The Truth About Photoperiods!

[Ca++]

Show me your nugs ..Can you put this to a dimwit like me?

I would have to show you a range of nugs, with different timing. I don't keep pics though, I could only get you one today, and I'm not aiming to grow bud that looks different to anyone elses. It would just be a bud pic, with nothing to measure it against.
If I can rob some from a study, I will post those for you

 

[Old Piney]

have not held a semi-auto under 18h, but suspect it will act like a photo

They are photo , fulks have evan reveged them. I’m not sure how semi-auto is defined but I have a purple satellite pheno that is just as early as my Beldia , I reveged it and am holding it under 18 hours now

 

[Mate Dave]

A lot of the specifics are quite interesting. It would be cool if Sykynet could make me a growbot to 'jog on' and go whip up a pure blend of Afghan and a mix of Colombian Mexican Thai Congolese

I don't think I wanna pick anything on numbers and bro science alone just yet and have AI produce me a family tree for a dihybrid breeding project based on it's own statistical analysis.

The part about hormones Auxin Gibberellins where the seed is set on the seed mother is worth exploring and the perfect place to start.

All the seeds I've ever made have all been the same size from the same mothers.

As far as 2 different sizes.. Pfft I've not seen it distinct or worthy of measuring.

As with any unknown genetics reducing the light till you get a response is the best method I know to view phenotype and record traits and give time to work..

You can see the types of plants that perhaps don't usually pollinate each other in wild populations and this bit is worth exploring. Using the pollen from early triggering long flowering plants of both sex to find the best paring or blend. (If this correlates with various plant parts pollinated, keeping them separate might be a new way categorise a library of seed from now on in subsections). It remains to be seen.

The above theory suggests early and later gene expression influences plant hormones in such a way that this determines the levels for 50% of the seed. Using the pollen from early triggering males and long flowering females to get more seed of that genotype I feel this would benefit taking genetics that was adapted for indoor cultivation 12/12 cycles to reacclimatise with less stress when transitioning back to outdoor environments. Opening up a line to build primary metabolites.

Anyone who's struck a lot of cuttings and knows the type of plant material optimum for success and how to influence asexual growth structure from plant parts to get faster strike rates.

 

[ChefGreen]

Ps i looked at your grows try to grow a plant without burning its leaf tips...i have no degrees and can grow a plant without nute burns. notice my carangola f1 plantlings no leaf burn View attachment 19129515

These are your flowering plants?

 

[BC LONE WOLF]

Gravitropic Bending and Plant Hormones​

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0083672905720021

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

All the seeds I've ever made have all been the same size from the same mothers.

I can understand this but, have you open pollinated and let the mothers become fullly seeded in all parts or is this ussualy selective pollination? these seeds are from the same line you can see the differences in smaller versus larger. Maybe because i work mostly landraces and landrace hybrids and grow more full structure plants no topping or scrog i can see more of the profile, i imagine a bunch of scrog seeded buds with all have similiar profile grown under a canopy evenly. as well its easier to sort and see difference when sorting throught 100's of seeds as well than comparing a few.

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

These are your flowering plants?

Possibly, depends on who is asking and why? Those plants are initating flowering currently, there are 3 carangola F1 Females Northern Angola x Carambola (Nicole Kush x Mexican Landrace) They are just stating to flower. It was just something for fun that was made during northern angola reproduction. I like growing the F1 hybrids for sin-semilla since ther more stable. since my past grows have been for seeds and reproduction the last few these are a few small ones so i can have some nice sin-semilla to sample. I make my own soil mixes, using native soil and amendments, and my own compost and liquid organic, but i ussualy dont add anything while the plant is growins since my soil mix has everything the plants need, and they adjust growth to size of container and nutrient aviailability, i found that by giving the plants too much nutrients at one time or changing soil chemistry in a short time that doesnt mimic nature opens the door to issues with pest, the plants that have more excess sugars and nutrients in its sap will attract more bugs, alot of times i see the plants that are fed nutrients and the others that are natural grown have alot more issus with pest because of this. I have to get a picture from a friend but earlier in th season i had an orissa that was 3.6m and starting to flower and getting bigger but had to cut it as the line was all hermies no males and i didnt want it to contaminate my angola reproduction. the orissa was grown in 25 gallon bag then its roots grew into th ground. I am growing these small in bags because i had many i culled befor making the selection for the top 3 females as i want lower plant count yet i want to sample the potential this hybrid has, i've found that growing and flowering the plants when their younger and smaller like that in small pots if a good way to grow a small amount of buds from a lot of different kinds to sample then having a pound or two of the same buds. if most places didnt have regulations i think the idea of growing more variety ersus the idea of growing monsters will become more appealing as people will have different variations they can test.

