The VolksLED - The People's DIY Fixture

[rives]

Jonesing for an update

Ok, PF - here you go!

I swapped out all but two of the 660nm leds for cool white, and rearranged the circuitry so that each end functions independently rather than trying to keep each circuit evenly distributed over the full length of the fixture. Each driver now has (3) cool whites & (1) red led, total wattage at the plug is @ 104 watts.

It seems to be working well. These plants were transplanted from beer cups into 3 gallon smart pots 18 days ago. I started trying to LST them last night, finally said the hell with it and slipped the screen in (It is roughly 30" x 30"). I generally like to LST for a while before using the screen in order to keep better access, but it was turning out to be more work than I wanted for what looks like a very short transition period! I'm surprised at how well the coverage seems to be working over the whole area from a pretty narrow origin. Maybe one more.......

And here is 28 days of veg time under it -

Thanks for the kind words, Heady!

 

[medmaker420]

awesome diy led light!

can't wait to watch this grow progress

 

[tenthirty]

Rives,

So you are covering a 30x30 area with 102 watts of light. Wow!!
With the Pro Grows I'm running a 260 and a 180 0ver a 3x3 table and that does not provide enough coverage and it's 400 watts of leds.

My questions are:

1) Are the cree XM-L and other top quality leds that much more efficient?

2) If I were to build a panel, say 24" long to cover a 3 foot length of my table, what would you recommend for diodes be, using cree XM-Ls as a base.

This is for flower.

 

[rives]

tenthirty, this fixture is only being used for vegging, so the required light levels aren't real high. I am pretty happy with the results so far, though! I will be swapping over to my hybrid fixture for flowering, and it is currently tuned to right around 410 watts total.

I can't really give you any input on the Cree components because I've never used them, but yes, I think that there is a huge difference between high-quality LEDs and the Chinese knock-offs.

Again, I can't really help with your DIY questions because of my lack of experience with the Crees - perhaps Pet Flora can jump in here, I think he is an advocate of those components. However, if you want to cover 3', I would go with a longer fixture than 24" - perhaps 30", anyway. For a flowering spectrum, I have been very happy with my hybrid fixture's performance, so roughly approximating it should work well. The Cree warm whites would be a good substitute for the PL-Ls that I used, with a pretty fair portion of 660nm chips to fill out the flowering needs.

 

[tenthirty]

So, based on what you are saying, 30-32" long and maybe 16-18 10 watt diodes drawing about 100 watts to cover a 1'x3' patch? One 660 red for each 3 whites is what I am thinking.

 

[PetFlora]

Thanks rives, but unfortunately I have no first hand experience. However, I follow a lot of LED threads and have seen others jumping on the Neutral White bandwagon and getting exciting results, so far just in veg, but no one has gotten to flower yet. But the SDGs tell the story, it's just that people have been programmed into R/B and it's difficult for them to see a better way

 

[rives]

So, based on what you are saying, 30-32" long and maybe 16-18 10 watt diodes drawing about 100 watts to cover a 1'x3' patch? One 660 red for each 3 whites is what I am thinking.

I think that your dimensions are better, and the led count looks good. Your wattage per square foot is at the low end of what is recommended for LEDs. Personally, I would want more 660nm red than that, but I don't think that anybody really knows the proper ratio at this point. With my hybrid fixture, I am running very close to 50/50 between the PL-L lamps and the Osram 660nm reds based on power consumption. It works well for me, but fewer reds and more white might even work better.

 

[vukman]

nice!!!!!!!!!!! Just in addition to what is being said about the white......I would think that the HID's are rated by their K factor so I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to LED's. PetFlora said it all when he said that everyone in the LED market is tuned into the blue and red spectrum and totally forgetting that a combination of the spectrum has served us well since.......since...well, just take a look at the sun.......so yeah...it's worth looking into a full spectrum LED comprised of just white light.
Now whether it should be 6000k,4500k,3000k,,etc,,,,,,,,that is the secret now, isn't it...

vukman

 

[tenthirty]

Thanks rives, but unfortunately I have no first hand experience. However, I follow a lot of LED threads and have seen others jumping on the Neutral White bandwagon and getting exciting results, so far just in veg, but no one has gotten to flower yet. But the SDGs tell the story, it's just that people have been programmed into R/B and are difficult to see a better way

@PetFlora Thanks, It looks like I can be the guinea pig. The light curve looks really good to me, with the addition of the 660's, but the ratio is the real question. Where is Knna when you need him.

I think that your dimensions are better, and the led count looks good. Your wattage per square foot is at the low end of what is recommended for LEDs. Personally, I would want more 660nm red than that, but I don't think that anybody really knows the proper ratio at this point. With my hybrid fixture, I am running very close to 50/50 between the PL-L lamps and the Osram 660nm reds based on power consumption. It works well for me, but fewer reds and more white might even work better.

