Now you’re talking my language
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Tom Hill Haze
- Thread starter Morphote
- Start date
Hi Maha.
Statements like that would only be made by somebody who doesn't really understand how HUGE the USA is, or they weren't old enough to be in the game when the period you are talking about went down here. Either that or they never really thought about the fact that their experience here back then was a tiny bubble in an ocean of bubbles.
It is just a massive incorrect generalization.
European countries are the size of American states, so it isn't surprising that this might not be obvious to someone not from the US. Of course, each city/state/region had it's own pipelines in the black market herb trade. Hell, a load could be brought in by one passionate adventurer that would never make it beyond a group of 50 or 100 people. And of course, individual weed lovers carried their best stuff with them when they traveled around, like dead shows, but on a micro scale. Seeds and quarter pounds came back to college campuses after christmas vacation every year, then spread around and traveled again, outward to the 4 corners of the country. Just one example of how things flowed and disappeared.
Basically, the "good stuff" was everywhere, all the time, and almost impossible to get (if that makes any sense.) Like catching lighting.
Even though it was MUCH easier to find commercial Mexican herb on the west coast of the US, and commercial Colombian dominated the east coast in the late 70s, it didn't mean that the obvious trade route bias wasn't crossed on a regular basis when there was demand and opportunity for profit.
Some places in the US are like magnets and attract the best black market goods to them from all over the world.
The SF Bay Area was one of those places, NYC of course. There are many others but I figure I had to list at least 2.
You can't discount the giant magnetic effect of the market in the Bay Area: the hippie culture which was born there and still raging, and the money that was always touching the lives of people who live in some of the most valuable real estate in the world.
The boys over the mountain down in Santa Cruz benefited from all that. They were in the center of the weed universe, and every corner of the planet was scoured for her flowering treasures and returned to that beautiful bosom of the Aquarian generation.
Dr. Purpur has a story of his visit to an exclusive cannabis house in SF run by none other than the Dennis Peron. He describes being admitted to the house by a doorman who confirmed he was OK (can't remember the details) walking through beaded curtains to a room with people sitting on pillows on the floor. The room was filled with baskets of buds from all over the world all there in one place, for sale as much as you wanted. This was his personal account. It's up here somewhere I think. Worth searching for.
His personal experience perfectly illustrates my point about the bay area back then.
My imagination may have added a bit of color and left out just as much, but he painted a great picture
Weed culture in the US could be completely different from one town to the next. Hell, even in a single town, some people might be smoking from red bud bales that came in on a small plane load of a 300 pounds. People a mile away might never know anything about it, and live a life never experiencing anything but bales of low grade seeded Mex.
It was literally that fragmented. Think of it as cells, and it was all about who you know. People kept shit very low key, Commercial was everywhere and anyone could get it, but getting into circles with the good stuff was not easy at all.
Every time I was lucky enough to get access to one of those special circles, I felt like the luckiest guy in the world. Weed thrust me into brushes with famous people several times. When I think about it, I still marvel at the luck I had. Not sure if luck is the right word. Maybe magic.
Anyway, just wanted to drop a bit time-capsuled experience on the speculation/assumptions there.
It was an amazing time to be alive, and I understand the fascination with it by people today, trying to imagine what it was like.
I wish we had time machines and we could all go back to visit it together.
It would be the best party ever.
Cheers !
I agree, it's an accurate reflection of the time. It's why many thought the weed from that time was weak when it was every bit as potent as today just much harder to find. The best weed was kept to a small group of people. Today we have thousands of people in ea state growing weed. Finding good weed is much easier today.
vtgirl
Member
Did u find it brother?
I see your point, but my post, you quoted, was about genetics, not about weed culture. and that's why it was in one simple sentence - and in one sentence you cant avoid generalization, that's how language works, not so important in comparison of colombian gold vs. south asian genetics.
my intention was not to map the whole scene with every corner of it, or any historical accuracy like that.
in same manner we can discuss influence of indica, that somebody somewhere, in the spring of 1972, was growing some mazars, but main wave of indicas came in early 80s. it is generalization which doesn't count with marginal cases of growing indicas here and there. but it doesn't mean, it is not true that MAIN growing of indica hashplants started in early 80s... so I dont think that generalization that colombian gold was massively imported compared to rare import of Punto Rojo, or what people in Latin America called as Punto Rojo(as cartels can give punto rojo tag on any things they imported), is not true.
