Treated waterfarm 8 pack hydro with Imidacloprid, 2/8 plants now drooping-almost dead

[Bud Bundy]

Ok, I have gone through my posts where I mention Bayer Complete Insect Killer and have appended this to them all, because of your experience :

Note: applying imid products does seem to shock plant to some extent; if they are healthy they get over it right away, where most people report a positive change in appearance (new growth etc) the very next day. If plants are unhealthy, imid treatment can stress them and cause them to stall (sometimes even induces outbreaks of pathogens, like fungal leaf issues). The most important thing is to be careful with imid in recirculating hydro systems; far less imid is necessary when there will be such repeated contact with roots (5-20 mL C.I.K or 2.5-10 mL T&S). It is also important to run the pesticides for only a short period of time (2-4 hrs should be plenty!) and then change out the res and run the system again. I would personally base the length of time and concentration on how "exposed" the roots will be to the pesticide; DWC/hydrofarm systems probably only need ~30 min exposure with very low doses (since roots will be continually soaked in the solution). NFT and aero type systems could probably use slightly higher doses and exposure time, and top-feed or ebb/flow probably a bit more/longer still (perhaps 2-4 waterings for such container-hydro or rockwool slab/Hugo cube systems). Using higher levels of pesticides than the system calls for or letting pesticides stay around too long can be a recipe for disaster, as plants do not like to be continually exposed to the imid products (even at low levels) for very long.

Thank you, Bud, for helping to guide the state of the field disseminating important information to the community! You are an asset here.

-WB

Thanks Spleebale for all of your helpful advice.

Funny thing is, I also watered my soil plants with Bayer T&S 5 ml/gal and 2 of the leftover clones I had in rockwool cubes with the 5 ml T&S /gal RO water, and only did that once and those plants seem like they're doing just fine...

When I went to the hydro store to pick up some supplies, I discussed my conundrum with one of the workers there, and he sounded a bit surprised at the effects Bayer T&S had on my system; he conjectured that it was the reaction with the nutes and running it for a long time that was the problem (he said I should have ran it by itself). The employee said that he treats cuttings he gets with Bayer T&S at 1 ml/gal by watering the rockwool cubes once to inoculate new cuttings.

He recommended that on new clones I pick up that I skip adding it to my res, and just initially soak the clone's rockwool cube with Bayer T&S @ 1 ml/gal for preventative measures as a one time treatment.

I just picked up some new clones, Chemdawg, Chemdawg 91, OG Bubba, & Purple Kush...but am very nervous about applying any Imid at all to them.

Spleebale, do you think that it would be safe (and / or advisable) given my current situation to apply a low dose of Imid to the clones once before I plant them? (1 ml/gal Bayer T&S is what I'll do if anything, cuz I'm paranoid right now about destroying this crop)

I have thoroughly inspected my new cuttings for bugs and have found none, but that does not mean that there might not be a pest egg in there somewhere.

Thanks for the help!

-Bud Bundy

 

[Bud Bundy]

Ok, I just inoculated my new clones with 1 ML/gal Bayer T&S, watered the rockwool cubes until saturation and runoff...this will be the only Bayer T&S I plan on applying.

According to what I've seen with my soil plants and the experiences other people have had, I think 1 ml/gal should be safe.

*Fingers Crossed*

 

[ItsGrowTime]

Ok, I just inoculated my new clones with 1 ML/gal Bayer T&S, watered the rockwool cubes until saturation and runoff...this will be the only Bayer T&S I plan on applying.

According to what I've seen with my soil plants and the experiences other people have had, I think 1 ml/gal should be safe.

*Fingers Crossed*

It may be safe but it's probably also ineffective at such a small dosage. Unfortunately we are learning this as we go along since most of these Imid solutions aren't designed (or at least indicated) for hydro usage.

 

[Bud Bundy]

It may be safe but it's probably also ineffective at such a small dosage. Unfortunately we are learning this as we go along since most of these Imid solutions aren't designed (or at least indicated) for hydro usage.

Better safe than sorry this round, IMO I don't think I'll get root aphids this go around, as I'm 95% sure I got an infected clone last time, and I have cleaned quite well.

