Uncle Bens topping method SUPRISED!!

[papaduc]

" This guy isn't getting the entire jist of plant processes and tissue development By letting the plant grow to 5-6 nodes you insure more root mass just like potentially you'll get more bud yields with increased root and foliar mass. With more root mass, more "energy will be directed to the foliage that is left so it will grow faster.

That is a wrong statement on so many levels that to go into it in depth would take too long. It's uncle ben's theory and no more than that. It has no grounding in scientific or biological fact.

A cannabis plant from seedling grows strong and vigorously and quickly.

But It does that on what root mass? Think about this for a minute. If what uncle ben said was true, this would not be possible. It would need to wait for a root mass to become established before it could grow with vigor. This is not the case.

A plant does not need a strong root mass to be already established for it to grow rapidly. These things revolve around signalling processes sent from roots to growing shoots and are based on a number of variables, none of which are to do with how much root mass the plant has at the time of topping.

What uncle ben is essentially saying is that the plant will grow more quickly when chopped back to it's 2nd node... it's an oxymoron

I respect a challenge to my methods though, and if uncle ben will show you pictures which prove what he is saying to be true, I am watching with interest.

I am sure based on years of experience that there is no slow down or loss in vigor whatsoever when a plant is topped at a young age and the rate of growth and the end results will be no greater by allowing the plant to grow bigger only to be chopped down again.

This is the seedling. We can call this day 1

This is 7 days later

It has now been topped.

This is 12 days of growth later

 

[CloudyAmberDay]

I respect a challenge to my methods though, and if uncle ben will show you pictures which prove what he is saying to be true, I am watching with interest.

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]BTW, tried to subscribe to IC Mag a while back and as usual some one stole my handle.

Also, if anyone has an inside track to a mod or potroast I'll be glad to post the original photos as long as they'll stick them in Post #1 where they belong.

Tio[/FONT]"


How many clones did you get from your pinch?

I do it this way to get clones + 4 mains Sea of bush.

Here is 10 days later and all my clones have rooted. More Colas and More plants.

 

[Weeded1s]

Lol many options for clones as all new under growrth is fighting to be a top. Not max. 4. If your smart youll clean up the bottoms a touch before flowering so good air circulation can get through....and vuala many many many clone sites to choose from . I assume i should also add your top wont be best for rooting as lowers have a quicker turn around time

 

[Weeded1s]

The reason why I dont quote things is becuse im not still trying to prove to people I know what im talking about. They know I know what im talking about. Im by no means the master..but ive played with them a lot and thats the best way to learn.
P.s. why arent you getting mad at everyone else who disagrees with you

 

[papaduc]

No pictures are showing mate.

If he's doing it to get clones.. well.. we're talking about different points. I'll take them later on I don't mind. In fact if I'm running from seed I'll take them in flower so they stay on hold til I can see what's worth keeping. Look here and see what I mean

But with regards the growth rate, my point still stands. In my experience there's no increase in growth rate by waiting for 6 nodes before topping based on there being a larger root mass by that point.

In fact, the earlier the plant makes those lateral branches into main stems the sooner they begin life as main stems and the thicker their growth will be. If they are at the shooting point when the top is taken, they emerge from the plant as main branches, rather than having grown an inch or two as laterals. It's a small point I admit, but if we're splitting hairs on it, it's still one more reason to top early.

Anyway, I'm sure uncle ben is an experienced grower and I respect that.

Nobody should listen to either of us to be honest, it's easy enough to find out for yourself. Neither way will put your plants at risk, so experiment and find out.

 

[Dropped Cat]

Good topic, hotly debated, civil even.

I top most of the plants I send over to flower. Vegged for weeks
under 72w PL L. The buds are more even sized and healthier
than the single stalk plants of the same cultivars.

The big top bud of the single stalk is impressive, but in my
non climate controlled system danger lurks in them big top
buds.

I do flower my NLD types untopped, I get better yields from them that way.
Tied up and twisted, got buds from top to bottom of all the branches, lol.

Great thread!