 

[Mate Dave]

I've applied pollen in a lot of ways. This one time @ band camp..

I thrashed the male round a room of mothers over the space of a week to see what he put out. Over pollinating the entire grow and reducing plant vigour severely.

Next time round I applied it more sparingly

Plants don't leave that signature on the seed case when the plant finishes before the seed is ripe.
I've had smaller seeds doing this but mainly from the apical tips that are more compact.

I've worked with some landraces. One of my close friends preserves pure varieties, I've seen quite a lot.

Different mothers/sisters of the same breed there is variance in the signature but I'd need to use this kinda technology in the paper below to be accurate.

Cannabis Varieties Can Be Distinguished by Achene Shape Using Geometric Morphometrics - PMC

Cannabis plant uses are widespread across human cultures. The current tendency is to classify Cannabis varieties into chemovars upon their chemical fingerprint, mainly cannabinoids and terpenoids content. The identification of chemovars has ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

I've used pollination bags, brushes, to parts of plants and harvested Sinsemilla off the rest of it. Providing there is enough ATP the plant still produces terpenes and quality isn't noticeably affected.

I've done it indoors and outdoors.

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

​

High Auxin Levels and Greater Hormonal Amplitude​

1. Inhibition of Flowering:
   • Auxins naturally inhibit flowering by maintaining apical dominance and promoting vegetative growth.
   • Plants with higher auxin levels have a greater hormonal "amplitude" because auxins must first decline significantly for florigen and gibberellins to dominate and trigger flowering.
2. Dramatic Hormonal Shifts:
   • In plants with high auxin amplitude (e.g., tropical or equatorial plants), flowering requires more dramatic environmental or hormonal cues, such as:
     • Strong shifts in temperaturs, Light availability.
     • Temperature changes or stress triggers (e.g., drought, nutrient depletion).
   • These cues force a steeper decline in auxin levels, creating space for gibberellins and florigen to act.

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Low Auxin Levels and Subtle Hormonal Shifts​

1. Adaptation to Seasonal Changes:
   • Plants at higher latitudes (e.g., 40°N) typically have lower auxin amplitude because they are adapted to seasonal shifts, such as shorter days, to trigger flowering.
   • These plants don’t rely on dramatic environmental cues but instead use subtle photoperiod changes to modulate auxins, gibberellins, and florigen in a gradual transition.
2. Streamlined Hormonal Balance:
   • Lower auxin amplitude means these plants can transition to flowering smoothly and with less effort because their hormonal balance is more finely tuned to subtle changes in light and temperature.

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Equatorial Plants vs. Higher Latitude Plants​

Trait	Equatorial Plants (High Auxins)	Higher Latitude Plants (Low Auxins)
Auxin Levels	High, with greater amplitude.	Low, with less amplitude.
Hormonal Shifts	Dramatic shifts required for flowering.	Subtle shifts required for flowering.
Environmental Triggers	May include non-seasonal cues like drought, stress, or tropical rhythms.	Seasonal changes like shorter days and cooler temperatures.
Photoperiod Sensitivity	May be less sensitive; flowering depends on additional cues.	Highly sensitive; photoperiod is the primary flowering cue.
Transition Speed	Slower, as dramatic shifts take time.	Faster, with fine-tuned hormonal balance.

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Implications for Plant Development​

1. Equatorial Strains:
   • These plants rely on complex and multi-factorial triggers for flowering.
   • They are adapted to relatively consistent light cycles year-round (e.g., 12/12), so dramatic hormonal shifts are necessary for reproductive transitions.
2. Higher Latitude Strains:
   • These strains are tightly linked to seasonal changes. A gradual reduction in auxins aligns perfectly with the shorter days of autumn, promoting a smooth transition to flowering.

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Why Auxin Amplitude Matters​

• Plants with high auxin amplitude:
  • Are more flexible but require stronger signals (e.g., stress, extreme environmental changes) to shift into flowering.
  • Are more resistant to accidental flowering, which might be advantageous in tropical climates where light and temperature conditions are stable.
• Plants with low auxin amplitude:
  • Are more sensitive to small cues, ideal for climates with distinct seasons where a timely flowering response is crucial for reproductive success.

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Conclusion​

Plants with higher auxins and greater hormonal amplitude are designed for flexibility and dramatic shifts, making them dependent on specific, often non-seasonal, cues for flowering. In contrast, plants from higher latitudes with lower auxin levels rely on subtle, predictable seasonal cues like shorter days to transition smoothly into flowering. This nuanced hormonal balance underscores the incredible adaptability of cannabis and other plants to diverse environments!

