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To trim fanleaves or not?

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
Bloom, flower ferts. For the bottles. I think Buddha's Tree has the highest ratio for a PK booster. I was comparing that to the ratio in the recipe that you posted and merely pondered the difference. In your recipe the figures for k were 4ish times that of P. In no way am I trying to catch you out if that is your perception, I am merely interested in your opinion.
Your recipe
P 78 ppm
K 317 ppm
 
source

source

Mr Smith, I noticed you used 4x K to P. Did I read that right? The highest ratio on the shelves is 2:1 and most seem to be 14:13.
Yeah, I normally don't bother with bottles, but having switched to LEDs I ran into a couple of problems, and the easiest fix is bottles. I can't remember the ratio in the bottles I've got now, I bought them for the iron content mainly. Do you feel there is much benefit in that amount of K?
I know you talk about the plus minus 5%, but without the essentials, you lose more than 5%. Wondering if you see that level of K as essential?
one more note the potassium to phosphorus ratio is made up for weed nutrients to pretend it's more complicated than it is .
the ratios in general are
veg 1 TO 1 K to N
bloom is minimum 1.5:1 K to N
phosphorus is absolutely not necessary in large amounts . it is a carrier molecule and does not build up as other minerals do faulty tissue analysis back in the 20's showed Low phosphate and the fertilizer companies jumped on this and pushed high phosphorus just like you see now with level of P equal or higher than K or N . phosphorus is a carrier molecule. it is how other minerals are transported across the inner root membranes . a phosphate grabs a potassium and becomes potassium phosphate and goes across the membrane . potassium is released and phosphate goes back and grabs maybe a boron and it comes boron phosphate. and the process continues. while many forums call for hundreds of ppm of phosphorus I believe 4he total at a 10/ml per liter is 78 ppm on bloom .
the reality is that refining the solution is not as much for 4he plants as it is for 4he people who make fertilizer. refining the ratio does not make the plant grow more , it means that you waste less to do it .
plants will take up what they need . toxicity can happen in nitrogen easily but for the most part as long as proper runoff and feed is achieved the plant will grow well .
here is a couple of pages on nutrient content of the most common compounds used as well as pics of 4he trifecta of hydroponic cultivation. form lettuce and tomatoes nft in 1977 all the way to rotating drum, aquaponics and virticle column drip feed . and that was in 1984. very little has changed. just to the peol3m that did not know it already happened
 

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Interesting, thank you.

hey was not sure if you were serious or sarcastic. I have been getting a lot of personal attacks as opposed to actual science discussion.
I am happy to discuss
why was it mentioned the bloom ?
that formula Is bloom. I did not do up veg one for some reason. those numbers are also adjusted for average chem purity
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
In any group of people, you get a mixed bag of personalities. There are people on here who are genuinely interested in learning. From the way you present information, some of us know that you know what you are talking about on a higher level than is common on sites like these,. Others may see someone claiming more bro science and want to compete with their own bro science. After a while, if you don't get too fed up with the latter, you'll get to know who's who.
There was no sarcasm in my posts, I was simply interested in your formulas compared to what is available off the shelf.
I'm a personal grower who recently moved from HPS to led. This comes with a new requirement that my traditional compost and water grows don't provide for. I've therefore been looking at bottles recently and spotted the difference.
I found your response interesting as I had never realised that P was merely a taxi driver for K and other passengers.
 

GMT

The Tri Guy
Veteran
I also didn't know that the important ratio was K to N as I had only noticed the differing P to K ratios.
Question, does this imply that in a no drain system, you would build up an ample supply of P rather quickly, maybe to a point of toxicity, and only require N and K?
 
nutrients

nutrients

I also didn't know that the important ratio was K to N as I had only noticed the differing P to K ratios.
Question, does this imply that in a no drain system, you would build up an ample supply of P rather quickly, maybe to a point of toxicity, and only require N and K?

awesome I really appreciate that. rhe best overall book is hydroponic food production by dr Howard m resh. it goes over nutrients extremely well. easy to read extremely precise. it also goes into every aspect of hydroponic growing. and in 1984 . everything you thought was new buy 40 years ago
 

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MoeFunk

Member
For the love of God, remove ALL fan leaves that are blocking other nodes. This is common practice nowadays for anyone who knows their shit. You yields will improve as well as the quality of your buds.
 