 

[Weeded1s]

We were talking about cutting the plant in half but apparently now were talking about clones. Supercrop ftw if your going for clones. I like to choose my clones sites not be stuck with hatever is above the 2nd node...one of wich is a TOP

 

[stoned40yrs]

I think uncle ben should sign up and start his thread on how everyone needs to feed N and keep your plants green till the end.

 

[CloudyAmberDay]

I think uncle ben should sign up and start his thread on how everyone needs to feed N and keep your plants green till the end.

I see you pulled up a chair with some popcorn and a subject. But since you want to be off topic here is some of his feeding tips.

He has contributed a wealth of information to the growing community


https://www.icmag.com/modules/Tutorials/Breeding/971.htm

https://www.icmag.com/modules/Tutorials/

The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering

Contributed by: Uncle Ben

A common mistake for growers when they reach the flowering stage isto start hitting the plants with a high P fert like 10-60-10,continuing to use this blend exclusively, and when their plants startexperiencing a deficit of N or micros as reflected by the dropping oflower leaves and chlorosis, they wonder why. Plants flower as aresponse to long nights, not because of fert blends high in P. A ratioof 10-60-10 is WAY to high in P. The plant will only take what it needsand compete for other elements that may be more important at the time.

You may have heard that too much N can inhibit flowering. Noquestion about it, exclusive use of a plant food that is rich in N suchas blood meal, a 5-1-1 blend, or ammonium nitrate may inhibit floweringespecially if the phosphorous level is low, but most balanced blendshave sufficient amount of P to do the job.Manufacturers/horticulturists will give you element analysis and whateffect the elements have on plant growth, but remember this does notnecessarily mean you will get better yields. Using a high P fertexclusively during flowering can actually work against you. It's anabundant amount of healthy leaves going into 12/12 that produce a lotof bud, not high P ferts.

I rotate fert blends as the plant *requires* them, not because itis "the thing to do." For example, when your plants are going thru thestretch phase during early flowering, they may need more N, especiallyif you're getting some yellowing in the lower/mid leaves. Give up thecannabis paradigms, and give them what they need. Go back to mild highP fert when the stretch ends, maintaining the foliage in a healthystate of growth until harvest for maximum yields. A 1-3-2 blend such asPeter's Pro Blossom Booster, 10-30-20, is one of the best floweringblends on the market because of several factors - it is higher innitrate N and Mg. It is sold under the Jack's Classic label. An addedbenefit of Peter's blends is their use of high quality, very pure saltsthat will cut down on root burn.

Added by: snoofer
Contributed by: Uncle Ben

Quite often I hear groans from folks having leaf problems - ?Help, my leaves are cupping and the leaf edges are turning brown!?, or, ?My plant's leaf tips are curling down and turning black ....what's wrong?? Unless insect damage has occurred or the plant is suffering from a severe case of calcium deficiency, the plant is trying to tell you that it is water stressed. It's hard to tell *exactly* what the culprit is, and unfortunately the ?solution? the grower chooses many times is not the right one. A mis-diagnosis only serves to make matters worse by promoting further decline. I?ll try to cover some of the more common causes that can induce these common symptoms and try to offer a few simple solutions. The ultimate and correct solution is in the hands of the grower.

1. Over-fertilizing - the most common cause of leaf cupping aka leaf margin rolling, leaf margin burn, and leaf tip curl/burn is the overzealous use of too much plant food in relationship to factors such as plant vigor and rate of growth. The first unit of a plant to show moisture stress is the leaf at its margins and/or tips, reflected by margin rolling (cupping) or burning. A hard, crispy feel to the leaf frequently occurs as well, as opposed to a soft and cool feel of a happy leaf. When you have a high concentration of salts in solution (or in the root medium) compared to lower salinity levels found in the plant?s tissue, water is actually drawn out of the plant across the root gradient in order to fix the ppm imbalance. IOW, this is a natural, osmotic response that serves to equalize salinity levels on both sides of the root?s epidermal gradient. Back off on the amount and/or frequency of plant food. Too much plant food can also burn the roots, especially the sensitive root tips, which then creates another set of problems. Note for the bio folks - as soil dries, the concentration of the remaining salts rises further exacerbating the problem.

