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To defoliate or, not to defoliate...
- Thread starter Teh_Baker
- Start date
Teh_Baker
Active member
So rather than just showing pics of the overall plant, this time i have a node spacing comparison. First is a Control Mazar, that hasnt been defoliated at all.
And second the one i have been meticulously plucking leaves that shade nodes. You can see that this plucked plant is noticeably more compact on this same branch.
Seems that there may be something to this "defoliation" thing...
And second the one i have been meticulously plucking leaves that shade nodes. You can see that this plucked plant is noticeably more compact on this same branch.
Seems that there may be something to this "defoliation" thing...
Interesting... It certainly seems like the defoilated Mazar has tighter node spacing. I understand different circumstances require different approaches and it is interesting because for me, I would prefer the controll's structure. I want the outer shell to be as big as possible while topping to ensure the shell is completely full of bud sites. But with a limited grow area where you dont have 20 feet or more on centers, and you want NO larf, I think you may be on to something... Good luck with the rest of your season
Will you try this with different varieties? Also will you continue into a certain time in flower to help with the stretching as well and flower development? I am curious if you would be able to speed up ripening somewhat with this.
Teh_Baker
Active member
Hooddro and Limeygreen,
Thanks for stopping by. I appreciate the intrest that you show.
Hooddro, it sure would be nice to have plants 20' on centers! I do have those dreams and the space, but security and capital are always issues. I am going to work toward that soon enough. At least 10' on center, then size wont be such an issue. Forgive me, i dont know what larf is... in the past i have topped selectively to get those perfect bushes, but when 1 plants is touching another, gardening becomes a nightmare!
Limeygreen, i wont be testing any other strains this season. I picked the Mazar because of her reputation of being a giant. I figured if i could control her, then i should be able to control others. I will be continuing all through flowering, but only to illuminate shaded buds. I am by no means stripping all the leaves off. And i do believe this will help to quicken the ripening process. With more available sunlight, i hypothesize about a week shorter flower than her sisters(the other Mazar). Stick around and see what happens!
Thanks for stopping by. I appreciate the intrest that you show.
Hooddro, it sure would be nice to have plants 20' on centers! I do have those dreams and the space, but security and capital are always issues. I am going to work toward that soon enough. At least 10' on center, then size wont be such an issue. Forgive me, i dont know what larf is... in the past i have topped selectively to get those perfect bushes, but when 1 plants is touching another, gardening becomes a nightmare!
Limeygreen, i wont be testing any other strains this season. I picked the Mazar because of her reputation of being a giant. I figured if i could control her, then i should be able to control others. I will be continuing all through flowering, but only to illuminate shaded buds. I am by no means stripping all the leaves off. And i do believe this will help to quicken the ripening process. With more available sunlight, i hypothesize about a week shorter flower than her sisters(the other Mazar). Stick around and see what happens!
larf/duff. hash or kief material for sure.
Triplemfarms
Member
I'm all for defoliation, drives growth upwards, keeps the fungi at bay, gives less larf and put that plant power toward dense tops!
Cool experiment. I'm cautiously skeptical because I have studied energy use in plants in college. The energy that is used to drive that growing point comes from the leaf that was just taken off. Higher plant energy likely produces more vigorous growth and resources for the plant to fight disease and stress. Light to the budsite/node I think is not as important as light being absorbed by the leaf near the budsite. It doesn't hurt to experiment.
I know I have no hesitation pulling off diseased leaves mid season. I only remove as much as I have to, sometimes only removing one or 2 leaflets if possible from a leaf. Air circulation is important but that can be improved by spacing, site selection, and pruning.
Looking forward to seeing the results come in. Just wanted to give a word of caution. Its stressful enough for the plants with the hot weather and bugs.... The plants need to shade the soil to conserve moisture and keep weeds down... What a wonderful spot to take a bread, under the shade of the cannabis tree...
I know I have no hesitation pulling off diseased leaves mid season. I only remove as much as I have to, sometimes only removing one or 2 leaflets if possible from a leaf. Air circulation is important but that can be improved by spacing, site selection, and pruning.
Looking forward to seeing the results come in. Just wanted to give a word of caution. Its stressful enough for the plants with the hot weather and bugs.... The plants need to shade the soil to conserve moisture and keep weeds down... What a wonderful spot to take a bread, under the shade of the cannabis tree...
