True stabilized strains. A lost art?

[Sam_Skunkman]

x

As a breeder I will share my view on this topic. There are a few reasons making True Stabilized.. (True Breeding) Lines isnt practiced so much today, as in the past.

Never was for Cannabis.

The general market for genetics has been shifted to "The Grass is Greener on the Other Side" so to speak... meaning people are constantly looking for then next unique plant which in turn usually pop up in unstable lines and people feel lucky when they find them. This is also why so many new crosses are made ( pollen chucking ) with the most up to date Elite unique plant on the market hoping for an even better offspring. So stability isnt really on the minds of people as much as it used to be. Mostly because these unique plants dont need to be stable as Cloning and sharing cuts has become a lot more common with laws changing around the world.

Stability is much more of a concern when dealing with seed production... It still holds true.. who wants to grow out a pack of seeds and not get a single plant that represents the description of a strain the breeder has given.. it happens a lot these days and Im still baffled why people continue to purchase such seed as they are taking such a large gamble on actually getting what they paid for. Just another move in the mentality of the market and whats acceptable these days.

I would like to test your varieties for stability and true breeding, both by growing and sending them to a cytology lab that can test the homozygosity vs heterozygous, all cannabis is heterozygous.
I did test my Skunk #1 and was told it was the most homozygous Cannabis variety ever tested much more then any of the registered Hemp varieties that were tested, they tested maybe 100 different ones. I did not try and make it true breeding through breeding over and over, I grew out about 30 NLC X WLD varieties I made or was given and pollinated them to only themselves, then I grew out the F1 and made f2s and grew them out and picked the one that segregated the least, that was Skunk #1, I only made and sold true breeding varieties, until I moved to the Netherlands and got tired of all the knock offs. So I switched over to mostly hybrids.
The bottom line is it is not so easy to pick two varieties, make a hybrid and then stabilize it into a true breeding variety, I am not sure I have ever seen any. Skunk #1 is close but I did it by selection not by force of will, why not go with the flow?
-SamS

Another issue of why breeders dont make true breeding strains is the fact that they are SOOO easy to rip off by other seed producers and be sold as their own work. Blatantly taking all the hard work that the original breeder put in and reaping the rewards for themselves... this was a big issue for a long time and people began to frown upon people for doing so ( HACKS! ). So in response most larger breeders just started releasing F1s and keeping all True Stabilized Breeding stock for themselves.. this helps protect the work they have put in as no one can really recreate the exact same F1 offspring even if they use the same True Breeding Parent strains as they will be making different selection of P1 plants for the F1 offspring. Another method for protecting True Breeding strains has been releasing them only in FEM seed lines.. generally eliminating all males from the population to keep others from reproducing seeds.

( Why does it take so many plants? if you grow out a group of seeds and find plants with matching traits breed them and the traits breed true.. why do you need 100s of plants to choose from if you find what you are looking for in a smaller group? Growing out hundreds of plants of the same line is really only needed when trying to lock down a recessive trait that is rare.. hense the reason needing so many plants to find it in both parents you choose to make the next generation. )

Do you really understand breeding Cannabis? Have you ever bred anything else besides Cannabis? The larger the number the better chances of success, and the bigger populations your selections can be made from. Cannabis needs it, it is a wind pollinated out crosser, you need to grow 2,000 plants to open pollinate just to ensure that the gene loss is prevented do you understand this? With Cannabis 2,000 plants will still lose upto 5% of their genes each year reproduced.

Mustafunk:
An average hemp strain takes 7-10 years of breeding in average

( This statement just isnt true. Unless you are only growing outside being forced to produce 1 generation each yr. Indoors many generations can be produced in a single yr.. I have bred and made stable True Breeding lines in far less time then 7-10 yrs... that number only applies to single generation production each year. )

Were they hemp? What variety did you make? Yes hemp takes 7-10 years to bred well. you are not breeding hemp, I doubt you are in fact breeding at all, just pollen chucking, be honest. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I will admit I have not grown your seeds, maybe I should before I speak, but no one is doing it right with Cannabis so I will just speak out not aimed really at you but at the whole industry.