2. High Heat - the plant is losing water via it?s leaves faster than what can be replaced by the root system. The leaf responds by leaf margin cupping or rolling (up or down) in order to conserve moisture. A good example is reflected by the appearance of broad-bladed turf grass on a hot summer day, high noon, with low soil moisture levels - the leaf blade will roll in and the grass will take on a dull, greyish-green appearance. Upon sunrise when moisture levels have returned to normal, the leaf blade will be flat. Lower the heat and concentrate on developing a large, robust root system by practicing sound plant culture. An efficient and effective root system will go a long way to prevent heat induced leaf dessication and leaf margin curling. One short episode of high heat is enough to permanently disable or destroy leaf tissue and cause a general decline in the leaves affected, which often occurs to leaves found at the top of the plant located near HID lamps. The damaged leaf (usually) does not fully recover, no matter what you do. Bummer in the summer. One can only look to new growth for indications that the problem has been corrected.

3. High Light - yes, it?s true, you can give our faves too much light. Cannabis does not receive full sun from sunrise to sunset in its natural state. It is shaded or given reduced light levels because of adjacent plant material, cloudy conditions, rain, dust, twilight periods of early morning and late afternoon, and light intensity changes caused by a change in the seasons. Too much light mainly serves to bleach out and destroy chlorophyll as opposed to causing leaf cupping, but it often goes hand-in-hand with high heat for indoor growers. Again, back off on the light and concentrate on developing/maintaining an efficient and robust root system.

4. Overwatering - this practice only serves to weaken the root system by depriving the roots of proper gas exchange. IOW, the roots are not getting enough oxygen which creates an anerobic condition causing root decline and root rot with the end result showing up as leaf stress, stunted growth, and in severe cases, death. Alot of times folks think the plant is not getting enough plant food (which it can't under such adverse conditions), they add more nutes for a "curative", and just add insult to injury.

5. Underwatering - not only is the plant now stressed due to a low supply of adequate moisture, but carbohydrate production has been greatly compromised (screwed up). Step up the watering frequency, and if need be, organic growers may need to water from the bottom up until moisture levels reach a norm throughout the medium. If the pot feels light to the lift - it?s time to water. Don?t wait until the soil pulls away from the sides of the pot or leaves droop before you water. And of course, leach once in a while to get rid of excess salts.

Happy gardening,
Uncle Ben

You can argue with uncle ben all you want, but he is one of the best gardners/farmers that has contributed to these forums over 20 years.

THERE IS NO DEBATE! NO BEST METHOD TO REDISTRIBUTE HORMONES/AUXINS/APICAL DOMINANCE - IT'S ALL OPINION AND WHAT WORKS FOR YOU.

Yes caps necessary. Feel free to educate yourselves instead of being trolls

 

[Weeded1s]

1st get his nuts out of your hands and I bet you could type instead of copy and paste.
2ndly u come on this site begging for help practically and now some of the same people that helped your pathetic excuse for a grow out ..you call them trolls....when you sir are the copy, paste troll of nottenham. Your a real class act. Now go xerox something.

 

[papaduc]

There's no doubt uncle ben seems a keen gardener, but you should always take the main principles of gardening under your belt and then test the others before you accept them.

Every gardener has different opinions brother and a lot of them have as much or more experience and knowledge than uncle ben.

Is a high P better than a high K feed for flowering? Uncle ben suggests a 2-6-4 blend or thereabouts, other very experienced growers would suggest otherwise, and might say that isn't a well balanced feed as UB suggests it is. They would say 3-4-5 is a better more balanced food and easier to tweak slightly with a pk booster of your choice, and I'd agree with them.

Who's right and wrong? Only you'll be the judge of that.

Same thing applies here. Top your next lot of seedlings as soon as the shoot emerges from the 2nd node and then wait for the others to get to 6 nodes and top them. See how they compare.