Teh_Baker
Active member
Cool experiment. I'm cautiously skeptical because I have studied energy use in plants in college. The energy that is used to drive that growing point comes from the leaf that was just taken off. Higher plant energy likely produces more vigorous growth and resources for the plant to fight disease and stress. Light to the budsite/node I think is not as important as light being absorbed by the leaf near the budsite. It doesn't hurt to experiment.
I know I have no hesitation pulling off diseased leaves mid season. I only remove as much as I have to, sometimes only removing one or 2 leaflets if possible from a leaf. Air circulation is important but that can be improved by spacing, site selection, and pruning.
View Image
Looking forward to seeing the results come in. Just wanted to give a word of caution. Its stressful enough for the plants with the hot weather and bugs.... The plants need to shade the soil to conserve moisture and keep weeds down... What a wonderful spot to take a bread, under the shade of the cannabis tree...
Thanks for stopping by pipeline. I have some botany background as well, but each plant species is quite different. And they didnt teach anything about cannabis when i was school age. But i seem to remember thay when you trim several species of plants it turbo charges them into producing even more green growth. I hope to make this new growth more compact.
But like you recognized, it is just an experiment... we shall see how it goes.
Curious as to how it is going? You know that outdoors, at least, each fan leaf is a solar panel which gives the plant energy to grow. If you take the lowers off like that, the plant will be stunted, as you have witnessed. Yes, the nodes may be tighter on the defoliated plant, but that is because the plant is receiving less overall energy and therefore cannot grow as fast as the plant with more solar panels (leaves). Less growth equals less spacing on the nodes.
At least on outdoor plants, it should nearly catch (but not all the way) at some point to the other Mazar if you don't keep taking away the energy factories of the plant.
Nice little plot by the way! Put some mulch down too.... Good times ahead!
At least on outdoor plants, it should nearly catch (but not all the way) at some point to the other Mazar if you don't keep taking away the energy factories of the plant.
Nice little plot by the way! Put some mulch down too.... Good times ahead!
Teh_Baker
Active member
HHill, It is still going well i would say. Thanks for your interest into this topic.
Wouldnt you say that your indoor leaves are solar panels as well? They still do the same thing. They allow chlorophyll to do its job. But with light intensity so much lower indoor, i would say the leaves are much more important indoors.
I am still leaving plenty of leaves on the plant. I am just selectively moving the ones that shade nodes. And i wouldnt say the plant is "stunted" at all. "Stunted" implies that she is not growing as fast as her sisters, when in fact she has the same number of nodes as her sisters. They are just more closely spaced(the most interesting aspect) than the control Mazar. I suppose the only way to find out for sure if its lack of energy due to leaf removal would be to grow 4 plants at least. Half under shade cloth, and half under the sun. And half of each would be control. Thats just going too far.
Wouldnt you say that your indoor leaves are solar panels as well? They still do the same thing. They allow chlorophyll to do its job. But with light intensity so much lower indoor, i would say the leaves are much more important indoors.
I am still leaving plenty of leaves on the plant. I am just selectively moving the ones that shade nodes. And i wouldnt say the plant is "stunted" at all. "Stunted" implies that she is not growing as fast as her sisters, when in fact she has the same number of nodes as her sisters. They are just more closely spaced(the most interesting aspect) than the control Mazar. I suppose the only way to find out for sure if its lack of energy due to leaf removal would be to grow 4 plants at least. Half under shade cloth, and half under the sun. And half of each would be control. Thats just going too far.
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G
If you think about it, the outdoor light is just as strong at the top of a plant as at the bottom of a plant. This is because the light source (sun) is about 93 million miles away. Indoors, the light is much less intense the further from the light the leaves (solar panels) are.
There is something called the Inverse Square Law, look it up. It states that light falls off at the inverse of the square. Meaning, if the indoor light is 1 foot from the tops of the plants, then 2 feet below will be 25% of the light available to the top, 3 feet will be far less.
Photosynthesis, or energy production, occurs mostly where the action is (the most of the available light energy). Look it up.
Therefore, indoors pruning the bottoms will enhance stronger growth at the top, whereas outdoors you will just slow growth of the overall plant, thus reducing internode spacing and such.
Also, soil has an important role in how fast a plant grows, especially an annual like cannabis, and works in tandem with photosynthesis to create growth.
I digress, I'm sure your plants are all doing great! I'm just throwing out some stuff I've learned over the past 25 years of growing this wonderful plant, along with some some science. It's best to prune inner budsites at the onset of flowers, leave the leaves.