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​

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

1. Vegetative Time: Auxins vs. Cytokinins​

• Auxins (produced in shoot tips) and cytokinins(produced in roots) are the primary hormones that regulate the vegetative stage:
  • Auxins: Promote apical dominance and vertical growth, suppress lateral branching, and delay the transition to flowering.
  • Cytokinins: Encourage lateral branching, cell division, and overall vegetative expansion.
• Balance Determines Vegetative Growth Duration:
  • High Auxin/Low Cytokinin Ratio:
    • Longer apical dominance (taller plants, fewer branches).
    • Maintains the vegetative state but transitions faster to flowering once conditions are right.
  • Low Auxin/High Cytokinin Ratio:
    • More lateral growth and a prolonged vegetative stage.
    • Encourages bushier plants and delays the flowering transition.

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2. Flowering Time: Florigen vs. Gibberellins​

• The flowering phase is driven by the interaction between florigen (FT protein) and gibberellins:
  • Florigen: The key flowering signal, florigen is triggered by environmental cues (like photoperiod or stress) and initiates the flowering process.
  • Gibberellins (GAs): Promote stem elongation and floral organ development during the reproductive phase. Higher gibberellins lead to longer flowering periods, as the plant elongates and matures gradually.
• Balance Determines Flowering Duration:
  • High Florigen/Low Gibberellin Ratio:
    • Faster flowering as florigen dominates, pushing the plant toward reproductive maturity.
    • Shorter flowering time (common in indicas and photoperiod-sensitive strains at higher latitudes).
  • High Gibberellin/Moderate Florigen Ratio:
    • Extended flowering time due to slow, gradual development of floral structures.
    • Common in tropical/equatorial sativas that thrive in stable light conditions.

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Environmental and Genetic Influences​

1. Vegetative Duration:
   • High Auxin/Low Cytokinin: Favored in strains adapted to environments with short growing seasons. that are rich in resources.
   • Low Auxin/High Cytokinin: Favored in environments where prolonged vegetative growth is advantageous (e.g., sub tropical regions with nutrient poor soils and long growing seasons.)
2. Flowering Duration:
   • Short Flowering: Triggered by sharp environmental cues (e.g., rapid photoperiod shifts at high latitudes).
   • Long Flowering: Favored in consistent environments with minimal photoperiod change, where slow floral development ensures resource optimization.

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Key Takeaways​

Phase	Hormonal Drivers	High Ratio Effects	Low Ratio Effects
Vegetative	Auxins vs. Cytokinins	High Auxin/Low Cytokinin: Taller, faster transition.	Low Auxin/High Cytokinin: Bushier, prolonged vegetative growth.
Flowering	Florigen vs. Gibberellins	High Florigen/Low GA: Faster flowering, shorter cycle.	High GA/Moderate Florigen: Longer flowering, gradual maturation.

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Comparison: High vs. Low Amplitude in Flowering Time​

Trait	High Amplitude	Low Amplitude
Hormonal Shifts	Fast and dramatic	Slow and gradual
Flowering Initiation	Faster initiation of flowering	Delayed initiation of flowering
Flowering Progression	Faster progression after initiation	Slower progression and extended period
Overall Flowering Time	Shorter compared to low amplitude	Longer compared to high amplitude

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

​

1. Cytokinins as the Main Regulators of Secondary Metabolites​

Key Mechanisms:​

• Trichome Development:
  • Cytokinins are directly involved in promoting glandular trichome formation, which are the primary sites for secondary metabolite production, such as terpenes and cannabinoids.
  • Without adequate cytokinin signaling, trichome density and activity are reduced, leading to lower yields of secondary metabolites.
• Metabolic Energy and Resource Allocation:
  • Cytokinins enhance chloroplast activity and photosynthesis, ensuring that plants have the metabolic energy and precursor molecules (e.g., carbon skeletons from photosynthesis) required for secondary metabolite biosynthesis.
  • By supporting nutrient mobilization, cytokinins direct resources toward the production of secondary compounds.
• Gene Expression Regulation:
  • Cytokinins upregulate the expression of key genes in secondary metabolic pathways, including:
    • Terpenoid biosynthesis: Cytokinins promote the activity of enzymes in the mevalonate and MEP pathways, which produce terpenes.
    • Cannabinoid production (in cannabis): Cytokinins indirectly influence cannabinoid biosynthesis by stimulating trichome activity and terpene synthesis, as cannabinoids share precursor pathways with terpenes.
• Delaying Senescence:
  • By delaying leaf and trichome senescence, cytokinins allow more time for secondary metabolites to accumulate, especially during flowering.