They were not hemp and all hemp is bred out doors, except for one I know of, FINOLA, I developed it in my greenhouse, but I did use thousand of plants, every time I grew it.
-SamS

(well I like to think it takes a little bit of skill to make a successful "pollen chuck" sometimes the offspring are not a winner.. Ive made crosses of plants that where amazing by themselves but when put together turned out bad, yes this is even true for making F1s with True Breeding P1 stock.. sometimes the cross is worse then both the parents... Just like 2 beautiful people sometimes have ugly babies LOL things dont always go well together.)


Anyway thats my view on the market and what has changed over the yrs.

SGS

 

[Cabinet Ninja]

I personally think that there is a time and a place for true breeding strains.

If you're looking to make your own seeds or crosses, then it really does help to start with at least 1 tried and true parent. That way you'll at least have some idea of what the seeds might hold.
Same goes if you're looking for a certain strain representation within a pack of seeds.

However, many are happy to buy a pack of seeds and see what phenos pop up and cline the best.

Both have their place in the market, it would be nicer if it was a little more 50/50 than the current trend.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

So fix the problem, breed true breeding stabilized varieties to sell to the people that want them, years of work, for all the folks to pick up and run with. Do you really wonder why most seed sellers prefer to spent their time and space to make as many hybrids regardless of stability or breeding true, to sell to people that want just to pick out a clone? Clone pickers often prefer the diversity in a seed pack so they have more choices?
Anyway the solution is easy, more people need to make true breeding varieties, I suggest you start as soon as you can, you are the solution!
-SamS

I personally think that there is a time and a place for true breeding strains.

If you're looking to make your own seeds or crosses, then it really does help to start with at least 1 tried and true parent. That way you'll at least have some idea of what the seeds might hold.
Same goes if you're looking for a certain strain representation within a pack of seeds.

However, many are happy to buy a pack of seeds and see what phenos pop up and cline the best.

Both have their place in the market, it would be nicer if it was a little more 50/50 than the current trend.

 

[moses wellfleet]

Sam what are your views on self pollination as a breeding tool?

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I used it a lot, and they all got inbred with a decrease of vigor, that can be restored, if done correctly.
-SamS

 

[moses wellfleet]

Restore the vigor by outcrossing again?

 

[oldchuck]

I'm not too worried about stability. I think the genetic diversity of Cannabis is a great benefit both to the species and for us humans.

 

[Mr. Organic]

only breeders want stable traits as stable usually means loss of yield and hard to grow.

Most growers want that hybrid vigor.

 

[moses wellfleet]

I wasn't expecting to get that info for free...

 

[MDfinest]

Restore the vigor by outcrossing again?

Just my two cents, I think outcrossing in that situation would be counter productive. Maybe if it was to another closely related line.

I think in that and many other cases simple selection really is your best friend.

 

[Mustafunk]

As a breeder I will share my view on this topic. This statement just isnt true. Unless you are only growing outside being forced to produce 1 generation each yr. Indoors many generations can be produced in a single yr.. I have bred and made stable True Breeding lines in far less time then 7-10 yrs...

So which are those breeding works or which breeding methods have you used with those? I find funny how nowadays everyone calls himself a breeder and sells seeds, I personally find it totally unnecessary and counter-productive for the already saturated cannabis scene. Getting an elite-clone and backcrossing it to itself for another strain 5 times doesn't count. Cubing, selfing or backcrossing aren't even proper breeding methods either to develop a new plant variety, but misused techniques spread over the community and used by amateur breeders to cheat and have the false impression they are stabilizing a strain (https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4542008&postcount=2). Do you really think it's possible to make a brand new true breeding hybrid from your own landrace stock in less than 7 years?

Successful breeding requires great skill and knowledge. In addition, large-scale breeding calls for significant investment in land, specialized equipment (for example, greenhouses, growth chambers and laboratories), and skilled, scientific manpower.

It takes a long time to develop a successful plant variety (10 to 15 years in the case of many plant species). Yet not all new plant varieties are successful and, even where the varieties show significant improvements, changes in market requirements may eliminate the possibility of a return on investment. This makes it necessary to balance the benefits with the return of the original high investment. Generally, however, plant breeding results in the availability of varieties with increased output and improved quality for the benefit of the society.

