If the plant is displaying perfect nutrition by week 7.5, I might start just water at that point.
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Top-feeding only... why I like it.
- Thread starter Crazy Composer
- Start date
This thread is great CC! Thanks for helping others out like this. Great looking plants too. I always love reading new information that really makes the community sit back and think. Certainly very different than the gigantic smart pot grows and such we always see! Keep up the good work.
Respect CC, this is the second time I've commented on our similar styles. First was with growing the MOB at the same time. I have been growing this way for years. Using OF as a base, a little Rooters in the soil, and top dressed with Espoma flower-tone every 2 weeks. I only add 1.5 tbls. per 7 gallon pot every 2 weeks. I use OF as the base because it contains a nice amount of sea based ingredients and the espoma contains many from the land. With literally no doubling up of any 1 ingredient, they contain virtually none of the same ingredients. People have a hard time believing I can grow such quality product so cheaply until I open my jar, no doubting it then. Happened every time I had a session with someone at the cup end of last month.
Stayfoolish
Member
How much would you to dress on a 7.5 gal? I do about a spoonfuls or two of the guano and a little less of the kelp. I think I will give this a run because I need to transplant and my soil is really barren at this point I'd assume. Will go mix my minerals greens and and rockdusts etc in but for my macro nutrients probably just top dress them.
it worked well in my earthboxes years back......yeehaw
evertking
Active member
thank you CC
thank you CC
This right here is why I still come here! Use to swing through icmag and find the likes of CC dropping serious knowledge. Those plants are amazing. Hows he do it?? Experience... Scratching guano or the whole AN line. Don't matter.. Just another example of time trumps tec.
thank you CC
This right here is why I still come here! Use to swing through icmag and find the likes of CC dropping serious knowledge. Those plants are amazing. Hows he do it?? Experience... Scratching guano or the whole AN line. Don't matter.. Just another example of time trumps tec.
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I'm growing my first 2 following the same method, including letting the water steep in a bit before finishing. I just switched from guano with nitrogen to guano with phosphorous. I add bone meal into the mix, with an occasional dose of molasses and epsom salts, and lately the Big Bloom. My plants have almost tripled in size since I turned on the HPS lamp 11 days ago. I had to stop feeding with blood meal due to the high acidity in my FFOF soil after experiencing a slight nute burn on some leaves. Other than that, they've been thriving in 5 gal. pots.
Terrific post CC, and a great affirmation of how I've been raising my girls
Terrific post CC, and a great affirmation of how I've been raising my girls
evertking, what you just wrote is why I come here still... I really dig it when people learn something, and I have a secret fetish for witnessing the moment when someone's mind is changed and/or expanded.Knowledge is all you can take with you. 
Ja, das ist gut! Sehr gut! Keep the organic sources varied. A wide variety of organic materials, in small amounts, applied weekly is important. Just guanos can lead to deficiencies.
Ja, das ist gut! Sehr gut!
Keep the organic sources varied. A wide variety of organic materials, in small amounts, applied weekly is important. Just guanos can lead to deficiencies.
I am doing a sort of top-feeding too, and I am a big fan of it for adding in food over time. In my case, I put compost and EWC into the mix to begin with, but as they deplete those initial reserves I add in more food. I use a forest mulch on top of the soil, and it always breeds nice mycellium and helps keep the water levels near the surface of the soil more consistent with the soil below. What I do is carefully remove all this mulch at feeding time and then add in the food I want to use in a mixed-up layer. Then I place the mulch back over top of it and water with a bit of pond enzyme in it(lacto cultures). The fungus from the mulch colonizes the food right below it and links back up with the fungus in the soil below, and the lacto helps break down the new food so the fungus has an easier time using it. I've been extremely happy with this method so far. It revived my struggling plants and turned them fast-growing and beautiful in a shockingly short amount of time. I haven't been very precise though about what foods I add. I make my own compost outside and use a little of that, a little commercial EWC, and various Espoma products. Sometimes I also use a bottled organic fertilizer I got from the dollar store(they sometimes get surplus of some pretty good stuff and sell it for 1 dollar), but that sees far more use on my outside guerrilla stuff since it's stealthier than hauling around loads of manure and ewc....