I just repeated information I read about colombian smoke in USA vs. mexican smoke in USA in article of new york times from late 70s where there are many smoke reports of the smoke from different people, what usual smokers say about it - again not so important if they were from east coast or middle west, in that article they were from different places, but not from all people ever, or maybe author thought it out to have some article -, and article from dj short about the herb of yesteryear and it was the same description of colombian gold smoke present there. which apparently resembles smoke reports of seedsman haze. and I referred to funkyhorse, who remembers punto rojo in latin America in 70s and 80s and according to him, not much of this herb got to USA, maybe some hints, by the way those guys from Latin America dont think USA had the best weed in that times, probably little shocking for you
in this case, information from those people who worked in cartels and were growing weed for import to USA would have bigger historical value than information from american stoners. as colombian haze came for Colombia, right? but again that was not my intention for any detailed historical research.
and I have never claimed that.
so you grew seedsman, and you can compare it with toms haze if you grew it, that would be nice contribution to this thread. and then you can confirm or deny Tom Hills opinion on colombians vs. thais. if not, grow toms haze and came back with your opinion, I will read it with interest.
shit. now my morning tea is cold. thank you Raho
Sorry about the tea man ;-)
Writing all that post, I just found the concepts were more complicated that I expected, and struggled to put them together concisely. After I felt I had gotten in all down, I posted, just didn't have more time to refine/polish it.
Like Shakespeare said, "Brevity is the soul of whit" and I always try to make my writing as tight as I can.
Last night though, I just didn't have time.
There are a lot of newer people here now who I know nothing about (like funkyhorse) so what you say about his background is interesting. Whenever I see people I don't know say things with a sound of authority that don't jive with what I lived through in the real world ("grandpa nostalgia"), I usually just ignore it these days.
Since you had seemed to embrace the concept though, and I know enough about you to care if you've accepted false concepts as facts, I felt like I should say something.
I didn't plan to write that much, though :-(
If funkyhorse was involved with weed in colombia in the the 70's, then that's great!
There's nothing shocking at all to me about what you say he said.
Of course his statement about the US not getting the best weed is true for any weed farmer, as the best of the best never leaves the farm.
But the (best) flowers those farmers smoked on the farm aren't what created the legends we are talking about today are they?
The legends came from the US first, where the (second class?) flowers from (his?) farm grew a reputation that spread like a virus.
The idea being that right now if there is some farmer in the middle of nowhere smoking the best weed in the world that nobody but him knows about, can it really be the best weed in the world?
It's the old philosophical experiment question: “If a tree falls in a forest, and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?”
I say who cares? In this case, the sound of falling trees is the herb and the only sounds (smoke) that matters are the ones from "trees" that made it out of the woods to the market.
Americans took what was imported to the biggest weed market in the world and that is where the legend came from. Haze is what they made with what they had. Then her caretakers took the genetics to safety in NL after our laws drove them out of the country to a place where they could be safely propagated elsewhere. Funny how the plant has us trained to protect her, eh? We all know what happened after that.
Regarding indicas, friends of mine in 79 were growing hawaiian indy/sat hybrid they brought back from vacation. In 81/82, I was the only one (that I knew) in my town that had pure indica. By 83, my deadhead friends were bringing me THEIR indica seeds and flowers. It happened very FAST. I know this is "grandpa nostalgia" but since you apparently weren't around back then, I appreciate you indulging my reminiscence.
Regarding the influence of gold vs punta rojo in Haze, I have always resisted the temptation to label it's effect as dominant to one parent line or another, simply because there are so many haze phenos out there, and I can feel easily the effects from both Gold and Punto Rojo in there, just as it felt 40 years ago (again, I understand your desire to not have to deal with old people and their memories. Forgive me.)
If I ever get around to growing my collection of Tom's haze and the hybrids I have made with it (collaborations) I'll definitely post them up here. I tend to side with Sam on the presence or absence of Thai in "haze", and have yet to see anyone post a description of effects in his "haze" that are exclusive to Thai weed.