Sustained and long-term breeding efforts are only worthwhile if there is a chance to be rewarded for the investment made. To recover the costs of this research and development, the breeder may seek protection to obtain exclusive rights for the new variety.

At the same time, a new variety, once released, can often be easily reproduced by others. The original breeder is thus deprived of the fair opportunity to benefit from his or her investment. It is, therefore, critical to provide an effective system of plant variety protection, which encourages the development of new varieties of plants thereby benefiting the breeder and society at large.

If that's what it takes to professional plant breeders with the proper education and experience to breed varieties, how can all the cannabis wannabe-breeders release half a dozen strains per year? Damn it's totally ridiculous, either they are cheating or something is going on there lol. Even if you breed indoors and have big resources to do so, you won't be able to cut down the time that much if you do things properly and you work with hundreds of plants to select parents, plus other few hundreds of seeds to test each parent's progeny and back again. The rest is just pollen chucking and wannabeism unless you do it for yourself and your friends as a hobby, like many of us growers do indeed. I don't need to be a breeder to know this is the way to do it properly although not everyone seems to be conscious about this and the fact they are being ripped off by most companies.

If you have a health issue you should go to a professional experienced doctor, right? I like cooking at home but I don't see myself opening a restaurant or food chain because simply I don't have the experience or qualifications to do so. So why are we purchasing seeds from amateur breeders or bulk sellers that only sell mediocre strains that anybody could be doing at home by themselves for free?

The International Union for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants or UPOV, stablished a series of criteria that every new variety must meet:

• The new plant must be novel, which means that it must not have been previously marketed in the country where rights are applied for.
• The new plant must be distinct from other available varieties.
• The plants must display homogeneity.
• The trait or traits unique to the new variety must be stable so that the plant remains true to type after repeated cycles of propagation.

Of course the situation of Cannabis is a bit different nowadays, but why growers don't demand that too from breeders and simply reject the rest or the companies that don't meet those? It's the only way to make things change. I just hope that cannabis strains could be registered and regulated soon too, so all this situation with seed companies will end.

For me it's pretty simple, any strain must:

1. - Have mature, healthy, pest/fungus-free, homogeneus sized, viable and vigorous seeds.
2. - Be genetically different to any other available strain or have its own character or special traits and characteristics that may differenciate it from any other existing strain.
3. - Be homogeneous and meet expectations in germination, vigour, maturation time, minimum terpenoid/cannabinoid contents, performance for the enviroment it was bred, meet the minimums of quality of effect and of course meet the breeder's description (thus, grower's expectatives too when he grows the strain).

What breeders really need is to do is to be professional, more humble, stop lying and thinking we are ignorants and provide/meet the quality standards like it's done with any other plant variety outside of this cannabis world.

You are right, of course most of the times new strains are crossed without any serious objectives, it's just about picking a trendy strain and making all the possible combinations without any sense, then growers will test and provide feedback and even pictures for free lol. Most of the times, no one would even stop and think if they provide anything new/better than the separate strains used as parents or if we really need such strain, especially in the case of elite clones but well, that's how the scene is nowadays.

Now cross GSC with GG#4, cool... looks nice, lots of hype, potent and so on, but even if something good comes out from those seeds, is it really going to offer anything new to the scene? is it going to make a revolution? Let's be honest folks, it's just another version of the same thing, nothing new at all, same range of terpenes, same kind of effect... just new name but same genetics. Plus we are still keeping on fucking the cannabis genetic diversity as we keep using all those intersex bagseed genes as breeding stock instead of focusimg on bringing brand new genes to the scene. But I guess working with landraces and do proper breeding takes too much effort and time for those just looking for easy money and props.