Z
z-ro
CC, for years you have talked about getting your OG to yield 8+ oz out of a 3 gallon, it used to be coco now you're saying soil. Thing is, and I've asked before and never got an answer is how much light is each plant getting? Yield per plant doesn't mean anything IMO, that plant could be under its own 1k for all we know... Now if you had 9 plants under one light that size it would be something special, but even with 4 that's a normal achivable yield for most gardens. I've had 4 oz plants in half gallon pots with 9 per 750 watt bulb they just had to be watered 2-3x a day. So please when you tell people about your yields, don't leave out a big part of the equation because it give people a false sense of accomplishment/failure.
Just for you, z-ro, I measured my room and divided by the number of watts in there. It's 40.44 watts of HPS per square foot.
It comes down to a natural knack. Just as I am no mechanic, and I'm not good at computer programming or being a jerk to random strangers etc, I AM good at growing cannabis indoors. It's my knack. I'm sorry that your own growing experiences have lead you to believe that my results are unachievable. It's just the way the mop flops. I have it in my blood. My great great Grandmother was the last in a long line of Ojibwe medicine people. Understanding medicinal plants has ALWAYS been to me like honey to a bear, or shit to a fly. I can't fix a car, or build you a nice barn, but I can grow the HELL out of cannabis. You'd be right to finally believe this, wrong to keep doubting. But we all have the right to be wrong if we so choose. I don't care.
It comes down to a natural knack. Just as I am no mechanic, and I'm not good at computer programming or being a jerk to random strangers etc, I AM good at growing cannabis indoors. It's my knack. I'm sorry that your own growing experiences have lead you to believe that my results are unachievable. It's just the way the mop flops. I have it in my blood. My great great Grandmother was the last in a long line of Ojibwe medicine people. Understanding medicinal plants has ALWAYS been to me like honey to a bear, or shit to a fly. I can't fix a car, or build you a nice barn, but I can grow the HELL out of cannabis. You'd be right to finally believe this, wrong to keep doubting. But we all have the right to be wrong if we so choose.
I don't care.
I think I have less growing experience than you CC, but I definitely don't find your results to be unbelievable. Modern organics isn't your grandmother's gardening techniques! I grew some sweet plants that were 4' tall using less than a gallon of soil a few years ago. It's really a matter of paying attention to their needs and keeping conditions good. You clearly know how to "listen" to your girls. I do think z-ro was a bit abrasive with what he had to say, but some of it was fair questioning. I wouldn't let it get ya riled up. Even if you were using double that light it would still be a fine result. The proof is in the pot! People get way too obsessed with gram per watt ratios and all that, when they really need to be focusing on making good quality organic weed and giving the plant everything it asks you for.
How much stretch did you experience? Do you find letting them stretch much helps or hurts yields/quality? I use side-lights and my plants typically stretch 20% at most if it's a sativa dominant strain, and I've had indica dominants stetch as little as 5%. Should I be cutting out the side lights in the early stages of flower so they get taller? I know it's a bit off topic, but I respect your organic approach and would love to know what you think about it. I'd also like to know how long you generally think is good to veg for. I have about 4 feet to work with above the top of the soil and the "too close" zone of the light. I'm growing Northern Lights though and a mystery sativa that I am hoping will be comparable to it's parent....
How much stretch did you experience? Do you find letting them stretch much helps or hurts yields/quality? I use side-lights and my plants typically stretch 20% at most if it's a sativa dominant strain, and I've had indica dominants stetch as little as 5%. Should I be cutting out the side lights in the early stages of flower so they get taller? I know it's a bit off topic, but I respect your organic approach and would love to know what you think about it. I'd also like to know how long you generally think is good to veg for. I have about 4 feet to work with above the top of the soil and the "too close" zone of the light. I'm growing Northern Lights though and a mystery sativa that I am hoping will be comparable to it's parent....