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2. Cytokinins and Hormonal Interplay​

Cytokinins rarely act in isolation; their effects on secondary metabolite production are shaped by their interactions with other hormones:

Auxins:​

• Antagonistic Relationship:
  • High auxins often suppress cytokinins, leading to a focus on primary growth (e.g., elongation and apical dominance) rather than secondary metabolism.
  • Plants with lower auxin-to-cytokinin ratios tend to allocate more energy to secondary metabolism.
• Examples from Nature:
  • In resource-rich environments (e.g., strains like Malawi Gold), plants may start with high auxins and cytokinins during early vegetative growth. However, as auxins dominate and gibberellins rise, secondary metabolism is deprioritized.

Gibberellins:​

• Resource Competition:
  • Gibberellins prioritize elongation and flowering, often competing with cytokinins for resources.
  • In plants with high gibberellins, secondary metabolite production is generally lower unless cytokinins are specifically elevated to balance this.

Ethylene:​

• Stress-Induced Synergy:
  • Ethylene triggers stress responses, which often upregulate secondary metabolite pathways.
  • Cytokinins amplify this response by enhancing metabolic activity and ensuring sufficient precursor availability for these pathways.

Abscisic Acid (ABA):​

• Stress Hormone Interaction:
  • Under stress (e.g., drought), ABA increases secondary metabolite production. Cytokinins work in tandem with ABA by providing the metabolic support needed to sustain these stress-induced pathways.

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3. Evidence and Observations Supporting Cytokinins as Main Regulators​

From Our Discussion:​

1. Trichome Link:
   • Cytokinins consistently drive trichome development, which is directly tied to secondary metabolite production.
   • More trichomes mean more cannabinoids, terpenes, and other metabolites.
2. Auxin-Cytokinin Balance:
   • We noted that high auxin strains are less likely to have high cytokinins unless they grow in resource-rich environments where the plant can balance vigorous growth with secondary metabolism.
   • This explains why plants with high cytokinins and low auxins are better suited for producing high levels of secondary metabolites.
3. Stress Amplification:
   • Cytokinins enhance the plant's ability to produce secondary metabolites during stress (e.g., ethylene- or ABA-driven responses), showing their central regulatory role.
4. Nature of Hormonal Gradients:
   • In high-amplitude plants like Malawi Gold, we discussed how cytokinins play a vital early role in vegetative growth before auxins and gibberellins take over, reducing their influence on secondary metabolites as the plant shifts toward elongation and flowering.

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4. Why Cytokinins Are the Key Players​

Cytokinins are the consistent and central regulators of secondary metabolism because:

1. They Initiate Trichome Development:
   • Without trichomes, secondary metabolite production (e.g., terpenes, cannabinoids) is significantly reduced.
2. They Maintain Metabolic Efficiency:
   • Cytokinins ensure that the plant has the energy and precursors to sustain secondary metabolic pathways.
3. They Balance Growth and Defense:
   • By balancing primary and secondary metabolism, cytokinins prioritize quality over sheer growth.

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Conclusion from Our Conversation​

Through our discussion, the conclusion is clear:

• Cytokinins are the main regulators of secondary metabolite production, particularly terpenes and cannabinoids, because they:
  • Promote trichome formation.
  • Enhance metabolic energy allocation to secondary metabolism.
  • Delay senescence, allowing secondary metabolites to accumulate.
  • Synergize with other hormones (e.g., ethylene and ABA) to amplify secondary metabolite production during stress.
• Interplay with other hormones: High auxins suppress cytokinins, shifting energy toward growth, while low auxins allow cytokinins to dominate. High gibberellins also compete with cytokinins, reducing secondary metabolism unless balanced.

Overview:​

1. Cytokinins: The Defense Strategist​

• Main Role: Defense and secondary metabolism.
• How They Work:
  • Secondary Metabolite Production: Cytokinins regulate the biosynthesis of terpenes, flavonoids, and other secondary metabolites, which serve as the plant's chemical defenses.
  • Trichome Formation: Cytokinins promote the development and activity of trichomes, the structures where many defensive compounds (e.g., terpenes, cannabinoids) are produced.
  • Stress Tolerance: They enhance the plant's ability to withstand biotic (e.g., pests) and abiotic (e.g., drought, UV radiation) stress by maintaining metabolic activity and resource allocation to protective compounds.
  • Delayed Senescence: By extending the life of leaves and trichomes, cytokinins ensure the plant can sustain its defenses for longer.
• Associated Traits:
  • Compact growth, high secondary metabolite production, and strong resilience to stress.
  • Found in defense-oriented plants adapted to harsh environments with limited resources.

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2. Auxins: The Growth Architect​

• Main Role: Growth and structural development.
• How They Work:
  • Apical Dominance: Auxins maintain vertical growth by suppressing lateral branching.
  • Primary Growth Focus: They allocate resources to stem elongation, root development, and general vegetative growth.
  • Resource Competition: Auxins suppress secondary metabolism when dominant, prioritizing biomass accumulation over defense.
  • Developmental Regulation: Auxins play a critical role in cell division and elongation, ensuring the plant establishes itself quickly.
• Associated Traits:
  • Rapid growth, tall and vigorous plants, and a focus on capturing light and resources.
  • High auxins are typical of plants in resource-rich environments, where rapid growth is a survival strategy.