Take it easy

 

[CloudyAmberDay]

Every gardener has different opinions

What's up papaduc? I definitely agree with you. Years and years of fine tuning to what YOU prefer and what makes YOU feel successful.

I've done both methods and to be honest they seem to work the same, you are redistributing the auxins and achieving apical dominance in the same manner. I might even wait for 8 nodes if I want a bunch of clones.

Have you seen that main line tutorial? google it, that shizz look's insane! It's by nug buckets.

When I'm really feeling brave I want to try the mainline tutorial.

I've tried super cropping, lst'ing, topping, lollipopping, defoliating, a lot of diff. experiments.

Super cropping and lst'ing is what I use on autoflowers.

I top photo-periods.

It's such a fun plant to play with but can be expensive too!!

Take it easy mate

 

[stoned40yrs]

I see you pulled up a chair with some popcorn and a subject. But since you want to be off topic here is some of his feeding tips.

He has contributed a wealth of information to the growing community


https://www.icmag.com/modules/Tutorials/Breeding/971.htm

https://www.icmag.com/modules/Tutorials/

The never ending abuse of Phosphorous to enhance flowering

Contributed by: Uncle Ben

A common mistake for growers when they reach the flowering stage isto start hitting the plants with a high P fert like 10-60-10,continuing to use this blend exclusively, and when their plants startexperiencing a deficit of N or micros as reflected by the dropping oflower leaves and chlorosis, they wonder why. Plants flower as aresponse to long nights, not because of fert blends high in P. A ratioof 10-60-10 is WAY to high in P. The plant will only take what it needsand compete for other elements that may be more important at the time.

You may have heard that too much N can inhibit flowering. Noquestion about it, exclusive use of a plant food that is rich in N suchas blood meal, a 5-1-1 blend, or ammonium nitrate may inhibit floweringespecially if the phosphorous level is low, but most balanced blendshave sufficient amount of P to do the job.Manufacturers/horticulturists will give you element analysis and whateffect the elements have on plant growth, but remember this does notnecessarily mean you will get better yields. Using a high P fertexclusively during flowering can actually work against you. It's anabundant amount of healthy leaves going into 12/12 that produce a lotof bud, not high P ferts.

I rotate fert blends as the plant *requires* them, not because itis "the thing to do." For example, when your plants are going thru thestretch phase during early flowering, they may need more N, especiallyif you're getting some yellowing in the lower/mid leaves. Give up thecannabis paradigms, and give them what they need. Go back to mild highP fert when the stretch ends, maintaining the foliage in a healthystate of growth until harvest for maximum yields. A 1-3-2 blend such asPeter's Pro Blossom Booster, 10-30-20, is one of the best floweringblends on the market because of several factors - it is higher innitrate N and Mg. It is sold under the Jack's Classic label. An addedbenefit of Peter's blends is their use of high quality, very pure saltsthat will cut down on root burn.

Added by: snoofer
Contributed by: Uncle Ben

View ImageQuite often I hear groans from folks having leaf problems - ?Help, my leaves are cupping and the leaf edges are turning brown!?, or, ?My plant's leaf tips are curling down and turning black ....what's wrong?? Unless insect damage has occurred or the plant is suffering from a severe case of calcium deficiency, the plant is trying to tell you that it is water stressed. It's hard to tell *exactly* what the culprit is, and unfortunately the ?solution? the grower chooses many times is not the right one. A mis-diagnosis only serves to make matters worse by promoting further decline. I?ll try to cover some of the more common causes that can induce these common symptoms and try to offer a few simple solutions. The ultimate and correct solution is in the hands of the grower.

1. Over-fertilizing - the most common cause of leaf cupping aka leaf margin rolling, leaf margin burn, and leaf tip curl/burn is the overzealous use of too much plant food in relationship to factors such as plant vigor and rate of growth. The first unit of a plant to show moisture stress is the leaf at its margins and/or tips, reflected by margin rolling (cupping) or burning. A hard, crispy feel to the leaf frequently occurs as well, as opposed to a soft and cool feel of a happy leaf. When you have a high concentration of salts in solution (or in the root medium) compared to lower salinity levels found in the plant?s tissue, water is actually drawn out of the plant across the root gradient in order to fix the ppm imbalance. IOW, this is a natural, osmotic response that serves to equalize salinity levels on both sides of the root?s epidermal gradient. Back off on the amount and/or frequency of plant food. Too much plant food can also burn the roots, especially the sensitive root tips, which then creates another set of problems. Note for the bio folks - as soil dries, the concentration of the remaining salts rises further exacerbating the problem.