The main problem is that most growers aren't even conscious about this and have a really low standards, the average grower don't even use forums to get information so they are easy preys for this companies and all the marketing around them. But we have tools and information available to be more critique and demand a quality product from companies, otherwise just don't support them and soon all the pollen-chuckers and dodgy breeders will dissapear because they won't sell anything. After all, why are all this amateurs even breeding commercially and selling seeds? We should serioulsy stop favouring and encouraging this situation, otherwise, how we can complain later about breeders and the strains nowadays?

only breeders want stable traits as stable usually means loss of yield and hard to grow. Most growers want that hybrid vigor.

Well I want stable traits too and I'm no breeder, I just want to grow a seed and get the plant and quality that I'm expecting, you need stability for that. Growers want hybrid vigor? That's another myth... heterosis is not a rule of thumb, sometimes the hybrid vigor happens, sometimes not, it's not that simple. Not always the offspring is better than the parent plants. This is especially true when we speak about very non-related genes. But if we work with poly-hybrids that already share most of their genetics this would make no sense. Outbreeding depression can even appear, just like inbreeding depression. So once again, if you think crossing GSC with GG#4 will result in super vigorous and amazing offspring, it won't really work like that. Cross pure thai landrace with afghan like it was done in the past, and that's another different thing then. You'll got the vigour and also the homogeneity we are looking for.

Anyway, I'm no genetic expert but I think anybody can realize about this. Maybe the problem is that growers already got used to grow shitty and unpredictable genetics and plant 100 seeds in order to find maybe one elite keeper? But that's the problem about the amateur breeding in cannabis nowadays.

Vibes.

 

[bombadil.360]

Hello Sam,

let me pick your brain for a second:

I'd like to think that if one were to find parental lines to make a true F1, it would be sufficient using one single P1 and one single P2, provided that the resulting F1 will be used purely for seedless/sinsemilla production.

you can expect pretty uniform plants in that F1 generation, since only one female parent and one male parent were used, however, due to the minimum possible amount of parents used to make the F1, then the F1 is not suitable to breed with any further.

so lets say you have two outstanding parent lines, lets say one female from Nepal and one male from Thailand, and the offspring was worthy (if the parents are, most likely the offspring will too, and vigorous). and you can keep these two parent plants as 'mother plants', you could put out some consistent and quality F1 to be used for a one time seedless crop.

my guess is that if someone were to do that, and lets say, would sell a 50 seeds pack for 25 USD, people will buy it... 25 USD for 50 consistent quality F1 seeds each time you want to do a run, is a good option for many who don't want to deal with making their own seeds and worrying about out-crossing and selecting and having constantly seeded bud... shit, I doubt I've seen seedless bud in my gardens for years...

peace

 

[MDfinest]

Can't hybrid vigor of f1's mask outbreeding depression, that would show up stronger in later generations?

 

[Only Ornamental]

...
If you have a health issue you should go to a professional experienced doctor, right? I like cooking at home but I don't see myself opening a restaurant or food chain because simply I don't have the experience or qualifications to do so. So why are we purchasing seeds from amateur breeders or bulk sellers that only sell mediocre strains that anybody could be doing at home by themselves for free?
...

Right, you should. But then again, there's that thing called remote diagnosis via internet, mainly on FB...
I love to cook either! So, why don't we open a restaurant? Simple, we're honest people who lack the balls and have qualms, that's why.
This whole scene reminds me a lot of the cosmetics industry. What people buy isn't everlasting youth and immortality like the commercials imply but just hopes and dreams. They even use the expression 'pixie dust' or 'claim ingredients': This is stuff only added in minute amounts so that they can advertise it on the package and boost sales! Same goes for 'green' cosmetics which is usually 'greenwashed' or contains a few 'green' (from renewable sources) ingredients but are by no means organic or truly eco-friendly like they make the customers believe.
But then again, the customers often even know it! But euhhh... dunno... I don't understand those folks...
On the other hand, there's a lot out there where you and me and many others would be better suited for the job but we still don't do it for different reasons. Who's to blame now for buying shitty products; the customer, the self-confident entrepreneur, or the one who should produce but doesn't?

...
you can expect pretty uniform plants in that F1 generation, since only one female parent and one male parent were used, however, due to the minimum possible amount of parents used to make the F1, then the F1 is not suitable to breed with any further.
....
my guess is that if someone were to do that, and lets say, would sell a 50 seeds pack for 25 USD, people will buy it...