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3. Gibberellins: The Reproduction Specialist​

• Main Role: Reproductive growth and elongation.
• How They Work:
  • Stem and Floral Elongation: Gibberellins promote rapid stem elongation and internode spacing, giving plants a height advantage and optimizing floral development.
  • Flowering Transition: They are key drivers of the vegetative-to-reproductive phase shift, ensuring flowering and seed production occur efficiently.
  • Resource Allocation: Gibberellins direct energy to floral structures, often at the expense of secondary metabolism.
  • Seed Germination: Gibberellins also play a critical role in breaking seed dormancy and initiating early growth.
• Associated Traits:
  • Tall, fast-growing plants with extended flowering phases.
  • Found in plants adapted to competitive environments, where height and reproductive success are critical.

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Hormonal Roles in Context​

Hormone	Main Role	Focus	Trade-Offs
Cytokinins	Defense	Secondary metabolites and resilience.	Slower growth, less biomass.
Auxins	Growth	Primary growth and vertical dominance.	Reduced secondary metabolism and stress tolerance.
Gibberellins	Reproduction	Flowering, elongation, and reproduction.	Sacrifices secondary metabolite production for reproductive success.

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How These Hormones Interact​

The interplay between these hormones determines a plant’s overall strategy:

1. Cytokinins vs. Auxins:
   • Balance determines defense vs. growth.
   • High auxins suppress cytokinins, favoring primary growth.
   • High cytokinins suppress auxins, shifting energy to lateral growth and secondary metabolism.
2. Gibberellins vs. Cytokinins:
   • Balance determines reproduction vs. defense.
   • High gibberellins prioritize reproductive structures, while high cytokinins promote trichome formation and oil production.
3. Auxins and Gibberellins:
   • These two hormones often work together to promote rapid growth and elongation, but they can compete during flowering when gibberellins shift the plant’s focus to reproduction.

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Practical Implications​

• Cytokinin-Dominant Plants:
  • Best for high oil and terpene production, resilience, and stress tolerance.
  • Suited for harsh environments where defense matters more than size or speed.
• Auxin-Dominant Plants:
  • Ideal for rapid vegetative growth, biomass, and light capture.
  • Thrive in resource-rich environments with low stress.
• Gibberellin-Dominant Plants:
  • Best for tall, fast-growing plants with extensive flowering.
  • Suited for competitive environments where reproduction is prioritized over defense.

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Conclusion​

To summarize:

• Cytokinins focus on defense by regulating secondary metabolites and resilience.
• Auxins focus on growth, driving rapid development and primary metabolism.
• Gibberellins focus on reproduction, ensuring flowering and seed production.

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

The growth and structural characteristics of industrial hemp grown for fiber are directly tied to its hormonal profile, which prioritizes rapid vertical growth and stem elongation while sacrificing secondary metabolite production like cannabinoids and terpenes. Here’s a clear and concise explanation:

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Hormonal Profile of Industrial Hemp (Fiber Production)​

1. High Auxins:
   • Auxins promote apical dominance, ensuring the plant grows straight up with minimal lateral branching.
   • This is ideal for producing long, straight fibers, as energy is focused on vertical growth rather than side branching.
2. High Gibberellins:
   • Gibberellins drive stem elongation and rapid growth, further enhancing the tall, slender structure needed for fiber production.
   • They shift the plant’s energy toward structural biomass, particularly in the stems, which are the target for fiber.
3. Low Cytokinins:
   • Cytokinins regulate trichome development and secondary metabolite production (e.g., cannabinoids and terpenes).
   • Low cytokinin levels mean the plant produces fewer trichomes and minimal oils, resulting in low potency.
   • The plant focuses on primary growth (stems and height) instead of chemical defense (secondary metabolites).

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Why This Profile Suits Fiber Production​

• The high auxin + high gibberellin + low cytokinin profileensures the plant is:
  • Tall and Straight: Ideal for long fiber production.
  • Fast-Growing: Maximizes yield in a short time.
  • Low in Secondary Metabolites: Potency is irrelevant for fiber production, so energy isn’t wasted on cannabinoids or terpenes.