This thread has me planning my next grow differently. I especially like one of the earlier points you made about being able to "flush" organics this way. I wasn't able to get my plants to "fade" in these huge pots. I'll spare you the details.....
Can you specify what varieties you go thru in flower? You mentioned compost, guanos and meals in your first cpl posts, which I also use. But it'd be great to know....
A. what varieties of guanos and meals you use.
B. Do you use multiple guanos/meals together? Or one this week, and a different one next week?
Sorry for all the questions.
Can you specify what varieties you go thru in flower? You mentioned compost, guanos and meals in your first cpl posts, which I also use. But it'd be great to know....
A. what varieties of guanos and meals you use.
B. Do you use multiple guanos/meals together? Or one this week, and a different one next week?
Sorry for all the questions.
magiccannabus, Honestly, I had to refresh my memory as to this whole watts/sq foot deal after z-ro's question. I won't remember in a few days from now, I'm not worried about that. I look at the light in the room and the light through the canopy and judge by eye. Simple as that. As for stretch... I LIKE plants similar to OG Kush, Sour Diesel because they DO stretch. My style of gardening is complemented by a good stretch. IMO, the stocky, tightly-internoded plants present more of a problem than a benefit to my style of gardening. As for how long to veg... I don't know. Depends on the behavior of each strain. If I'm vegging Sour Diesels and MOBs together, I will end up putting the Sours into flower a week or more earlier than the MOBs because the MOBs veg slower/have shorter internodes. So, it's hard for me or any honest grower to give such advice without being disingenuous. Each strain must be grown with your particular style, in your particular garden one time, then you can judge a more ideal way to go about it next time. I wish it were more of a cookie cutter kind of deal so I can give cookie cutter advice that would be absolutely accurate, but this would be insincere. Each strain needs to be grown, then adjusted for each garden/gardener.
I find giving grow advice is terribly difficult, because even when I help someone set up and govern their gardens... the results are not the same as mine. This has perplexed me many times over the years, but it is just the way it goes. So, I can tell you what I have achieved with certain methods and theories, but it often pisses people off who can't seem to get the results I get, even with the same basic setup and methodology. Some may do better, it's a mystery to me overall. I'm not lying, and it sucks to read that even one person thinks I'm being dishonest just because my results don't square with what they, themselves have achieved. Small stuff, I know.
northernm, Ja, Deutsche. Well... length of veg... again, it depends doesn't it? In my veg garden, which is 600 watts HPS in a 4x4 tent, it takes about 10-14 days of veg to get to the right height, unless they are slow to take to their new soil, then it, may take longer. The real point (for my garden) is to get them to 12-18" with as robust a stature as possible... This is what I do. The REAL magic happens in the first three weeks of 12/12. IF they get the best possible positions in the flower room as possible when they first go in, they will continue to stretch and branch like crazy. They are vegged in their 3 or 4 gallon containers until I think the roots are well-established, then set them to flower. My transplanting schedule goes like this... Rooted clones go to beer cups, then the beer cup plants go to about 8" in height or so (for the ECSD, OG and other stretchy plants I like for their growth habits), they may get topped, depending on whether I am seeing the number of growth tips I want to see. The beer cup stage is done under a T5 light. Once they are the right size and volume in the beer cups, they go straight to the final pots and vegged under 600 watts HPS. If all goes well, they only need a week or two in veg before they HAVE to go to flower, or they'll get too damn big in the flower room. All the while they get nothing but top-fed organic nutrient sources.
