top of the heap to third world status in one generation

[h.h.]

I beleive there's some serious quantum-leap logic employed to go from pointing out uncomfortable but real history, versus alleging, erroneously and antagonistically, that Putin is one's leader.

The obvious short-fall of logic in that causes it to appear to be a personal attack, not based in anything more than that. Personalities and devout nationalism.

Allowing nationalism to bury facts is a dangerous place to be for the nation, the self, and more..

We don’t have to do what putin says. Neither does Ukraine. It’s like if your neighbor came over and beat on you because you didn’t cut your grass. Don’t think about joining nato or even the cub scouts. That isn’t freedom. That’s domination.

 

[h.h.]

@Tudo thanks for sharing the article, funnily enough it coincides with another snippet of an article I read earlier today and related to gry's comment above. Article is from The Intercept. I recalled reading about Bruce Jackson a while back and I shall post the link in the article in the next post. I'd imagine you lot have either seen or read "Shadow World" by Andrew Feinstein, but if not I would highly recommend it.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Death Is Profitable​

Capitalism also means the proliferation of weapons with no purpose — not that they ever, really, have a purpose. One key reason the U.S. advocated the expansion of NATO was that it would open up new markets for American arms dealers. A little-known but significant figure named Bruce Jackson cofounded an NGO called the Committee to Expand NATO in 1996 — all the while serving as vice president for strategy and planning at Lockheed Martin. He was also co-chair of the finance committee for Bob Dole’s 1996 presidential campaign. Jackson was still at Lockheed in 2002, the year he became chairman of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq.


This had led to many merry Christmases, indeed. With dividends reinvested, Lockheed’s stock is up over 1,600 percent since the liberation of Iraq commenced on March 19, 2003, It’s up 25 percent just since Russia’s attack on Ukraine last February. Jackson currently owns a chateau and vineyard in the Bordeaux region of France.


Moreover, it’s a fervently held belief at the top of American society that they are doing good by doing well. George W. Bush once told Argentina’s president that “all of the economic growth of the United States has been encouraged by wars.” Way to say the quiet part out loud, again and again.


And it’s not just conventional arms that are profitable. Building nuclear weapons systems is also quite lucrative. With these kinds of financial incentives in place, it’s incredible that human civilization still exists.


But of course, we could go at any moment. The U.S. military is likely to secure $858 billion for its budget next year. At $150,000 apiece, this is enough to fire 57 million Hellfire missiles at Santa’s sleigh as he speeds in terror across the winter sky.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We’ve done some terrible shit, Yet it still doesn’t excuse putin.

 

[flylowgethigh]

People are fleeing the loser takers and flocking together. As my area is being taken over by liberal losers, I plan to also migrate. The country will be Balkanized in my lifetime IMO.

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

 

[audiohi]

People are fleeing the loser takers and flocking together. As my area is being taken over by liberal losers, I plan to also migrate. The country will be Balkanized in my lifetime IMO.

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

lol

just give up. it's over

 

[Gry]

People are fleeing the loser takers and flocking together. As my area is being taken over by liberal losers, I plan to also migrate. The country will be Balkanized in my lifetime IMO.

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

Hell, that was the point of Jan 6th and you cheered for it.

 

[audiohi]

Hell, that was the point of Jan 6th and you cheered for it.

all those liberals around... he couldn't find anyone to go with him.

he would have gone, though

 

[moose eater]

We don’t have to do what putin says. Neither does Ukraine. It’s like if your neighbor came over and beat on you because you didn’t cut your grass. Don’t think about joining nato or even the cub scouts. That isn’t freedom. That’s domination.

Considering past agreements in Europe re. NATO, I was pretty sure it was what 'we'd' said, as well.

 

[GOT_BUD?]

 

[moose eater]

---- Oops!

Chrome Books and aging fat finger syndrome...

 

[moose eater]

------
Oops!

Chrome Books and aging fat finger syndrome... again.

3rd time is the charm?

 

[moose eater]

People are fleeing the loser takers and flocking together. As my area is being taken over by liberal losers, I plan to also migrate. The country will be Balkanized in my lifetime IMO.

ZeroHedge

ZeroHedge - On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero

www.zerohedge.com

How is it the 'loser taker' states generate more capital and revenues than those good Red John Wayne-esque states?

That part, I'm puzzled by.

I live in a Red State where I haven't paid any State income tax since about 1980, if I recall correctly, yet we're third in the Nation for accepting Federal tax dollars, apparently well beyond what our ~750,000 residents contribute, making for a bit of a twist on the phrase, 'welfare state.'

And I receive a check at least once per year, as does every other qualified Alaska resident, regardless of age, for a percentage of the oil wealth's earnings in the State's Permanent Fund Reserve account.

Thank you, Blue America, for keeping our Bubbas in better ammo and pick-up trucks.

 

[Tudo]

For GRY and others into veggies

 

[audiohi]

 

[h.h.]