I also didn't know that the important ratio was K to N as I had only noticed the differing P to K ratios.
Question, does this imply that in a no drain system, you would build up an ample supply of P rather quickly, maybe to a point of toxicity, and only require N and K?

as far as no drain system..it is not recommended. the runoff is important to keep medium EC at proper level . runoff EC should never be above 25 to 50 % higher than feed .
eg 800 ec feed 1000 to 1200 runoff.
nutrients are taken up by osmosis and transpiration. the EC has to be a certain level for adequate uptake .
using a feed solution that will be exact in specific mineral uptake while keeping available minerals at a reasonable osmotic pressure ( EC) ? unlikely.
you are simply trying to kill the plant as little as you can in exchange for less watering and water removal. a reasonable gravity drain, drip feed fixes that reality. just costs 12 " of height for the raise to bucket drain height.
 

Hookahhead

Active member
I listened to this. Her research is in humidity control. She had not established a correlation with yield, which is our objective, nor is she's working with canna.

As for lower leaves not photosynthesizing effectively, sure, and that's why a taller plant drops some of them after several weeks of flower. The question is, which leaves would we remove? I've been using a light meter to dial in my flowering room for about 15 years. The researcher's suggestion of measuring the light reaching the lower leaves in unrealistic: She had access to very expensive and precise measuring tools; we don't. For us, it boils down to removing lower fan leaves indecrimenetly or letting the plant make the decision.

Was there something that I missed? Seriously.

Simon

You couldn’t have listened very well. She is definitely working on cannabis, the entire podcast is on what her research on cannabis has showed her.. it includes things like nutrients, lighting, deleafing and curing. I would like to point out that she approaches the “lollipopping” method with skepticism, because as an agricultural scientist it doesn’t seem beneficial. So a hypothesis is formed and tested, because that’s how science works. Her results were counter intuitive to her hypothesis, which is the beauty of science.. the results don’t depend on what you “believe”.

The short 5 minute section that I asked you to listen to does mention a piece of equipment used to monitor photosynthesis in real time. However, as she explains, below a certain threshold (200 umol), leaves are not photosynthesizing efficiently. This level, is easily identified using a standard light meter like the one you’re using.

In practice, I wouldn’t run around with my meter specifically checking if every leaf is above the 200 mark. Instead you take a few measurements and realize where that average sweet spot is in your canopy. Anything below that should be stripped.

Everyone’s grow is different. I’m not here to convince anyone whether they should strip or not. I’m just sharing an intelligent source of information, what you choose to do with it is up to you.
 

Switcher56

Comfortably numb!
You couldn’t have listened very well. She is definitely working on cannabis, the entire podcast is on what her research on cannabis has showed her.. it includes things like nutrients, lighting, deleafing and curing. I would like to point out that she approaches the “lollipopping” method with skepticism, because as an agricultural scientist it doesn’t seem beneficial. So a hypothesis is formed and tested, because that’s how science works. Her results were counter intuitive to her hypothesis, which is the beauty of science.. the results don’t depend on what you “believe”.

The short 5 minute section that I asked you to listen to does mention a piece of equipment used to monitor photosynthesis in real time. However, as she explains, below a certain threshold (200 umol), leaves are not photosynthesizing efficiently. This level, is easily identified using a standard light meter like the one you’re using.

In practice, I wouldn’t run around with my meter specifically checking if every leaf is above the 200 mark. Instead you take a few measurements and realize where that average sweet spot is in your canopy. Anything below that should be stripped.

Everyone’s grow is different. I’m not here to convince anyone whether they should strip or not. I’m just sharing an intelligent source of information, what you choose to do with it is up to you.
I will present the following analogy, why I manifold.

The 1st time I saw it, I was flabbergasted. A light came on and, it immediately came to me on a mechanical level.

The water manifold in most modern houses is 3/4" pipe, with 1/2"take offs to individual taps/shutoffs. If someone opens a tap, there will be a subsequent decease in both pressure and volume in the manifold. Because of the carrying capacity of the 3/4" pipe, this will ensure that regardless how many outlets are open, the flow will remain unchanged. OTOH, there will be a slight drop in pressure in the manifold. The water pressure is quickly brought back to constant by the house PRV, and a "new" balance is achieved.

Let's turn this around and apply it to growing cannabis. The manifold being the stalk. To grow 8 tops/colas requires a 6 week vegging period. I vegged for 8 weeks. I don't start counting "veg time" until I have 4 serrated leaves. Before that, to me, they are seedlings. Some folks count their weeks from when the bean is planted.