The worker at my hydro shop told me that when they're young clones in a small rockwool cube, an application of just 1 ml/gal assuming they aren't already infected with bugs should be sufficient, he says it has worked to protect him from all of the bugs he comes into contact with working at a hydro store. I assume when they are that small, a small dosage like that being absorbed straight into all the roots would be enough. I watered each cube until runoff with Imid.

After losing a crop and having a stunted crop, I'm going to play it quite safe on this go around I'm not getting Imid anywhere near my res this go around.

I just hand watered all of my clones with 1 ml/gal Bayer, let it sit like 3-4 hours, and just flushed the clones again with regular RO water to runoff, and am now finishing planting in the waterfarm. So far, so good. I'll post pics soon when it's all up. I will keep my eye on the other plants that had Imid in the res for 4 days and see how they perform.

 

[Bud Bundy]

It's now the morning after hand watering my clones one time with 1 ml/gal bayer, then hours later flushing the rockwool cube with RO water.

After they have been planted and sitting in light for hours, they still look great and perky this morning!

So far, so good!

 

[spleebale]

Bud: I know your experience with imid has you spooked: don't be so worried. I am sure it was mostly just the recirculating/constant soaking for extended time that was the problem. I have soaked trays of clones in 30+ mL/gal Bayer C.I.K. and none have died (though it did seem to damage roots, particularly those protruding from the bottom of the cubes and soaking in the imid water remaining in the tray - this is the same experience - extended soaking in imid = no bueno).

As far as low-dose applications, up to 5 mL/gal Bayer/Green Light T&S will probably be fine for any sized plant (clones included) as long as they don't soak in the imid solution after application (though leaving the media damp with imid mix seems to be fine as long as the roots can breathe well). Again, I believe it is quite likely that it is the solvent causing most of these problems; I figure that people using Merit 75 etc will probably not see these sort of issues.

Also: if you flush with RO water you should water with nutrient water soon thereafter; RO water is unnatural (even though it is completely "clean" and "pure," it has NO salts of any sort dissolved in it, causing osmotic potential in the wrong direction). Plants do not want to sit in RO water! Watering soil or other medium with a decently high C.E.C. with RO water is generally not a problem, as new salts will quickly be released into the water to balance it a bit, but flushing any medium, particularly a hydroponic medium with little to no C.E.C. will create a stressful situation for the plant where its root have to fight to preserve the nutrients that they have already absorbed.

If you water with straight RO water, especially if you FLUSH with straight RO water, you need to replenish SOME salts SOON after (even if it is 1/10 strength nutrient concentration). Flushing with RO water and leaving plants to sit that way is NOT healthy for the plant.

Goodspeed, goodway.

-WB

 

[Lazyman]

Yeah it was the combination of high dose and WAY too long. Read bottles often enough, and many say "run high doses for a very short period, low doses for long periods." In hydro hours is a short period, days is a long period.

I also killed root aphids with 1-2 doses of 2ml/gallon SM-90 and 2ml/gallon 35% H202, worked a champ and no hazardous chems in the res.

 

[Bud Bundy]

Bud: I know your experience with imid has you spooked: don't be so worried. I am sure it was mostly just the recirculating/constant soaking for extended time that was the problem. I have soaked trays of clones in 30+ mL/gal Bayer C.I.K. and none have died (though it did seem to damage roots, particularly those protruding from the bottom of the cubes and soaking in the imid water remaining in the tray - this is the same experience - extended soaking in imid = no bueno).

As far as low-dose applications, up to 5 mL/gal Bayer/Green Light T&S will probably be fine for any sized plant (clones included) as long as they don't soak in the imid solution after application (though leaving the media damp with imid mix seems to be fine as long as the roots can breathe well). Again, I believe it is quite likely that it is the solvent causing most of these problems; I figure that people using Merit 75 etc will probably not see these sort of issues.

Also: if you flush with RO water you should water with nutrient water soon thereafter; RO water is unnatural (even though it is completely "clean" and "pure," it has NO salts of any sort dissolved in it, causing osmotic potential in the wrong direction). Plants do not want to sit in RO water! Watering soil or other medium with a decently high C.E.C. with RO water is generally not a problem, as new salts will quickly be released into the water to balance it a bit, but flushing any medium, particularly a hydroponic medium with little to no C.E.C. will create a stressful situation for the plant where its root have to fight to preserve the nutrients that they have already absorbed.