Willing to believe that it's in there though, but then according to Sam it would be a haze hybrid, not Haze, so there's that.
THHH (Tom Hill's Haze Hybrid.)
Anyway I've done it again, and now my coffee's cold ;-)
If I cared more, I'd edit this down a bit, but it seems like I've made you cranky . . . not my intention . . . so I'll end my comments on this here.
funkyhorse
Well-known member
I have no time to write these days,this is very funny, the problem is if you shut up it is kind of approving it which is not the case
You need to understand this is an international forum with people using translators and having very different language backgrounds as mother tongue, which is giving in result different thought process and things might get a little mixed up and suddenly I am reading respectful people saying I am a reference in ganja and I can only say that can only happen in the magic of internet. But I do have life experience and when that life experience matches with what I read it gives more authority to your word
Up to 4 years ago I never ever heard of anyone in the canna world until I came here for knowledge how to grow ganja because where I am living the street quality is absolute rubbish as opposed to not so long ago
I never been in my life in Usa nor I have ever been interested in travelling to the north american continent. But I have been a few times in Canada, it is a beautiful very cold country, not for me
I have no clue about Usa. I left south america in the 80s and I spent most of my life in Asia. So my memories are kind of locked in time
I have never been in Colombia and I started smoking in the 80s. And I had the rare chance to compare side by side in real life south american and asian weed and hash/charas. Ganja in the 20th century had character, every single batch had a unique high. Today from what I am smoking from commercial breeding, highs are pretty much uniform and they dont have much character. I am not finding any strain that stands out at the moment. Weed coming from one region is smoking similarly
So far the only strain I found I can say has character and is a surprise is Swazi Skunk. It was full of hermies and a lot of mold problems but the plants that made it here are very good. I think it is an underrrated strain and there are many like that in the canna world
South of Colombia in the 80s there were 2 different bricks: a minority of colombian brick called Punto Rojo and paraguayan which was called...paraguayan. They were different bricks, easy to recognize
I grew now Red Snake. The "Punto Rojo" pheno behaves same like like TexasTea is posting in the PR thread. Grown straight from seed under 11/13, it shows sex after 55 days. Ohz shows sex on same conditions after 90 days. This "Punto Rojo" pheno makes fat seed. As fat as thai or lao. It has huge munchies as feature. So I can comment a little bit about this. I am selecting this out. It looks like tamed ganja with tamed high and it is not of my liking. It has nothing to do with the brick of the 80s which contained small seed
I never ever heard of Colombian Gold until I came to this site. All colombian I knew of was called Punto Rojo. Never heard of Mangobiche or Santa marta until I came here. I grew CG72 from JGL and I am growing it again. For me it has the high of the 2000s. It is not 70 or 80s weed which was pretty much the same. The big difference started in the 90s around the planet
In the third world the quality of street drug until 10 years ago was much much much better than the quality of european drugs. I cannot talk about Usa but according to different american people posting here, quality of street drugs is like europe, low quality
The first indica that I know of south of Colombia is a strain called Epuyén which made a little revolution at that time
It was brought by french immigrants to latitude 42 south around 1980/81. Until then the local hippies were growing plants coming out of the paraguayan brick
They could never smoke buds, they smoked the leaves and with the roots they made coffee. There are no pictures or documents left of that time because it was a military dictatorship and all those documents have been burned for safety
The revolution was because they could actually smoke buds for the first time grown there. Epuyen is a strain of short plants, around 90cm to 1mt high. Very different from the huge trees of thin leaf plants they were growing before that
I never smoked it, so dont ask me how it is. The family still holds the strain and they dont give it away for same reasons many others dont share their strains: a fear of the strain being commercially sold by canna vultures of any kind
These two guys are references of ganja in South America and they should know more about this.