No, you can't unless the parent lines were already very uniform.
The usefulness of the F1 depends on the genes, not the theory. You're right, the less parents, the worse for breeding.
From what I've seen (and I haven't seen that much, others will be more helpful here), using a few parents is EXACTLY what many breeders do to increase homogeneity of their seeds and keep costs and space low.
But you don't sell those seeds for 50 cents a piece but for $5-20! In other words, these are just the seeds you usually buy. There might be several parents involved but this might be due to necessity if they have to produce more seeds at once. I've read advertisements wherein they brag about using 2 or 3! males and 1 female (or vice versa) for the seeds. Woohoo, ain't that cool! Seriously, I couldn't advertise something like that... silly me, there goes my sideline...

 

[MDfinest]

But, back on topic, given that genetic diversity and adaptation is part of any species survival... I don't think any strain is 100% stable.

 

[Only Ornamental]

You're nearly right . But first, a cannabis 'strain' isn't used for breeding but vegetative propagation at best (it's a single plant and it's cuttings). Else, it's called variety or cultivar, though those terms aren't usually appropriate either (there's no term for a pollen chucking experiment). A true strain does usually only exist in microbes and a very few really true breeding lab animals aka inbred lines and certain cultured plants; those are as homozygous as it biologically gets (commonly over 99%).
True, those lab animals (not the microbes, only the animals) are highly susceptible to everything and usually can't survive outside a very clean environment. They also suffer from a series of malfunctions and defects, show abnormalities, atypical behaviour, high mortality, short lifespan, small litter size etc. They are VERY stable (true, there's never a 100% in biology, but close enough) but that comes at a huge cost and survival without human help is impossible! This also applies to outbreeding plants (obviously less to inbreeding ones).
The 'IBLs' you see in advertisements of the cannabis industry are usually a very long way from the definition of an IBL . These are maybe what would deserve the term 'cultivar' in other plant species.

 

[windycitysmoker]

Nirvana Master Kush is NL x Skunk#1

Because the NL and SK#1 are both stable strains, it makes for a pretty stable F1. F2's would produce some variation.

There's no "Kush" in it, but it's a potent, easy strain to grow with good yields.

Thank u for the info Very helpful

 

[Charles-scott]

Restore the vigor by outcrossing again?

Hey friend maybe have a look at this thread
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=307644&page=19#post7025875

 

[G.O. Joe]

Now cross GSC with GG#4, cool... looks nice, lots of hype, potent and so on, but even if something good comes out from those seeds, is it really going to offer anything new to the scene?

WHERE CAN I GET THIS???!!!

On SB? It's as close to clones as a hick in the sticks who can't get clones can get! How much do I have to pay to tragically fubar cannabis genetics by chucking pollen with that?

 

[SGS]

I obviously wasnt as clear as needed to be as MustaFunk and Sam picked apart my post with a fine tooth comb.. My comments are mine alone and my personal view of what the market is like and how i look at breeding. Take it for what it is.. if you view them right or wrong.

To clarify:
My view of a True Breeding Stable strain is any strain that has been bred to successfully lock down traits within the population. And those traits will breed true with each generation.




SGS

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Originally Posted by SGS
As a breeder I will share my view on this topic. There are a few reasons making True Stabilized.. (True Breeding) Lines isnt practiced so much today, as in the past.

Never was for Cannabis.

I disagree for the single reason that it was a lot easier to find strains that where bred that had much more traits locked down and true breeding then it is today. Sam you know the mentally was much more favorable for growers to get uniform plants from the seed stock they were buying years ago...in turn many breeders accommodated...

Finding plants that accurately fit the description from the breeder today is much less likely then it used to be. Why would a breeder require you to plant more then a single pack to get what they said you would be getting in a pack? If this is the case then the amount of seeds sold in each pack should be increased just to accomedate for the variation the consumer will get to ensure they get at least 1 plant that accurately matches the breeders description. Unless stated by the breeder to expect high variation.