2. High Heat - the plant is losing water via it?s leaves faster than what can be replaced by the root system. The leaf responds by leaf margin cupping or rolling (up or down) in order to conserve moisture. A good example is reflected by the appearance of broad-bladed turf grass on a hot summer day, high noon, with low soil moisture levels - the leaf blade will roll in and the grass will take on a dull, greyish-green appearance. Upon sunrise when moisture levels have returned to normal, the leaf blade will be flat. Lower the heat and concentrate on developing a large, robust root system by practicing sound plant culture. An efficient and effective root system will go a long way to prevent heat induced leaf dessication and leaf margin curling. One short episode of high heat is enough to permanently disable or destroy leaf tissue and cause a general decline in the leaves affected, which often occurs to leaves found at the top of the plant located near HID lamps. The damaged leaf (usually) does not fully recover, no matter what you do. Bummer in the summer. One can only look to new growth for indications that the problem has been corrected.

3. High Light - yes, it?s true, you can give our faves too much light. Cannabis does not receive full sun from sunrise to sunset in its natural state. It is shaded or given reduced light levels because of adjacent plant material, cloudy conditions, rain, dust, twilight periods of early morning and late afternoon, and light intensity changes caused by a change in the seasons. Too much light mainly serves to bleach out and destroy chlorophyll as opposed to causing leaf cupping, but it often goes hand-in-hand with high heat for indoor growers. Again, back off on the light and concentrate on developing/maintaining an efficient and robust root system.

4. Overwatering - this practice only serves to weaken the root system by depriving the roots of proper gas exchange. IOW, the roots are not getting enough oxygen which creates an anerobic condition causing root decline and root rot with the end result showing up as leaf stress, stunted growth, and in severe cases, death. Alot of times folks think the plant is not getting enough plant food (which it can't under such adverse conditions), they add more nutes for a "curative", and just add insult to injury.

5. Underwatering - not only is the plant now stressed due to a low supply of adequate moisture, but carbohydrate production has been greatly compromised (screwed up). Step up the watering frequency, and if need be, organic growers may need to water from the bottom up until moisture levels reach a norm throughout the medium. If the pot feels light to the lift - it?s time to water. Don?t wait until the soil pulls away from the sides of the pot or leaves droop before you water. And of course, leach once in a while to get rid of excess salts.

Happy gardening,
Uncle Ben

You can argue with uncle ben all you want, but he is one of the best gardners/farmers that has contributed to these forums over 20 years.

THERE IS NO DEBATE! NO BEST METHOD TO REDISTRIBUTE HORMONES/AUXINS/APICAL DOMINANCE - IT'S ALL OPINION AND WHAT WORKS FOR YOU.

Yes caps necessary. Feel free to educate yourselves instead of being trolls

I'm sorry, I guess I was wrong. How about you, me and uncle ben get together, sing kumbaya and swap spit?

 

[CloudyAmberDay]

I'm sorry, I guess I was wrong. How about you, me and uncle ben get together, sing kumbaya and swap spit?

keep the thread on track, sorry.

 

[papaduc]

I've done both methods and to be honest they seem to work the same, you are redistributing the auxins and achieving apical dominance in the same manner.

But are you getting the same growth out of them? Or does waiting to 6 nodes before chopping them not take a week back off your veg time?

When you say you get a bunch of clones from the 8 node plants, where are you taking these from?

Do you know that any side shoot at any point in the plant's life will make a clone?

When it comes to this method the only criticism I have is the chopping down of the plant in the belief that it's growth will be quicker after that point, based on the fact that it'll have more root mass by then.