gkn
Atreyu
You need to understand this is an international forum with people using translators and having very different language backgrounds as mother tongue, which is giving in result different thought process and things might get a little mixed up and suddenly I am reading respectful people saying I am a reference in ganja and I can only say that can only happen in the magic of internet. But I do have life experience and when that life experience matches with what I read it gives more authority to your word
Up to 4 years ago I never ever heard of anyone in the canna world until I came here for knowledge how to grow ganja because where I am living the street quality is absolute rubbish as opposed to not so long ago
I never been in my life in Usa nor I have ever been interested in travelling to the north american continent. But I have been a few times in Canada, it is a beautiful very cold country, not for me
I have no clue about Usa. I left south america in the 80s and I spent most of my life in Asia. So my memories are kind of locked in time
I have never been in Colombia and I started smoking in the 80s. And I had the rare chance to compare side by side in real life south american and asian weed and hash/charas. Ganja in the 20th century had character, every single batch had a unique high. Today from what I am smoking from commercial breeding, highs are pretty much uniform and they dont have much character. I am not finding any strain that stands out at the moment. Weed coming from one region is smoking similarly
So far the only strain I found I can say has character and is a surprise is Swazi Skunk. It was full of hermies and a lot of mold problems but the plants that made it here are very good. I think it is an underrrated strain and there are many like that in the canna world
South of Colombia in the 80s there were 2 different bricks: a minority of colombian brick called Punto Rojo and paraguayan which was called...paraguayan. They were different bricks, easy to recognize
I grew now Red Snake. The "Punto Rojo" pheno behaves same like like TexasTea is posting in the PR thread. Grown straight from seed under 11/13, it shows sex after 55 days. Ohz shows sex on same conditions after 90 days. This "Punto Rojo" pheno makes fat seed. As fat as thai or lao. It has huge munchies as feature. So I can comment a little bit about this. I am selecting this out. It looks like tamed ganja with tamed high and it is not of my liking. It has nothing to do with the brick of the 80s which contained small seed
I never ever heard of Colombian Gold until I came to this site. All colombian I knew of was called Punto Rojo. Never heard of Mangobiche or Santa marta until I came here. I grew CG72 from JGL and I am growing it again. For me it has the high of the 2000s. It is not 70 or 80s weed which was pretty much the same. The big difference started in the 90s around the planet
In the third world the quality of street drug until 10 years ago was much much much better than the quality of european drugs. I cannot talk about Usa but according to different american people posting here, quality of street drugs is like europe, low quality
The first indica that I know of south of Colombia is a strain called Epuyén which made a little revolution at that time
It was brought by french immigrants to latitude 42 south around 1980/81. Until then the local hippies were growing plants coming out of the paraguayan brick
They could never smoke buds, they smoked the leaves and with the roots they made coffee. There are no pictures or documents left of that time because it was a military dictatorship and all those documents have been burned for safety
The revolution was because they could actually smoke buds for the first time grown there. Epuyen is a strain of short plants, around 90cm to 1mt high. Very different from the huge trees of thin leaf plants they were growing before that
I never smoked it, so dont ask me how it is. The family still holds the strain and they dont give it away for same reasons many others dont share their strains: a fear of the strain being commercially sold by canna vultures of any kind
These two guys are references of ganja in South America and they should know more about this.
gkn
Atreyu
You’ve pulled some fine names for a wealth of knowledge. Been a long time since I’ve talked to one of them and wish him very well. Saludos gkn
well according to Sam, who was all those years okay with colombian/thai/sout indian hybrid. and now changed it to three way colombian. can you tell us why? when you two are so close? thanks.
your reading on boards, that is your thing LOL sure you cant read it in reports about dutch hazes, but sure you can read it in threads about toms haze. I am sure that even in this thread.
I am no expert on thai weed, but I respect knowledge of some people who told me that independently. they are good teachers too. they have more experience with growing pure thais than me. so when Tom Hill would say it only. okay we could say it is subjective impression. but when other two well respected breeders. one from Australia, where thai lines are very well known. and other one who is part of the biggest sativa seedbank of today tell me it looks and smokes like thai... it is just enough for me. it would be very strange if they, all three of them, were mistaken like that. so the simplest explanation says, it is thai dominant haze line. for sure not pure thai. it surprises me that I have to warn you about this difference.
anyway it blows out of the water, all those dutch hybrids which are based on colombian, more dreamy, are not electric, no hot flushes and not that psychoactive... I agree with this, from my experience.
in the end I grew thai haze from Skunkman, so I think I know what is difference compared to his skunkhaze, which I grew too. a lot of it. skunkhaze has a lot of colombian in it right?
and in the end you can discuss it with Tom Hill, when he is back on the boards, dont forget to miss the chance
it would be better than with me.peace.
if there can be rumors about toms haze is skunkhaze or deep chunk x haze... without any proof just speculation.
