your co2 should be set to 1050ppm. More is not better.

Calibration of the c02 sensor maybe necessary.

I found Co2 burners with ceramic heating type elements work the best.

PPFD measurements should be taken at canopy level. If you are at 1850 ppfd, that is extremely high in your situation. dim the lights back and keep the temps up to 80's even at night.

Looks to me you have the classic over lighting led situation. not matching the room vpd, and or lacking proper nutrient or delivery, or an over saturated mediums.

 

[josepslo]

us should vent on an off during lights off. Build up of gases need to be vented.

Co2 Burners need oxygen to produce a proper burn/flame, so an occasional vent during lights on maybe necessary.

Burner flames should mostly be blue then red. Check the burner nozzle for corrosion or build up and clean them.

A fan blowing towards the burner could cause the flame to flicker causing incomplete burns adding to unspent fuel in the room.

A basic rule is co2 should be set 250ppm more then your PPFD. so if you have 800ppfd, your co2 should be set to 1050ppm. More is not better.

Calibration of the c02 sensor maybe necessary.

I found Co2 burners with ceramic heating type elements work the best.

PPFD measurements should be taken at canopy level. If you are at 1850 ppfd, that is extremely high in your situation. dim the lights back and keep the temps up to 80's even at night.

Looks to me you have the classic over lighting led situation. not matching the room vpd, and or lacking proper nutrient or delivery, or an over saturated mediums.

I have bottled CO2. Now its all okey with co2.

 

[josepslo]

Hello again, now is week 6 in flower. Last week they are very beautiful and green. But now they have begun to turn yellow slowly. I think I burned them a little with fertilizer, but I don't know why they started to turn yellow now. The previous grow the same thing has happened in the last 3 weeks.

 

[Normannen]

"Normally stomata open when the light strikes the leaf in the morning and close during the night. The immediate cause is a change in the turgor of the guard cells. The inner wall of each guard cell is thick and elastic. When turgor develops within the two guard cells flanking each stoma, the thin outer walls bulge out and force the inner walls into a crescent shape. This opens the stoma. When the guard cells lose turgor, the elastic inner walls regain their original shape and the stoma closes.

Time	Osmotic Pressure lb/in2
7 A.M.	212
11A.M.	456
5 P.M.	272
12 Midnight	191

The table shows the osmotic pressure measured at different times of day in typical guard cells. The osmotic pressure within the other cells of the lower epidermis remained constant at 150 lb/in2 (~1000 kilopascal, kPa). When the osmotic pressure of the guard cells became greater than that of the surrounding cells, the stomata opened. In the evening, when the osmotic pressure of the guard cells dropped to nearly that of the surrounding cells, the stomata closed."

So, basically you should have your CO2 running only in the light time... with the highest concentrations in the morning

 

[Normannen]

Opening stomata​

The increase in osmotic pressure in the guard cells is caused by an uptake of potassium ions (K+). The concentration of K+ in open guard cells far exceeds that in the surrounding cells. This is how it accumulates:

• Blue light is absorbed by phototropin which activates a proton pump (an H+-ATPase) in the plasma membrane of the guard cell.
• ATP, generated by the light reactions of photosynthesis, drives the pump.
• As protons (H+) are pumped out of the cell, its interior becomes increasingly negative.
• This attracts additional potassium ions into the cell, raising its osmotic pressure.

Closing stomata​

Although open stomata are essential for photosynthesis, they also expose the plant to the risk of losing water through transpiration. Some 90% of the water taken up by a plant is lost in transpiration. In angiosperms and gymnosperms (but not in ferns and lycopsids), Abscisic acid (ABA) is the hormone that triggers closing of the stomata when soil water is insufficient to keep up with transpiration (which often occurs around mid-day).
The mechanism:

• ABA binds to receptors at the surface of the plasma membrane of the guard cells.
• The receptors activate several interconnecting pathways which converge to produce
  • a rise in pH in the cytosol
  • transfer of Ca2+ from the vacuole to the cytosol
• These changes stimulate the loss of negatively-charged ions (anions), especially NO3− and Cl−, from the cell and also the loss of K+ from the cell.
• The loss of these solutes in the cytosol reduces the osmotic pressure of the cell and thus turgor.
• The stomata close.

Open stomata also provide an opening through which bacteria can invade the interior of the leaf. However, guard cells have receptors that can detect the presence of molecules associated with bacteria called pathogen-associated molecular patterns (PAMPs). LPS and flagellin are examples. When the guard cells detect these PAMPs, ABA mediates closure of the stoma and thus close the door to bacterial entry.
This system of innate immunity resembles that found in animals.

source: https://bio.libretexts.org/Bookshel...lant_Physiology/16.2D:_Gas_Exchange_in_Plants

 

[gmanwho]

I have bottled CO2. Now its all okey with co2.

If somehow you think the following pictures you posted is "okey" with you, then carry on....

Theres always next time

 

[josepslo]

If somehow you think the following pictures you posted is "okey" with you, then carry on....

Theres always next time

yes i know here dont look okey. But i think its not CO2 problem now. I think i have maybe problem with fertilizer. I added plagron terra bloom 5ml/l, sugar royal 1ml/l, pk 13/14 1ml/l and green sensation 1ml/l.

There was photo 1 week before and i think its all okey there.