More than 8 tops isn't recommended for indoor growing. That being said, you can have as many as you want outdoors (so they say). In order to achieve such a feat, outdoor plants will need to be started sooner than normal indoors, as you control the photo period. Outdoors mother nature is in charge as to when 12/12 happens. It goes without saying that you will need a larger pot, to be able to carry the extra colas. Therefore, just quick and dirty math, if you plan on doing 16 use a 10gal pot vice a 5, providing you can fit 4x10gal pots in your tent. 16 is a known std for outdoors, but as many as 32 have been developed successfully, depending on the region. Going from 8 to 32 only requires an extra 1.5 weeks because, you are only topping each of their tops and denuding below. Once done, you can then place her outdoors, or allowed to recuperate indoors. We are not allowed to grow outdoors here, so I didn't pay much attention in the intricacies of growing manifolds for outdoor growing.

Caveat: Yes it stresses the plant for a couple of days, but if you have a healthy properly fed plant, she doesn't miss a beat, so to speak. The fan leaves will grow in to large solar panel, that remain on the plant until you cut the new tops after the 4th node once again, creating 2 new tops.

So how does this all work?

You top off after the 4th node and denude the stalk all the way back from the fan leaves with the carrying the 2 new buds, after the removal of the apical bud. The plant is left to rest and grow until the 2 new tops have 5 nodes, and you once again chop at the 4th node, once again stripping all the way back. Eventually you will have a totally denude manifold, with only 8 "take offs". The only place we want the energy going is to the production of flowers.

Because the manifold forms a circle, the manifold branches (take offs) are secured to a portion of a tomato cage, anything (fan leaves) growing inward are not an issue, unless they interfere with growing buds (shadowing). Then those are "judiciously" removed through out the flowering period. I only use the 1st ring of the tomato cages (8" dia), or else I can't get my light height where I want/need it if the cages are 36". There is a "gizmo" that is simply a circle with 3 individual legs. They are normally 12" in dia, too large for attaching the manifold.

I stake the colas with 18"--->24" bamboo stakes, the latter as needed once my light has reached 36". I go with PAR value. I maintain 850-900 umols at the canopy which, usually comes to 12" above the canopy.

All I know is that manifolding/mainlining has double my yield and, that's all that matters to me. I grow more than I consume, and that is OK too. It means I don't have to grow perpetually. AAMOF, I only grow twice in a year, forgoing the summer here as it is simply not cost effective to do so with our summer climate here. I don't churn and burn.

Getting 2.5oz per plant (projected yield for this run, my previous run yielded 9.2 oz) costs me roughly $250 CAD (power). Not a bad investment considering a $1.75K ($175/oz) return that is far superior than the legally sold stuff here.

I always state, this is what works for me, in my environment and growing conditions. Your mileage may vary. Therefore, I personally don't give a damn what some yahoo may think. I am continuously learning here, but there is a lot of BS that can be found as well.

I carry out my own research on topics of interests, to improve what I am doing. Until I find some new "fandangle" thing/technique/method, I will continue doing the tried and true, in what "I" am doing, under my growing conditions and environment. YMMV! :tiphat:
 

Switcher56

Comfortably numb!
Curent run Pt1

Curent run Pt1

IMHO it all depends on what growing technique you are using. I denude the manifold of all vegetative matter below the 8 main tops. Then as required I will remove those shadowing bud sites. I grow manifolds exclusively now. Why? I was able to dble production using the technique. I normally don't like to change too many variables between grows because, if you use many, you may not know which variance did what etc... In this instance I also changed my nutrient line from GO to Remo.

My 1st grow is in my sig. I am currently on my 3rd. 2nd week of flower (12 days) from an 8 week veg.

View Image
Dutch Treat 12 days in flower.

View Image
Blue Dream 12 days in flower

This current grow 1st time for Bd but not for Dt. I had to use some radical lst on the tops compared to previous runs (redirection clearly seen in pics).

Caveat
This works for me in my environment under my growing conditions.

I will present the following analogy, why I manifold.

The 1st time I saw it, I was flabbergasted. A light came on and, it immediately came to me on a mechanical level.

The water manifold in most modern houses is 3/4" pipe, with 1/2"take offs to individual taps/shutoffs. If someone opens a tap, there will be a subsequent decease in both pressure and volume in the manifold. Because of the carrying capacity of the 3/4" pipe, this will ensure that regardless how many outlets are open, the flow will remain unchanged. OTOH, there will be a slight drop in pressure in the manifold. The water pressure is quickly brought back to constant by the house PRV, and a "new" balance is achieved.