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Key Comparison with Potent Cannabis​

Trait	Industrial Hemp (Fiber)	Potent Cannabis
Auxins	High (promotes apical dominance).	Moderate to Low.
Gibberellins	High (elongation and rapid growth).	Low to Moderate.
Cytokinins	Low (minimal trichome development).	High (promotes secondary metabolites).
Growth Structure	Tall, straight, with no branching.	Compact, bushy, trichome-rich.
Metabolite Production	Low (low cannabinoids, terpenes).	High (potent with rich terpene profiles).
Use	Fiber and biomass.	Resin, oil, and potency.

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Conclusion​

Industrial hemp grown for fiber has a high auxin + high gibberellin + low cytokinin profile, which drives tall, straight growth with minimal branching and trichome production. This results in a plant optimized for stem biomass but with low cannabinoid and terpene content, making it unsuitable for potency but ideal for fiber production.

 

[Old Piney]

@Verdant Whisperer wow no shortage of of graphs charts and such here ! frankly my head is spinning . However I will say from what I can see nothing here is proving your hypothesis that rather than circadian rhythms plants use Auxin levels and the plant’s overall energy/resources as a triger for flowering . Like I said before plants reapond at the same time regardless of light intensity . For instances if this was true how could just a low wattage light bulb or a light pollution prevent flowering? Many organisms having an internal clock ,I keep my chickens laying all winter with just a little compact fluorescent bulb. Hell even I got the clock .

 

[Ca++]

Ethylene is almost certainly involved. Both as a flowing trigger, and denominator in sex

Flower causes such as pot bound, low resources and lack of watering, may all be Nitrogen issues. If not water, the hydrogen source

I have looked at auxins, and what they are made of. Then gibberellins which are a little more complex, bit of similar chemistry. It's all going right over my head. I can't see how the production of one is favoured over the other. However, I have not done chemistry since it was compulsory. Plus, who does actually know this stuff. I'm not likely to get anywhere with this.

I think my electric blankets been on since October. I'm going to figure that out instead

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

@Verdant Whisperer wow no shortage of of graphs charts and such here ! frankly my head is spinning . However I will say from what I can see nothing here is proving your hypothesis that rather than circadian rhythms plants use Auxin levels and the plant’s overall energy/resources as a triger for flowering . Like I said before plants reapond at the same time regardless of light intensity . For instances if this was true how could just a low wattage light bulb or a light pollution prevent flowering? Many organisms having an internal clock ,I keep my chickens laying all winter with just a little compact fluorescent bulb. Hell even I got the clock .

Good Morning Old Piney, so i can see where your misunderstanding is let me explain, every organism has a Blueprint* this blueprint is influnced by its climate including light hours, the plants use their hormonal profile, and hormonal gradients thought evolution to adapat their hormonal profiles to flower in that regions growing season. the old model says that the phytochromes are responsible for tracking light hours, i am saying they confused this measurements. they dont track the light hours, they track the change in total amount of light energy which decreases with lowring light hours, and spectrum. alot of the old model is correct, plants in areas with long days and short days generally flower in short days because less energy and the way they evolved not because they count light hours. because they all correlate it can be seen oh the light hours are decreasing and the plants flowering, but that is not how it works, it is just something we observed and didn't understand the full picture so science made assumptions that the phytochrome are actually responsible for counting light hours, when what they really observed was a descrease in light energy, and confused it with the plant actually having a clock. its not a clock its a energy tracker, as the days grow shorter, and temperatures drop the auxin levels drop as well. instead of looking at auxins in the past they so oh they must have a clock, they where able to measure the change in energy, and they made assumption that these receptors keep track of light hours, which they dont its light energy. as far as small light bulb inhibitting flowering i answered that question earlier in the post i believe, but its because this is not a natural cue in natur and the plant is confused so it doesnt start reproduction until conditions are stable generally, the reason light pollution slows flowering down, is it throws off the sleep cycle of the plants, which throws off its biochemistry and doesnt allow a smooth transition to flowering. i do not know the specific mechanism at work that is to play for this scenario or its name but it has something to do with messing with the plants sleep cycle in an unnatural way, it throws it off. In nature there is not going to be artificial light in the evening similiar to a small LED light or human lightings, the plant is set to sleep and wake up with sun, the plant evolved for millions of years without light in the middle of its dark cycle, its not ment for that.
* The internal clocks are based on evolution based on hormonal gradients, the presettings is preprogrammed, it is not based phytochromes counting light hours and minutes, it is a presetting that evolved through hormonal profiles to allow those plants to flower at the right time, the aer model allows for flexibility in the plant, lets say a plant really is programed to flower at a certain time, and that year is a la nina or el nino and extreme and the weather is totally off, the model that says the plant only flowers with certain light conditions would not be helpful to the plants survival in this instance. for instance a strain preprogrammed in the current model to flower when there is 10 hour of light generally, in the aer model if this plant experiences drought earlier or extreme conditions it has room to flower sooner in 12 or 11 hours of light to initiate instead of 10 theres not a preset counter it just knows when the auxin levels decrease enough, conditions are off and its time to reproduce while it still can.