The general market for genetics has been shifted to "The Grass is Greener on the Other Side" so to speak... meaning people are constantly looking for then next unique plant which in turn usually pop up in unstable lines and people feel lucky when they find them. This is also why so many new crosses are made ( pollen chucking ) with the most up to date Elite unique plant on the market hoping for an even better offspring. So stability isnt really on the minds of people as much as it used to be. Mostly because these unique plants dont need to be stable as Cloning and sharing cuts has become a lot more common with laws changing around the world.

Stability is much more of a concern when dealing with seed production... It still holds true.. who wants to grow out a pack of seeds and not get a single plant that represents the description of a strain the breeder has given.. it happens a lot these days and Im still baffled why people continue to purchase such seed as they are taking such a large gamble on actually getting what they paid for. Just another move in the mentality of the market and whats acceptable these days.

I would like to test your varieties for stability and true breeding, both by growing and sending them to a cytology lab that can test the homozygosity vs heterozygous, all cannabis is heterozygous.
I did test my Skunk #1 and was told it was the most homozygous Cannabis variety ever tested much more then any of the registered Hemp varieties that were tested, they tested maybe 100 different ones. I did not try and make it true breeding through breeding over and over, I grew out about 30 NLC X WLD varieties I made or was given and pollinated them to only themselves, then I grew out the F1 and made f2s and grew them out and picked the one that segregated the least, that was Skunk #1, I only made and sold true breeding varieties, until I moved to the Netherlands and got tired of all the knock offs. So I switched over to mostly hybrids.
The bottom line is it is not so easy to pick two varieties, make a hybrid and then stabilize it into a true breeding variety, I am not sure I have ever seen any. Skunk #1 is close but I did it by selection not by force of will, why not go with the flow?
-SamS

yes i would be happy to have you run some of them and do your own testing but in turn just like you said.. you got sick of the knock offs.. Below In my original post I mentioned the same thing about people taking true breeding lines and claiming the work for themselves. The reason why breeders started to make hybrids only to protect their work...just like yourself.. so why would i send you my true breeding lines? and take the risk of them being out there?

Another issue of why breeders dont make true breeding strains is the fact that they are SOOO easy to rip off by other seed producers and be sold as their own work. Blatantly taking all the hard work that the original breeder put in and reaping the rewards for themselves... this was a big issue for a long time and people began to frown upon people for doing so ( HACKS!

). So in response most larger breeders just started releasing F1s and keeping all True Stabilized Breeding stock for themselves.. this helps protect the work they have put in as no one can really recreate the exact same F1 offspring even if they use the same True Breeding Parent strains as they will be making different selection of P1 plants for the F1 offspring. Another method for protecting True Breeding strains has been releasing them only in FEM seed lines.. generally eliminating all males from the population to keep others from reproducing seeds.

( Why does it take so many plants? if you grow out a group of seeds and find plants with matching traits breed them and the traits breed true.. why do you need 100s of plants to choose from if you find what you are looking for in a smaller group? Growing out hundreds of plants of the same line is really only needed when trying to lock down a recessive trait that is rare.. hense the reason needing so many plants to find it in both parents you choose to make the next generation. )

Do you really understand breeding Cannabis? Have you ever bred anything else besides Cannabis? The larger the number the better chances of success, and the bigger populations your selections can be made from. Cannabis needs it, it is a wind pollinated out crosser, you need to grow 2,000 plants to open pollinate just to ensure that the gene loss is prevented do you understand this? With Cannabis 2,000 plants will still lose upto 5% of their genes each year reproduced.

Ummm I think so? then again i could be wrong... like i said these i my views i dont claim to be an expert.. I did claim i was a breeder as I do breed cannabis. I do open pollination within the population of selected plants showing the traits i want to lock down ,, if the group is 25 plants or 100 it will still give me a large enough gene pool to pick from for the next generation to find the trait again and continue to work to lock it down and make it true breeding for that trait or multiple traits if I can at the same time. Of course a larger population would give me a better chance to find a plant for better selection but if i can find something im happy with then why is it needed?? also backcrossing can be used but only to reinforce a trait i want locked down but it cant be used to stabilize. but this option isnt required.. and i like to keep things more natural when making a stable line for the traits im trying to lock down. [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] just like mother nature[/FONT] but in isolated selective groups.