@Rives Thank you, At the moment I have a Pro Grow 180 and 260 kinda covering a 3x3 tray, but I do have a 600 w HPS over another tray, right next to the leds so that does make a difference.
The PG 260 is 23" long and that barely covers the 3' so the heatsink will be between 30 and 32" long. Well, longer means more diodes. ;-)

nice!!!!!!!!!!! Just in addition to what is being said about the white......I would think that the HID's are rated by their K factor so I don't see why the same wouldn't apply to LED's. PetFlora said it all when he said that everyone in the LED market is tuned into the blue and red spectrum and totally forgetting that a combination of the spectrum has served us well since.......since...well, just take a look at the sun.......so yeah...it's worth looking into a full spectrum LED comprised of just white light.
Now whether it should be 6000k,4500k,3000k,,etc,,,,,,,, that is the secret now, isn't it...

@Vukman, Now you brought up the crux of the matter. Why not mix all 3 versions of white. From a power supply standpoint, it doesn't care. So they all could be on the same string. If you pull up the spec sheet of the XM-L diodes and look at the composite of all 3 types, maybe better, but who knows? I'm leaning to a mix of 6000k and 4500k.

Now what really made my ears perk up and actually start to think about engineering one of these, and them maybe build one (I don't procrastinate), The datasheet makes it quite clear that these diodes are getting 100lm/w. This is in HPS territory!! I know lumens......

So in my mind, we're looking at an even spectrum across the board (at least as even as it gets), AKA MH spectrum, but better, with the output efficiency of HPS without the heat.

Now on tuning these things. For the purpose of this discussion, lets look at light like audio. When you tune the sound of your stereo, everything starts out in the center or flat, then you start making adjustments.

What color is an even or flat spectrum of light?

And then which ways do we move the little sliders on our equalizer to make the plant happy.

I wish there was a way to watch the cells crack co2 into carbon and o2.

Please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere in my assumptions.

 

[vukman]

The datasheet makes it quite clear that these diodes are getting 100lm/w. This is in HPS territory!! I know lumens......


Please correct me if I'm wrong anywhere in my assumptions.

There are LED's chips out there that can give better output than 100lm/w.

Also, there is nothing wrong with combining some, any, all, few..etc.etc... of the light waves together. The technology has brought us to that point that almost anything we can think up, we can build.
Have to watch a few technical things such as the voltages and not to overdrive the LED's. Don't want to burn them out within a month. That's why a 500w LED unit only draws 280w-300w. You can't drive a 500w unit at 500w and expect it to last 30,000 hrs.
Be lucky for it to last 1000 hrs pushed at that wattage and those temperatures!
Bah...getting technical here... yeah,,only thing stopping us is our own imagination...well, that and money.....

Good Luck.........always
vukman

 

[rives]

I think that, for cost effectiveness, it is hard to beat combining different types of light to achieve the mix that you want. If you can handle the heat and balance the relative penetrations, there are some interesting options. I am currently setting up a new area that will use (3) of the 315w Philips CDM-T lamps. I found a killer deal on the 3100K versions, and they hit 120 Lm/watt! I'm interested to get a couple of runs on them and then possibly supplement them with some long, bar-style 660nm LEDs.

There is a vendor in the states that is building a "revolutionary" ballast for these lamps that is supposed to deliver a usable lamp life of 50,000 hours, with 95% lumen maintenance at 20,000 hours. Their target market is LED street lighting - with that kind of lamp life, they are directly competitive from a re-lamping standpoint. There is some really interesting stuff going on!

http://gel-usa.com/pdf/CeramaTek_315w.pdf

 

[Aotf]

Never saw the parts list, so I wanted to ask a question about the heatsink. I don't know if you acquired it new or not, but are heatsinks [bought new] the most expensive piece of the setup by themselves, Rives?

I know individual lights and drivers add up quickly too, but I think back to some I scrapped and I am kicking myself, damn! Thanks....

 

[rives]

Never saw the parts list, so I wanted to ask a question about the heatsink. I don't know if you acquired it new or not, but are heatsinks [bought new] the most expensive piece of the setup by themselves, Rives?

I know individual lights and drivers add up quickly too, but I think back to some I scrapped and I am kicking myself, damn! Thanks....

Sorry about the parts list, I could never get the damn thing to format properly. The heatsink for this was about $30 before shipping costs and anodizing (which is really optional). The link below is where I got it, and had them rip the 8.46" sinks into (2) 4.2" ones. They get a flat fee for cutting, which I think was $5. So, the heatsink was actually one of the cheaper components.

http://www.heatsinkusa.com/categories/8.460%22/

 

[medmaker420]

rives

Can't wait to see your flower tests. When I first started researching leds it led to TOO MUCH information, almost to where you end up doing nothing except researching with nm's to go with.

Most anything can seem perfect on paper but until we grow under them and test them we never know. I am diggin the diy panel and can see that electrical gutter being the perfect housing for a vertical led panel that can fit perfectly with a square stand at the bottom.

Have leds on all 4 sides and toss the plants around the sides, it will give you the needed penetration since the leaves will not be exactly flat as you will hit them with side light versus top down and still allow less wattage to be used. Well it sounds and looks good on paper at least.

Are you planning on actually making these into production models, kits etc because they look great especially for anyone wanting to learn how to put together a led light without buying an already manufactured model.

once again, can't wait for flower!