Let's turn this around and apply it to growing cannabis. The manifold being the stalk. To grow 8 tops/colas requires a 6 week vegging period. I vegged for 8 weeks. I don't start counting "veg time" until I have 4 serrated leaves. Before that, to me, they are seedlings. Some folks count their weeks from when the bean is planted.

More than 8 tops isn't recommended for indoor growing. That being said, you can have as many as you want outdoors (so they say). In order to achieve such a feat, outdoor plants will need to be started sooner than normal indoors, as you control the photo period. Outdoors mother nature is in charge as to when 12/12 happens. It goes without saying that you will need a larger pot, to be able to carry the extra colas. Therefore, just quick and dirty math, if you plan on doing 16 use a 10gal pot vice a 5, providing you can fit 4x10gal pots in your tent. 16 is a known std for outdoors, but as many as 32 have been developed successfully, depending on the region. Going from 8 to 32 only requires an extra 1.5 weeks because, you are only topping each of their tops and denuding below. Once done, you can then place her outdoors, or allowed to recuperate indoors. We are not allowed to grow outdoors here, so I didn't pay much attention in the intricacies of growing manifolds for outdoor growing.

Caveat: Yes it stresses the plant for a couple of days, but if you have a healthy properly fed plant, she doesn't miss a beat, so to speak. The fan leaves will grow in to large solar panel, that remain on the plant until you cut the new tops after the 4th node once again, creating 2 new tops.

So how does this all work?

You top off after the 4th node and denude the stalk all the way back from the fan leaves with the carrying the 2 new buds, after the removal of the apical bud. The plant is left to rest and grow until the 2 new tops have 5 nodes, and you once again chop at the 4th node, once again stripping all the way back. Eventually you will have a totally denude manifold, with only 8 "take offs". The only place we want the energy going is to the production of flowers.

Because the manifold forms a circle, the manifold branches (take offs) are secured to a portion of a tomato cage, anything (fan leaves) growing inward are not an issue, unless they interfere with growing buds (shadowing). Then those are "judiciously" removed through out the flowering period. I only use the 1st ring of the tomato cages (8" dia), or else I can't get my light height where I want/need it if the cages are 36". There is a "gizmo" that is simply a circle with 3 individual legs. They are normally 12" in dia, too large for attaching the manifold.

I stake the colas with 18"--->24" bamboo stakes, the latter as needed once my light has reached 36". I go with PAR value. I maintain 850-900 umols at the canopy which, usually comes to 12" above the canopy.

All I know is that manifolding/mainlining has double my yield and, that's all that matters to me. I grow more than I consume, and that is OK too. It means I don't have to grow perpetually. AAMOF, I only grow twice in a year, forgoing the summer here as it is simply not cost effective to do so with our summer climate here. I don't churn and burn.

Getting 2.5oz per plant (projected yield for this run, my previous run yielded 9.2 oz) costs me roughly $250 CAD (power). Not a bad investment considering a $1.75K ($175/oz) return that is far superior than the legally sold stuff here.

I always state, this is what works for me, in my environment and growing conditions. Your mileage may vary. Therefore, I personally don't give a damn what some yahoo may think. I am continuously learning here, but there is a lot of BS that can be found as well.

I carry out my own research on topics of interests, to improve what I am doing. Until I find some new "fandangle" thing/technique/method, I will continue doing the tried and true, in what "I" am doing, under my growing conditions and environment. YMMV! :tiphat:

This is what my tent presently looks like, starting my 5th week of flower. As previously stated it all depends what you are doing, in your environment. This works for me... Is it useful for someone else, it could be :)

picture.php

The girl at the far left is a Blue Dream that is 2 weeks behind the others. I can normally sprout a bean in a week, I had 2 fail. That is the 3rd bean. BTW, I had another strain from the same breeder/seed seller that also had a louzy germination rate. I rotate my plant position in relation to the tent and each other daily clockwise. Current intensity 800 umols.

Currently
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Dutch Treat commencing 5th week flower, of a 10 week cycle. They are stacking up nicely.
 

Switcher56

Comfortably numb!
Current run Pt2

Current run Pt2

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Blue Dream

Before & after...
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This is what I do and, what works for me to see to my needs. YMMV :tiphat:
 

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