Im curious where you got those numbers from sorry if i dont know... about the amount of plants needed and loose 5% of genes... [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]so please explain ,, what would happen to a line of cannabis that was able to grow naturally on its own without human help.. but it was isolated with small numbers ...[/FONT]an isolated population of cannabis plants would inbreed and inbreed ..what would happen to them over the years? would they become more stable to the point of extremely homozygous or would they remain heterozygous? if they remain heterozygous .. where do stable true breeding Landrace strains with very little variation come from?

Mustafunk:
An average hemp strain takes 7-10 years of breeding in average

( This statement just isnt true. Unless you are only growing outside being forced to produce 1 generation each yr. Indoors many generations can be produced in a single yr.. I have bred and made stable True Breeding lines in far less time then 7-10 yrs... that number only applies to single generation production each year. )

Were they hemp? What variety did you make? Yes hemp takes 7-10 years to bred well. you are not breeding hemp, I doubt you are in fact breeding at all, just pollen chucking, be honest. I could be wrong, but I doubt it. I will admit I have not grown your seeds, maybe I should before I speak, but no one is doing it right with Cannabis so I will just speak out not aimed really at you but at the whole industry.


[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Actually those first few statements were directly aimed at me.. you doubt me.. you accuse me.. and ask me to fess up. Which were all aimed at my credibility to smear it... Then try to down play it with an admit of not growing my seeds. not very nice if you ask me... Anyway, I [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]admit i mistook when he said HEMP . and it being bred outdoors... I got a bit lost on that.. I meant Cannabis being grown indoors ... can be bred faster due to the multiple generations that can be produced each yr. [/FONT]

They were not hemp and all hemp is bred out doors, except for one I know of, FINOLA, I developed it in my greenhouse, but I did use thousand of plants, every time I grew it.


-SamS

(well I like to think it takes a little bit of skill to make a successful "pollen chuck" sometimes the offspring are not a winner.. Ive made crosses of plants that where amazing by themselves but when put together turned out bad, yes this is even true for making F1s with True Breeding P1 stock.. sometimes the cross is worse then both the parents... Just like 2 beautiful people sometimes have ugly babies LOL things dont always go well together.)


Anyway thats my view on the market and what has changed over the yrs.

SGS
[/FONT]

So which are those breeding works or which breeding methods have you used with those?

I breed with selected groups of plants of the same line that show the same traits i want to lock down. Pretty much the same way SAM made SKUNK#1.. but possibly with smaller plant numbers.... yes there is some minor variation within the population cause not all traits have been locked down. these traits are minor. ( Not like Strains that produce 3-4 completely different phenotypes per 10 seeds which are NOTHING alike.. and to anyone that looked upon them and didnt know what strain it was would think they were not even the same strain, how is this acceptable from a consumer stand point... when you are getting so much variation you dont get what you paid for when choosing the seeds you purchased based on the Breeders discription?) Anyway these minor variations is what i consider acceptable variation within the line.. and could be bred out if needed.. as long as all the other traits that were locked down continue to breed true for generations I consider this a True Breeding line which would match the description I would give it.

I find funny how nowadays everyone calls himself a breeder and sells seeds, I personally find it totally unnecessary and counter-productive for the already saturated cannabis scene.

Ive been breeding cannabis for myself long before the cannabis scene was saturated with all the new breeders of today.. I have bred cannabis for a long time and thus the reason I call myself a breeder as I have been successful.


Getting an elite-clone and backcrossing it to itself for another strain 5 times doesn't count. Cubing, selfing or backcrossing aren't even proper breeding methods either to develop a new plant variety, but misused techniques spread over the community and used by amateur breeders to cheat and have the false impression they are stabilizing a strain (https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=4542008&postcount=2). Do you really think it's possible to make a brand new true breeding hybrid from your own landrace stock in less than 7 years?

Just as i said before I base my time line on indoor breeding.. which is much faster as you can produce multiple generations each yr.

SGS