@Ca++
"Ethylene is almost certainly involved. Both as a flowing trigger, and denominator in sex" - Interesting I will need to look into this i am interested in lookin into differences or cues in determining sex and factors, i havent gotten to that area yet in my studies but it is very interesting. at the moment i kinda put blinders on Jasmonic Acid, and the other Acids IBA, Ect and Ethylene, and have just been focusing on Gibberlains,Cytokinins,Auxins, and Florigen to help see the picture clearly first then when i understood there relationship better i am going to tie in the rest of the secondary plant hormones, i would consider those i mentioned like primary if we had to classify them on how they work, like monoterpenes versus monoterpenoid, there both monoterpenes but the terpenoids are oxygenated and specialized the plant uses both but the main ones are the monoterpenes.

For example if i am learning about hormones in humans, befor i study the more in depth hormones and finer details i must first have a grasp and good understanding of how progesterone, estrogen, testorerone, and human growth hormone work, similiar to plants before i want to go deeper down the rabbit hole. for me by excluding those minor hormones and focusing on the primary ones it is easier to put the pieces of the puzzle together. then when i feel like i know and understand these 4 main hormones like the back of my hand i will get further into the secondary hormones, like ethylene, and jasmonic acids and others.

 

[gorilla ganja]

they dont track the light hours, they track the change in total amount of light energy which decreases with lowring light hours

I initiated flowering one time with a 24/24 hr light schedule.

the reason light pollution slows flowering down, is it throws off the sleep cycle of the plants, which throws off its biochemistry and doesnt allow a smooth transition to flowering.

I work with autoflowers and almost always on 24 hr lighting. So, with constant light and relatively constant conditions, they still find a way to flower predictably every time.

 

[Verdant Whisperer]

I initiated flowering one time with a 24/24 hr light schedule.

I work with autoflowers and almost always on 24 hr lighting. So, with constant light and relatively constant conditions, they still find a way to flower predictably every time.

The reason this is autoflowered evolved to be extremely high in gibberalins and low in auxins, so there is nothing inhibiting them from flowering they where born ready to flower. you will notice most of your seeds should be small and oval shaped less rounded because of this hormonal profile. its seen the same in ruderalis landraces from regions with short seasons where the plants need to be born ready to flower. any strain left long enough in 24 hours of light will flower even if it takes 100 years it will still flower eventually in that 24 hours of light it depends on hormonal profiles and other factors, if there no stress and the line is lacking gibberalins and has a profile very high in cytokinins and auxin levels at a range that keeps it healthy while allowing the cytokinins to dominante that plant especially if from a region where its preset profile expects a huge shift to initiate flowering that one in a stable environment low stress that inhibits the plant from getting tall will allow it to stay in vegatative phase almost indefinetly, but eventually this plant with enough time and enough auxin degradation it will eventually flowrer in 24 hours of light even if it takes 50 years.100 years. where others are prebuilt to flower in 24 hours of light almost due to their hormonal profile based on their evoltuion to flowering in regions like siberia. nothern russia

 

[Ca++]

Ethylene might be an easy study. We have been aware of it for ages, and using it for ages to. 100 years in peoples kitchens, that I know of first hand. Maybe since Victorian times. Levels tend to increase as flowering sets in, and other plants smell it and join in. I have been told it's untrue, but others have said silver blocks it's receptors in the plant, which is directly applicable to female seed generation. Stopping the girl from being a girl, makes her a boy by default.

Toms taken when green, turn red in hours after it's injected. A standard practice. Sometimes we see necrotic round spots on toms, where the needles were dirty. Every tray we buy has at least one do this.

It must be an easy study, as we have found it and used it extensively for a long time. Bananas are one of the biggest emitters, and can be used to ripen things around them. Bananas are rarely bagged, as they rapidly ripen themselves.
I'm not sure we can ripen with them, or bring on flowering at all, but it's on the cards

 

[RingtailCanyon]

Interesting subject. The AI is not helping me understand what you are conveying though.

I thought this might be more about photoperiods for flowering which think have a drastic influence on structure, flowering time and cannabinoid concentration and is also varietal dependent.

First thing that came to my kind when you mentioned pollinating the apical buds is the theory of ECIWO.

And this on flowering at photoperiods longer than 12/12.