I strongly doubt this is true and probably needs to be omitted from the original description. If you want to top at the 2 node, top at the second node. Don't wait til the 8th.

If you want clones, take them any time. All you do when you take clones from seed plants that early, unless you are cloning to determine sex, is give yourself plants to maintain which you don't even know whether you're going to keep. Taking them later on means you don't have to deal with a lot of vegging plants which might be thrown out anyway. [/quote]

Have you seen that main line tutorial? google it, that shizz look's insane! It's by nug buckets.

I've just checked it out now that you said. I've never seen it called that before, but it is one more good way to train your plants.

You can do a similar thing when you top at the second node by spreading the four growing shoots along a stick so they go outward by about a foot...then when they grow a bit taller, topping them one more time. The laterals should now fill in backwards towards the gap you created and give you a nice canopy. I call it chopstick training because I use those wooden chopstick skewers to do it

When I'm really feeling brave I want to try the mainline tutorial.

Don't wait, do it now. It's just a good structured method of plant training and it's well explained and you have nothing to lose by trying it.

Take care mate

 

[CloudyAmberDay]

But are you getting the same growth out of them? Or does waiting to 6 nodes before chopping them not take a week back off your veg time? This would be a good experiment. If you check out my journal all plants were topped ub's method. I wish the pics would load on the other page.

To be honest with you, after chopping I let the foliage catch back up with the root mass. The foliage with only be as big as the roots and vice versa, unison. My cut went from 4" measured -l--P--l-to over a foot in width (4 mains) bushed out. so in 10 days from cut it grew around 3-4x the size. I will attach the pics...

I have not grown reg seeds in a while but I thought about that. Waiting for sex then topping and cloning...
When you say you get a bunch of clones from the 8 node plants, where are you taking these from? When I cut between the 2nd and 3rd node - I use the top (almost always roots 100%) and the lateral branches from the main. Clean them up of course. Throw them in the aeroponic cloner and wait a week.

Do you know that any side shoot at any point in the plant's life will make a clone? Given that it is adequate in growth/length, yes.

Don't wait, do it now. It's just a good structured method of plant training and it's well explained and you have nothing to lose by trying it. I will soon, I want to finish my first go at coco and will try "new" things.

Take care mate

Take care as well, thanks for the educated discussion. Always can learn something new Chopsticks! nice.

 

[Weeded1s]

Someone direct him back to soil. The only reason I even respond to him is im afraid some noob will come along and actually do what this guy posts about..not DOES successfully himself. I believe google took your job efforts along time. We are looking for personal xperience not what some guy posed from 1500 bc has in it. We all actually know how to use the search function here. Ill go ahead n say it : this isnt your first forum and undoubtly wont be your last. Strawberries dawg...strawberries.

 

[CloudyAmberDay]

Hey papaduc here's some pics for you

My first time trying strawberry sour diesel - devils harvest

Grew for 19 days, topped, 10 days later (day 29), 6 days later (5 weeks)

also here is a trunk of one I topped for 8 mains, cotton candy by delicious seeds - 5 weeks old as well

the16days2 picture is the cotton candy with 8 mains

16days3 is the SSD

 

[CloudyAmberDay]

here is the cotton candy cut for 6-8 mains, I can't see the pic too good, it might be purple paralysis cut for 6 mains. have to find the pics but I'm doing an experiment. One with 4 mains, one with 6 mains, one with 8 mains. all topped the same day. See what they end up like

 

[CloudyAmberDay]

There are loads of techniques for training.. Natural growth on a plant is ok if u want a dominant bud if u want 50 dominant same size buds then training for a level canopy is key.. My first uncles Ben style plant hit 10z from a hand fed coco 15ltr pot .. I work in a hydro shop I no what a lot of people do with there and not being funny but they ain pullin 10s mate so u can't deny it that the ub method and topping at xertain nodes isn't good I get plants 3-4 food square ... People aSk how many in there ... I say 1 and they don't believe me haha buffoon

wow, that's awesome.

I believe it. Uncle ben's method is awesome if you like it. Nice yields!