Marlo, Honestly, I am not a mechanical kind of a being. I don't do the same thing every time, I mess up as I experiment, I make great discoveries for myself in this way, also. What I can say in general, though is this... in flower I use: bone meal, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, appropriate guanos, earth worm castings and forest floor compost... all in small amounts. I smell the resins of the plant to tell if they have enough to eat, look at their reaction to what organic material they currently have access to, and determine based on the overall signs of the plant whether they are soon to need more of something or not. The more stripped-down, beautiful and clean the smell of the resin is, the less the plant is eating. Same as when a flush is happening and the smell of the resins gets sweeter, purer, less chemy. The chemy smell is (in a healthy organic plant) a sign of plenty of nutrient uptake. That's not to say that all chemy-smelling plants are well-fed, it just means they -at least- have plenty of something available. You can have plenty of phosphorus, while having a lack of nitrogen. The smell would still be chemy, but this only tells you there's plenty of SOMETHING in there, not everything. Also, another way to test nutrient uptake is to snap off a fan leaf and taste the water droplet that forms on the break. If it tastes like pure water, the plant has little access to nutrients. If, however the water tastes tart, the plant DOES have access to nutrient. The more tart, the more ample the nutrient source is. This is how I can tell for sure if the plant is flushed enough to harvest for a clean burning product. Shhh! Don't tell everyone my secrets.
I use multiple guanos, meals and composts together... but not as an absolute rule. Composts need less applications than the other materials. Guanos with high nitrogen need more applications because nitrogen depletes very quickly from top-fed guanos. So, a basic plan from week 1 of flower would look (something) like this: week 1 - sea bird guano with high nitrogen and phosphorus as well as some kelp and feather and fish meal. Week 2 - sea bird guano and a little compost and earth worm castings. Week 3 - (aggressive bud set) - sea bird guano and bone meal and kelp meal and fish meal and feather meal. Week 4 - sea bird guano and the meals again. Week 5 - sea bird guano and the meals again, with an emphasis on the bone meal, and also compost and earth worm castings (because the last application of EWC and compost are by now quite tired. Week 6 - no more sea bird guano, just the meals, with an emphasis on bone. Week 7 through finish are nothing but water and waiting for the plant to eat up what was fed to them earlier in flower.
But remember... the above schedule is just a basic guideline for how I do it. Each plant may ask for something slightly different from the next plant... this is where the "knack" comes in. You have to understand the behaviors and contributions of each organic material you use. In other words, you need to know that bone meal is a slow release nutrient source, and seabird guano is a fast releaser of nitrogen, etc. There's no better knowledge to pursue, for the organic grower, than the knowledge of how each organic material behaves once applied and wetted. The next best knowledge to pursue is how to apply these materials in an even and moderate amount over time. Over-application can lead to issues, just as under-application leads to issues. The happy-medium for your plants and for your particular garden conditions can only be discovered through trial and error. There is no single answer, no "easy button" unfortunately. Low doses of a wide variety of growth-cycle-appropriate organic materials is the key. Low and slow. If you aren't giving enough, just give more. If the resins are smelling too chemy, feed less. After a while the proper equilibrium becomes obvious to the adept grower, and the amateur grower becomes more adept at achieving the equilibrium.
I find giving grow advice is terribly difficult, because even when I help someone set up and govern their gardens... the results are not the same as mine. This has perplexed me many times over the years, but it is just the way it goes. So, I can tell you what I have achieved with certain methods and theories, but it often pisses people off who can't seem to get the results I get, even with the same basic setup and methodology. Some may do better, it's a mystery to me overall. I'm not lying, and it sucks to read that even one person thinks I'm being dishonest just because my results don't square with what they, themselves have achieved. Small stuff, I know.
northernm, Ja, Deutsche. Well... length of veg... again, it depends doesn't it? In my veg garden, which is 600 watts HPS in a 4x4 tent, it takes about 10-14 days of veg to get to the right height, unless they are slow to take to their new soil, then it, may take longer. The real point (for my garden) is to get them to 12-18" with as robust a stature as possible... This is what I do. The REAL magic happens in the first three weeks of 12/12. IF they get the best possible positions in the flower room as possible when they first go in, they will continue to stretch and branch like crazy. They are vegged in their 3 or 4 gallon containers until I think the roots are well-established, then set them to flower. My transplanting schedule goes like this... Rooted clones go to beer cups, then the beer cup plants go to about 8" in height or so (for the ECSD, OG and other stretchy plants I like for their growth habits), they may get topped, depending on whether I am seeing the number of growth tips I want to see. The beer cup stage is done under a T5 light. Once they are the right size and volume in the beer cups, they go straight to the final pots and vegged under 600 watts HPS. If all goes well, they only need a week or two in veg before they HAVE to go to flower, or they'll get too damn big in the flower room. All the while they get nothing but top-fed organic nutrient sources.