Longer Photoperiod Substantially Increases Indoor-Grown Cannabis’ Yield and Quality: A Study of Two High-THC Cultivars Grown under 12 h vs. 13 h Days - PMC

Indoor-grown Cannabis sativa is commonly transitioned to a 12 h daily photoperiod to promote flowering. However, our previous research has shown that some indoor-grown cannabis cultivars can initiate strong flowering responses under daily ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Donald Mallard]

Good Morning Old Piney, so i can see where your misunderstanding is let me explain, every organism has a Blueprint* this blueprint is influnced by its climate including light hours, the plants use their hormonal profile, and hormonal gradients thought evolution to adapat their hormonal profiles to flower in that regions growing season. the old model says that the phytochromes are responsible for tracking light hours, i am saying they confused this measurements. they dont track the light hours, they track the change in total amount of light energy which decreases with lowring light hours, and spectrum. alot of the old model is correct, plants in areas with long days and short days generally flower in short days because less energy and the way they evolved not because they count light hours. because they all correlate it can be seen oh the light hours are decreasing and the plants flowering, but that is not how it works, it is just something we observed and didn't understand the full picture so science made assumptions that the phytochrome are actually responsible for counting light hours, when what they really observed was a descrease in light energy, and confused it with the plant actually having a clock. its not a clock its a energy tracker, as the days grow shorter, and temperatures drop the auxin levels drop as well. instead of looking at auxins in the past they so oh they must have a clock, they where able to measure the change in energy, and they made assumption that these receptors keep track of light hours, which they dont its light energy. as far as small light bulb inhibitting flowering i answered that question earlier in the post i believe, but its because this is not a natural cue in natur and the plant is confused so it doesnt start reproduction until conditions are stable generally, the reason light pollution slows flowering down, is it throws off the sleep cycle of the plants, which throws off its biochemistry and doesnt allow a smooth transition to flowering. i do not know the specific mechanism at work that is to play for this scenario or its name but it has something to do with messing with the plants sleep cycle in an unnatural way, it throws it off. In nature there is not going to be artificial light in the evening similiar to a small LED light or human lightings, the plant is set to sleep and wake up with sun, the plant evolved for millions of years without light in the middle of its dark cycle, its not ment for that.
* The internal clocks are based on evolution based on hormonal gradients, the presettings is preprogrammed, it is not based phytochromes counting light hours and minutes, it is a presetting that evolved through hormonal profiles to allow those plants to flower at the right time, the aer model allows for flexibility in the plant, lets say a plant really is programed to flower at a certain time, and that year is a la nina or el nino and extreme and the weather is totally off, the model that says the plant only flowers with certain light conditions would not be helpful to the plants survival in this instance. for instance a strain preprogrammed in the current model to flower when there is 10 hour of light generally, in the aer model if this plant experiences drought earlier or extreme conditions it has room to flower sooner in 12 or 11 hours of light to initiate instead of 10 theres not a preset counter it just knows when the auxin levels decrease enough, conditions are off and its time to reproduce while it still can.

@Ca++
"Ethylene is almost certainly involved. Both as a flowing trigger, and denominator in sex" - Interesting I will need to look into this i am interested in lookin into differences or cues in determining sex and factors, i havent gotten to that area yet in my studies but it is very interesting. at the moment i kinda put blinders on Jasmonic Acid, and the other Acids IBA, Ect and Ethylene, and have just been focusing on Gibberlains,Cytokinins,Auxins, and Florigen to help see the picture clearly first then when i understood there relationship better i am going to tie in the rest of the secondary plant hormones, i would consider those i mentioned like primary if we had to classify them on how they work, like monoterpenes versus monoterpenoid, there both monoterpenes but the terpenoids are oxygenated and specialized the plant uses both but the main ones are the monoterpenes.

For example if i am learning about hormones in humans, befor i study the more in depth hormones and finer details i must first have a grasp and good understanding of how progesterone, estrogen, testorerone, and human growth hormone work, similiar to plants before i want to go deeper down the rabbit hole. for me by excluding those minor hormones and focusing on the primary ones it is easier to put the pieces of the puzzle together. then when i feel like i know and understand these 4 main hormones like the back of my hand i will get further into the secondary hormones, like ethylene, and jasmonic acids and others.

thanks for this thread man ,
theres a whole lot of good information and discussion here ,
and im enjoying reading and learning what i can ,,

i like to simplify stuff , maybe im a bit simple haha ,
folks often asked me what happens in the tropics to make the plants flower ,
since the days dont change that much in length ,
so what is it that changes ,

its as u say ,, many triggers , temperature ,, the intensity of the sun,
the angle of the sun,
the rain stops , less food due to less , or no rain ,
there is a range of things that accompany the onset of flowering ,
and the steady increase of maturation ,
i dont think its easy to replicate these things indoor ,
hence the plants not behaving the same as they may do in their tropical climate/environment ,
so just turning the hours down , doesnt do what we expect it might,
man has trouble replicating nature as he doesnt really see the big picture a lot of the time ..

anyhow thats all i have , ill go back to reading and learning ....