I think we can put out rumor, that pharmaceutical companies from USA were growing indian hashplants in Colombia before 1930, but it didn't grow well there, so they bought sativas from Dutch company at Java, who brought them from India there to grow them as replant plants for coffee plants... so they crossed it with indian hashplants and that is where colombian "sativas" came from. I heard... so it seems, according to that rumor, - and these rumors and hearing from second hand is what rules on these boards -, that indeed colombian haze is south indian hybrid with some wld in it may be
I think we can put out rumor, that pharmaceutical companies from USA were growing indian hashplants in Colombia before 1930, but it didn't grow well there, so they bought sativas from Dutch company at Java, who brought them from India there to grow them as replant plants for coffee plants... so they crossed it with indian hashplants and that is where colombian "sativas" came from. I heard... so it seems, according to that rumor, - and these rumors and hearing from second hand is what rules on these boards -, that indeed colombian haze is south indian hybrid with some wld in it
may be I’ve seen the pod cast on Haze being a three way lumbo when it came to San Diego. The beginnings of Haze, once it hit the states is where the other lines were worked in by the Bros. So much to hash out on the Haze cultivar, and story keeps getting changes and tidbits added. Hold Tom’s, Dutchman’s, OT1s, and some of Max’s fem.
Toms has something else in the line the others don’t. I can say it’s definitly not Haze x Dc, we grew that line when I was out there in a Dep. If Sam gave out the seed, then why is positronics Haze that much different then the others. Selection, different plants found and used, haven’t a clue. But that would be my best guess if they didn’t hybridize it.
Didnt Sams Haze come from the Haze Bros? Used to be he was there when they were working the Haze, how he came to have um. Has that part of the story changed. Sam could have had Haze from different gens, aka some worked without the Thai, and some with the Thai, I mean they added a sativa yearly, so his Haze could of had multigenerational batches. How well did any of these guys keep records or notes of what they did.
im good with it being a three way out of Columbia, someone in San Diego added a sally, Haze Bros got it and went from there. They made it famous. That’s basically what I believe, lol
Toms has something else in the line the others don’t. I can say it’s definitly not Haze x Dc, we grew that line when I was out there in a Dep. If Sam gave out the seed, then why is positronics Haze that much different then the others. Selection, different plants found and used, haven’t a clue. But that would be my best guess if they didn’t hybridize it.
Didnt Sams Haze come from the Haze Bros? Used to be he was there when they were working the Haze, how he came to have um. Has that part of the story changed. Sam could have had Haze from different gens, aka some worked without the Thai, and some with the Thai, I mean they added a sativa yearly, so his Haze could of had multigenerational batches. How well did any of these guys keep records or notes of what they did.
im good with it being a three way out of Columbia, someone in San Diego added a sally, Haze Bros got it and went from there. They made it famous. That’s basically what I believe, lol
Is Nevil's Haze more like Seedsman's haze or more like Tom Hill's haze?
I'm getting the feeling that SamS himself preferred the Thai haze and that's what was passed on as haze most of the time. He has stated numerous times that the pure haze genetics were a little tired but the F1s brought the magic back.
This was the 80's and people weren't as pedantic about names. If it's a Northern Lights, it's a Northern Lights. And there were nine of those too. So when you sell your customer the haze with "Thai bloodlines" because it's your best line, there might be no reason to label it anything but a haze.
Just a feeling I'm getting. Why else would Tom's line be so different? I'm not sure it's even possible to breed towards that profile using the Seedsman line as a starting point.
When did the name original haze pop up by the way?
I'm getting the feeling that SamS himself preferred the Thai haze and that's what was passed on as haze most of the time. He has stated numerous times that the pure haze genetics were a little tired but the F1s brought the magic back.
This was the 80's and people weren't as pedantic about names. If it's a Northern Lights, it's a Northern Lights. And there were nine of those too. So when you sell your customer the haze with "Thai bloodlines" because it's your best line, there might be no reason to label it anything but a haze.