If you water with straight RO water, especially if you FLUSH with straight RO water, you need to replenish SOME salts SOON after (even if it is 1/10 strength nutrient concentration). Flushing with RO water and leaving plants to sit that way is NOT healthy for the plant.

Goodspeed, goodway.

-WB

Thanks spleebale,

I think you are right, the recirculating plus the length of time is what screwed them up. The clones I handwatered with one ml bayer per gal look fine, as well as the soil plants I watered twice with five ml bayer tree and shrub per gal.

I have transplanted some of the healthier plants after the four days recirculating in imid - it seems three have recovered quite well, and three remained somewhat droopy.

I will keep your advice for RO flushing in mind. After I hand watered the clones with bayer t and s, I hand watered with RO water probably three or four times over a perhaps 12 hour period before i hand watered with a clonex nute solution for a day until they got their hydro feed.

You ever figure out how to make a signature? =P

Thanks,

Bud Bundy

 

[spleebale]

Glad it seems you got a handle on things now. Don't worry about 5-10 mL Bayer T&S in any system; so many people have done it, it should be fine as long as you don't KEEP exposing them to it.

I have not figured out the sig yet, but I am almost at 100, so I will let you know!

;-)

-WB

 

[spleebale]

99 in fact ;-)

 

[Norkali]

Norkali: I am happy to hear you had an effective solution that did not involve imid. I (like so many others on my thread) had a TERRIBLE infestation on mature (just pre-flowering) plants in multiple systems. I had 8 different sets of plants (areas/regimens) each growing concurrently in different stages of life, ALL infected.
...

Soooooo..... I know we all like to think we know what is going on, but I think you have jumped to conclusions with your claim. Where is your evidence? Is it this ONE grow of stressed plants in DWC where the airstone was turned off for 22 hours straight??? - ANY other support for your claim? My ladies beg to differ!

-WB

First, I'm glad we can talk about this without any mud-slinging like so many other threads online...

Second, the only 'proof' that I have to support my claim is that my hydro guy talked to true professionals, people working at a reputed Ag. University (ryhmes w/ Shmavis - lol) who made quite a face when they were told "we" (us growers) were using Imid on our plants. Apparently Imidacloprid WILL NOT transfer systemically into fruits and veggies, but WILL into flowers. Hence, it WILL get into your buds if you use it. He was stressing that the Imid is just NOT safe to use, at any time, you run a risk of getting some into buds - and who really knows how long this shit can stay in a plant? The way my dude made it sound, it seems like you will almost always have trace amounts, especially when considering the life cycle time of most cannabis plants...

 

[craigho1]

I wouldnt be treating young clones with anything if st all possible. Keep everything clean. Use pantry moth traps, make sure your tent or room is not infested. However, those little flies and beetles find their way through screens and holes in seams, etc and eventually will infect your plant. I wait until the plants are well established before attempting to use imidacloprid or any other insecticide, as long as they are healthy to begin with. A little thumb and forefinger smash on the little bubbles and tunnels in the leaves. If airstones make your solution turn into a bubble bath, you are using the wrong product or too much of it. I run a tablespoon of imidacloprid through my homemade drip system when they are tweens directly in my pump tank that is joined with all the others at the bottom by hoses. I run it with Strive's 2 part nutes at full dose and run the drip and spray aeroponics for two weeks. No plant damage. No new bugs. You may have mentioned, but how is your ph? Are you jacking it up with acid because it keeps climbing? Maybe you have algae growing inside the walls of your buckets? Does light get through them? If light gets through the walls of the buckets, cover them up. Insulation is a good thing anyway. Unstable, high ph levels are a symptom of algae growth. But if you're dumping ph down, don't. Flush it out, clean everything and start fresh

 

[Creeperpark]

Wilting plants show me there is root damage. Hopefully, you can work this out. It looks like you are growing by making mistakes. Thank you for sharing because you are helping others too.

 

[Ca++]

This was posted in 2010.
This is now a banned chemical in a lot of countries. It was effecting the bee's

 

[Creeperpark]

This was posted in 2010.
This is now a banned chemical in a lot of countries. It was effecting the bee's

Thanks, Ca ++ I didn't even notice the date.