Remember, the fan leaves also act as a storage for nutrients, so during flowering, the plant will move needed nutrients from the fan leaves to the flowering buds as needed.
If you think about it, the outdoor light is just as strong at the top of a plant as at the bottom of a plant. This is because the light source (sun) is about 93 million miles away. Indoors, the light is much less intense the further from the light the leaves (solar panels) are.
There is something called the Inverse Square Law, look it up. It states that light falls off at the inverse of the square. Meaning, if the indoor light is 1 foot from the tops of the plants, then 2 feet below will be 25% of the light available to the top, 3 feet will be far less.
Photosynthesis, or energy production, occurs mostly where the action is (the most of the available light energy). Look it up.
Therefore, indoors pruning the bottoms will enhance stronger growth at the top, whereas outdoors you will just slow growth of the overall plant, thus reducing internode spacing and such.
Also, soil has an important role in how fast a plant grows, especially an annual like cannabis, and works in tandem with photosynthesis to create growth.
I digress, I'm sure your plants are all doing great! I'm just throwing out some stuff I've learned over the past 25 years of growing this wonderful plant, along with some some science. It's best to prune inner budsites at the onset of flowers, leave the leaves.
Remember, the fan leaves also act as a storage for nutrients, so during flowering, the plant will move needed nutrients from the fan leaves to the flowering buds as needed.
Oh lord thats a great idear! Pecan Pie!
Teh_Baker
Active member
Well, i made it back. Away for work, stayed an extra week this time. Thats why it was twice as long between updates this time.
So now that I'm back, first i want to say Happy 4th of July! I also want to say that the girls are doing great. The test subject is doing awesome also. She is half the size of her sisters. If she pulls as much weight as her sisters then there is definitely something to this experiment! Tomorrow im going to measure there meristems of controls and the test plant and count nodes. That will prove whether the plant its just growing slower or more compact.
Test Mazar
Control Mazar
I should start to see signs of flowering any day now...
So now that I'm back, first i want to say Happy 4th of July! I also want to say that the girls are doing great. The test subject is doing awesome also. She is half the size of her sisters. If she pulls as much weight as her sisters then there is definitely something to this experiment! Tomorrow im going to measure there meristems of controls and the test plant and count nodes. That will prove whether the plant its just growing slower or more compact.
Test Mazar
Control Mazar
I should start to see signs of flowering any day now...
Teh_Baker
Active member
So i made some measurements and im sure a lot of people here are gonna pop off with the "I told you so" attitude.
Of the 5 control Mazar they range from 20-24 nodes on the main stem. The test Mazar only has 18. However, the test Mazar has a much more uniform shape. It is also half the height of her sisters, and only has 2 fewer nodes! I would say thats a win! It seems to me that she in fact is growing more compact, not just slower.
Of course im going to finish the season with them, and will compare dry weights. But for now, im happy with the results.
Of the 5 control Mazar they range from 20-24 nodes on the main stem. The test Mazar only has 18. However, the test Mazar has a much more uniform shape. It is also half the height of her sisters, and only has 2 fewer nodes! I would say thats a win! It seems to me that she in fact is growing more compact, not just slower.
Of course im going to finish the season with them, and will compare dry weights. But for now, im happy with the results.
Teh_Baker
Active member
Just about what i consider to be the halfway point now, the girls should be flowering any day now... they were planted in april and will hopefully be done in october. The experiment is still well underway.
this lil gal is still showing to be very healthy and happy. She is still about half the size of her sisters, but has a seemingly unending supply of budsites! I think i may be very pleasantly surprised at season's end.
Here are 2 Mazar sisters, that are over 5ft tall. They too will make me very happy at seasons end, but i see a lot more work with these plants...
Here are 2 Mazar sisters, that are over 5ft tall. They too will make me very happy at seasons end, but i see a lot more work with these plants...
Defoliation is not necessary outdoors brother. The sun can penetrate an outdoor canopy.
I typically strip nodes on the bottom 30-40% of each branch. Fans stay in place.
Indoors its a whole different story as light barely penetrates 1ft into a thick canopy which
=larf down low.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=343303&page=10
I typically strip nodes on the bottom 30-40% of each branch. Fans stay in place.
Indoors its a whole different story as light barely penetrates 1ft into a thick canopy which
=larf down low.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=343303&page=10