Just a feeling I'm getting. Why else would Tom's line be so different? I'm not sure it's even possible to breed towards that profile using the Seedsman line as a starting point.
When did the name original haze pop up by the way?
Really interesting feedback CBF, and you’ve been rocking THH for a while. It does seem to have a little something (in my hands) beyond the OH or the OT1, which I think those both share very similar yet perhaps earlier precursor. It seems very plausible over a few seasons that new NLD (Thai, etc. ) gets introduced to initial lumbo (Indian +) haze pool. So much of this is a fight between empirical and theoretical data. Maddening, unless we all agree to open our minds.
All this stuff went down in the 70s, we all know a story gets passed from person to person, it changes, parts left out, parts embellished, after 30yrs, it’s pretty muddled.
I don’t have a lot of experience with Thai, grown Billygoats, glimmermans, DFs(heavens stairway)hybrid in my mind, Drawohs and gold kings. All pretty much different sources.
what’s noticeable between um all is they yielded fairly dense buds, and stretch was minimal compared to many other sativas I’ve grown. All Highland Thai offerings? Did posi hit Sams Haze with Thai? Posi received a different gen then the others?
not to mention there’s Mexican in there as well, no one talking about it, my experience is they yield real well, and some of the best on the planet. When your talking a three way lumbo with three other sallies added the combinations are endless. One plant introduced to a line can totally change the outcome, to the point of being totally unrecognizable from the previous gen.
and I’d imagine there were other growers besides the Bros that got hold of the three way lumbo when it hit San Diego, or others besides Sam that got it from the Bros. Heck you could muck some sallies together and call it haze and no one would know the diff.
all I know for certain is I prefer THOHaze over others I’ve grown. Much more managable, better yields and actual buds. The acid pheno, plant I found in the first grows, your vision would actually blur for a bit, and auditory hallucinations, my buddy heard birds in the middle of the night, lol. Hard hitter.
Yeah, I was picking my nose and learning about hard-on’s through a good part of the 70’s, so had grander things on my mind lol. Main experience with Thai comes from the Cannabiogen Meao example crossed into OTH. Definitely increases bud density by a lot. Lowers flowering by a few weeks. Adds a cold strong effect. Not in a bad way, but not socially warm and bright.
The Mexican is something as my limited experience with THH would possibly suggest some sort of Mex influence. I’ve grown the Mex bag seed even in the early 80’s and I could definitely see it as plausible in the last plants I grew from Tom’s.
The Mexican is something as my limited experience with THH would possibly suggest some sort of Mex influence. I’ve grown the Mex bag seed even in the early 80’s and I could definitely see it as plausible in the last plants I grew from Tom’s.
Your story of birds at night makes me laugh thinking about some shit my friends pulled on me years ago. We’d stay up all night smoking and drinking and I’d always start bitching when the birds would begin chirping. Knowing we’d managed to waste the entire night away…yet again. Usually meant work on no sleep. One night I passed out while still dark and they set up a bird soundtrack on the stereo just to fuck with my head.
When somebody speculated that wernhart at Posi may have got his haze seed from old Ed, Sam quickly corrected them and answered no he got them* from Sam - search it. Not a haze 19 clone (whatever that is) but haze seed. Now I was fucking there guys this was labeled as original haze there was no haze such 19 but I see after the fact manipulation of history has the parent of what I grow as haze19 all over the internet. This is a gross falsehood.
Do you know what Panicz is selling as "Tom Hill Haze"?
No idea. But it's hard to believe somebody would lie about it just yet. Most folk have been sleeping on it till now. Shame, it is the best haze tehee.
Most of the dutch type haze (see leets pics) looks the part but is a Debbie downer along the lines of blue dream a muddy dirty high very typical of Mexican and Colombian.
Most of the dutch type haze (see leets pics) looks the part but is a Debbie downer along the lines of blue dream a muddy dirty high very typical of Mexican and Colombian.
I have in my mind to do one last magnum opus type release before I sail off into the sunset now that the average consumer iQ has jumped from 80 to 85 and resin quality per square ft matters more than it used to. But being the front man is not my bag guys. I'll do it, sent pics, blow your mind and all that - but I won't talk to you much about it lol.
Mallitlahuani
Active member
what a tip, ill be looking out