Marlo, Honestly, I am not a mechanical kind of a being. I don't do the same thing every time, I mess up as I experiment, I make great discoveries for myself in this way, also. What I can say in general, though is this... in flower I use: bone meal, kelp meal, alfalfa meal, appropriate guanos, earth worm castings and forest floor compost... all in small amounts. I smell the resins of the plant to tell if they have enough to eat, look at their reaction to what organic material they currently have access to, and determine based on the overall signs of the plant whether they are soon to need more of something or not. The more stripped-down, beautiful and clean the smell of the resin is, the less the plant is eating. Same as when a flush is happening and the smell of the resins gets sweeter, purer, less chemy. The chemy smell is (in a healthy organic plant) a sign of plenty of nutrient uptake. That's not to say that all chemy-smelling plants are well-fed, it just means they -at least- have plenty of something available. You can have plenty of phosphorus, while having a lack of nitrogen. The smell would still be chemy, but this only tells you there's plenty of SOMETHING in there, not everything. Also, another way to test nutrient uptake is to snap off a fan leaf and taste the water droplet that forms on the break. If it tastes like pure water, the plant has little access to nutrients. If, however the water tastes tart, the plant DOES have access to nutrient. The more tart, the more ample the nutrient source is. This is how I can tell for sure if the plant is flushed enough to harvest for a clean burning product. Shhh! Don't tell everyone my secrets.
I use multiple guanos, meals and composts together... but not as an absolute rule. Composts need less applications than the other materials. Guanos with high nitrogen need more applications because nitrogen depletes very quickly from top-fed guanos. So, a basic plan from week 1 of flower would look (something) like this: week 1 - sea bird guano with high nitrogen and phosphorus as well as some kelp and feather and fish meal. Week 2 - sea bird guano and a little compost and earth worm castings. Week 3 - (aggressive bud set) - sea bird guano and bone meal and kelp meal and fish meal and feather meal. Week 4 - sea bird guano and the meals again. Week 5 - sea bird guano and the meals again, with an emphasis on the bone meal, and also compost and earth worm castings (because the last application of EWC and compost are by now quite tired. Week 6 - no more sea bird guano, just the meals, with an emphasis on bone. Week 7 through finish are nothing but water and waiting for the plant to eat up what was fed to them earlier in flower.
But remember... the above schedule is just a basic guideline for how I do it. Each plant may ask for something slightly different from the next plant... this is where the "knack" comes in. You have to understand the behaviors and contributions of each organic material you use. In other words, you need to know that bone meal is a slow release nutrient source, and seabird guano is a fast releaser of nitrogen, etc. There's no better knowledge to pursue, for the organic grower, than the knowledge of how each organic material behaves once applied and wetted. The next best knowledge to pursue is how to apply these materials in an even and moderate amount over time. Over-application can lead to issues, just as under-application leads to issues. The happy-medium for your plants and for your particular garden conditions can only be discovered through trial and error. There is no single answer, no "easy button" unfortunately. Low doses of a wide variety of growth-cycle-appropriate organic materials is the key. Low and slow. If you aren't giving enough, just give more. If the resins are smelling too chemy, feed less. After a while the proper equilibrium becomes obvious to the adept grower, and the amateur grower becomes more adept at achieving the equilibrium.
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No worries man, I won't hold you accountable for my results lol! Maybe a better question for me to have asked was "How tall do you veg them before flower?" and "Do you top, train, or FIM them?". I'm not greedy, I will be happy if I get half that amount(though I wouldn't complain if I got double!).