 

[PetFlora]

If I recall what our seemingly long lost compadre (SX***) said, >90% of flowering is handled by 600- 630nms. He is also the one who alerted us to Cree NWs SPG

He seemed well versed, which is why I suggest not much 660 (~10%?) but on a separate circuit/timer for flowering. I employ 2 @ 660 HO T5 bulbs in my 8 bulb (432w) T5 fixture

I doubt one needs a combo of CW/WW/NW, but it couldn't hurt. I just like the KISS method, plus then the only layout issue is where to put the 660s. I'm thinking each end, plus a couple in the middle of each ~20-30" bar

tenthirty, please let me know if you start a thread

I think relatively inexpensive 10w warm white spots are available now. These could go down low (side lighting). If employed, you probably don't need as much top lighting

 

[vukman]

I'm really starting to like this place...

To: PetFlora...

Okay, there is a ton of info on this image and it's geared towards the "Emmerson Effect" as well so lots of lines..

The main thing I'm looking at is in the red wave lengths and where the chlorophyll uptake is the highest. I am not debating nor denying the statement you made about the 630nm light but as you can see by this chart and every other chart I've looked at, the uptake is always in the same area...Around the 660nm light.

I could be way off because I do not have enough knowledge as to what part the Phycocynin plays in flowering or late flowering for that matter.

Anyway, it's another something to ponder and discuss...

Damn, I love this place.......
vukman

 

[rives]

Yes, it always looked to me as though Chlorophyll A peaked right at 660nm and Chlorophyll B at 640nm, and since the red wavelengths carry considerably less power than the blue you need to load up on the red area. It should be interesting to see the results of another run with my hybrid fixture. I've been happily with how well it worked and amazed at how quickly the flowering process started.

Damn, I love this place.......
vukman

Yep!

 

[PetFlora]

I am very familiar with that graph

Again according to SX***,

Here:

Unfortunately the CREE graph overlay of CW/NW/WW is not copying, but here's the accompanying explanation

As one can see, the CREE Neutral White (I call it 'Goldilocks', because it's almost 'just right' ) has a RSPD that still allows nearly ~25% of its total power in the blue range (and plants only really 'need' ~8-10%), and more that 1/3 of which (i.e. the area under the curve) is over ~580nm or so (which has a Photosynthetic RS of over 90%!) - which is much better than even your typical 'Enhanced HPS'.

Couple that with strong white light (green-response chlorophyll extending throughout and deep into leaf structures, with a net effect at or near that of the (mostly) surface-level blue and reds), which also takes care of most of the ~660nm+ you actually need for photomorphogenesis - and you can get by with 630nm reds just fine.

(i.e. 630nm red is ~95% of the PSR of 660nm, AND they currently still have ~20-30% greater radiometric efficiency - as well as being cheaper than the deep reds - so there's more 'bang for the buck'):

I tried this using LED equivalent HO T5s and got best harvest ever, in spite of an Aphid infestation.

The problem for most of us is that we were BSd from the very beginning regarding led tech and what PAR really means pertaining to mmj

 

[PetFlora]

He also discussed how/when to use IR

Alas, another graph that would not copy...

have a bunch of IR LEDs on a separate channel, throw 'em on after lights out to 'encourage' the Pr-->Pfr equilibrium during dark reversion back over to the left side of that equation, and shorten the dark cycle duration required for certain short-day plants as a result:





You know - crazy folks.


Cheers,

-SX

 

[medmaker420]

Right now these are the "peaks" that I will be testing for ( once flowering starts that is ) and I wonder how much the cree NW can help with them. I don't have the graph for the different peak points but I did have that image that vukman posted on my other comp from previous research and I am sure some of these are mentioned as well.

Chlorophyll A
Chlorophyll B
β-Carotene
Lutein
Zeaxanthin
Violaxanthin
Neoxanthin
β-cryptoxanthin

I will be getting this chlorophyll tester as well from atleaf.com to measure different leaf material under the different flowering leds as well which MIGHT be interesting, or boring LOL who really knows until it gets done and the data presents itself.

For most tests I will odds are just send them to a lab for testing because I am pretty sure the Chrom machines are not something a tester would ever want to attempt to afford. Anyone have any suggestions here in Cali to send my buds and leaf to once done or recommendations?

PetFlora I agree that the led information out there is very off especially when we are talking about marijuana. Its cool that tests are starting from various growers like what Rives is doing among many others.

The only issue is the costs associated with all the testing isn't easy for all of us and each test will wind up being a 90 day effort PER light spectrum setup and then to test different setups continues to add to the testing time needed.

I think that even if I located what I would consider the perfect led spectrum available I would still want to test other wavelengths and see how different ones grouped together did as well as which works best with sativas and then indicas as well as vertical and micro setups. I think there could be multiple perfected spectrum setups dependent on your environment, strains and growth type.

ON The IR after dark, I also wondered about that and specifically want to test them with autos to see how they did with the alternating light spectrum at a 18/6 or higher light schedule. With regulars, I can see it making sense to toss it on a timer and see how long is beneficial and at what point ( if any ) negative results start to show themselves.