Considering past agreements in Europe re. NATO, I was pretty sure it was what 'we'd' said, as well.

What we said killed grandma in Ukraine? Sounds like a rabbit hole of Russian bs. Bottom line, putin lead an unprovoked attack under false premises.NATO was not his excuse.
America has at times done some truly desperate acts under poor leadership. That can be twisted into a dialogue of disingenuous bullshit by those claiming superior knowledge only to sell you on buying their shit. Don’t buy it.

 

[moose eater]

What we said killed grandma in Ukraine? Sounds like a rabbit hole of Russian bs. Bottom line, putin lead an unprovoked attack under false premises.NATO was not his excuse.
America has at times done some truly desperate acts under poor leadership. That can be twisted into a dialogue of disingenuous bullshit by those claiming superior knowledge only to sell you on buying their shit. Don’t buy it.

What 'we' said was that NATO would not expand any further. The rabbit hole is more about agreements that some seem to think aren't significant.What's a person's or Nation's word worth? I bet there's a whole bunch of Native Americans who understand that perspective quite well.

No, there was no formal agreement or treaty signed, but assurances were made 32 years ago, verbally.

But in 1997:

5/15/97 Fact Sheet: NATO-Russia Founding Act

and......

----------------------------------------snip-----------------------

"""
One key statement came during a Feb. 9, 1990, meeting between Baker and Gorbachev.

After explaining why the U.S. wanted the reunited Germany to stay within the framework of NATO, Baker told Gorbachev that "if we maintain a presence in a Germany that is a part of NATO, there would be no extension of NATO's jurisdiction for forces of NATO 1 inch to the east.""""

Fact-checking claims that NATO broke agreement on expansion

Two days before Russia invaded Ukraine with an assault that intelligence officials had warned was coming, conservative c

www.politifact.com

While politifact states that an assertion of any formal agreement to such a stipulation is 'mostly false,' Sec of State James Baker did, indeed, make the statement above, as a representative of the United States.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Op-Ed: Russia's got a point: The U.S. broke a NATO promise

Moscow solidified its hold on Crimea in April, outlawing the Tatar legislature that had opposed Russia’s annexation of the region since 2014.

www.latimes.com

 

[h.h.]

Non aggressive assurances? Seems like Putin’s in violation. I’m mad at you for not cutting your grass, but you’re a big guy, so I beat on my smaller neighbor? Come on. This is just somebody putting sticks together trying to make firewood to sell. Russia and Ukraine have a long history that doesn’t involve NATO nor us.

 

[moose eater]

Non aggressive assurances? Seems like Putin’s in violation. I’m mad at you for not cutting your grass, but you’re a big guy, so I beat on my smaller neighbor? Come on. This is just somebody putting sticks together trying to make firewood to sell. Russia and Ukraine have a long history that doesn’t involve NATO nor us.

The US has been playing games in Ukraine for over 40 years.

 

[audiohi]

What was that US guys name that advised the Ukraine government for like ten years?

Paul Manafort?

 

[h.h.]

Russia has been playing games in Ukraine for much longer. But…Okay. I guess it’s all our fault for making putin mad. Enjoy the rabbit hole. It’s really just a bottomless pit. Putin wants the port.

 

[h.h.]

What 'we' said was that NATO would not expand any further. The rabbit hole is more about agreements that some seem to think aren't significant.What's a person's or Nation's word worth? I bet there's a whole bunch of Native Americans who understand that perspective quite well.

No, there was no formal agreement or treaty signed, but assurances were made 32 years ago, verbally.

But in 1997:

5/15/97 Fact Sheet: NATO-Russia Founding Act

and......

----------------------------------------snip-----------------------

"""
One key statement came during a Feb. 9, 1990, meeting between Baker and Gorbachev.

After explaining why the U.S. wanted the reunited Germany to stay within the framework of NATO, Baker told Gorbachev that "if we maintain a presence in a Germany that is a part of NATO, there would be no extension of NATO's jurisdiction for forces of NATO 1 inch to the east.""""

Fact-checking claims that NATO broke agreement on expansion

Two days before Russia invaded Ukraine with an assault that intelligence officials had warned was coming, conservative c

www.politifact.com

While politifact states that an assertion of any formal agreement to such a stipulation is 'mostly false,' Sec of State James Baker did, indeed, make the statement above, as a representative of the United States.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Op-Ed: Russia's got a point: The U.S. broke a NATO promise

Moscow solidified its hold on Crimea in April, outlawing the Tatar legislature that had opposed Russia’s annexation of the region since 2014.

www.latimes.com

As you said, it wasn’t part of the agreement. They were negotiating. You ever bought a car? In Bakers words, it was a “what if” proposition, which actually makes sense , since their was nothing Put up for compensation. Since the Polish revolt, the USSR was not in a good position to deal. We wouldn’t have given it all up for nothing. Besides, we don’t have absolute control of NATO, nor do we have authority to decide what Ukraine, Finland et al does.