The SNOWDEN Saga continues...

[Siomha]

Here in europe they say to use an european Internet Provider. It suppose to be much safer. such as gmx for example.

 

[vta]

 

[bombadil.360]

i agree it matters not if others are doing it or not, it's still fucked up.

but can not agree that other countries are doing it in the same way. yes there may be some countries that watch their citizens like that, but the NSA is the only one who is watching the whole world, who has the back door access and keys to break encryption of most kinds. only the US has back door access to google, facebook, twitter, yahoo, skype etc. other countries might wish to do the same thing, but they lack the means to operate on the global scale. but yes the modern day dictator is watching his populations internet activities as well as their real life. but when they want to find out classified or encrypted info about another country they have to set up a cyber attack, they can't just press a few keys and get all the info from all over the world. so yeah saying everyone does it is just a misleading justification in the end

there's no "it may be that"... other countries indeed watch their citizens, and if given the chance to have the same access as the nsa, they would do the same, and even worst.

it is also a cop-out to say that since no other country has the technological level the nsa uses to spy, so it makes the spying of the nsa worst.

it's all equally fucked, there's no way to justify it one way or another.

peace

 

[gaiusmarius]

there's no "it may be that"... other countries indeed watch their citizens, and if given the chance to have the same access as the nsa, they would do the same, and even worst.

it is also a cop-out to say that since no other country has the technological level the nsa uses to spy, so it makes the spying of the nsa worst.

it's all equally fucked, there's no way to justify it one way or another.

peace

are you saying that other countries are getting the back door access to peoples email, banking, messaging, shopping and researching on the internet?

are you saying others are also being let on to the google servers, Skype servers etc?

because that wouldn't be true.

the non free countries in the world have their governments denying them full access to the internet, they will watch what people post on social media. but they do not have automatic access to everyone's emails, etc. they have to hack the passwords if they want access. to me that is a big differences.

so yeah, you are wrong when you imply that the US is not doing anything different to all the other countries. as i say that is their spin to try and make it look better. but it doesn't hold water if you look at the situation beyond their sound bytes on cnn or fox.

anyway at this stage in history, there is no place in the world with as many people in jail as in the US. there is no where except maybe north Korea where you will get harassed as much when traveling there. even China customs are not as horrific as the tsa. England is a close second nowadays. so yeah saying everyone does it, is disingenuous to the extreme. the US is now the top police state in the world. no other gov knows as much about it's people as the US. there is not even any medical privacy anymore, let alone financial privacy. like i say it may be that North Korea would love to have as much info about it's people as the US, but even they haven't achieved that level of total informational awareness.

 

[bombadil.360]

are you saying that other countries are getting the back door access to peoples email, banking, messaging, shopping and researching on the internet?

are you saying others are also being let on to the google servers, Skype servers etc?

because that wouldn't be true.

the non free countries in the world have their governments denying them full access to the internet, they will watch what people post on social media. but they do not have automatic access to everyone's emails, etc. they have to hack the passwords if they want access. to me that is a big differences.

so yeah, you are wrong when you imply that the US is not doing anything different to all the other countries. as i say that is their spin to try and make it look better. but it doesn't hold water if you look at the situation beyond their sound bytes on cnn or fox.

anyway at this stage in history, there is no place in the world with as many people in jail as in the US. there is no where except maybe north Korea where you will get harassed as much when traveling there. even China customs are not as horrific as the tsa. England is a close second nowadays. so yeah saying everyone does it, is disingenuous to the extreme. the US is now the top police state in the world. no other gov knows as much about it's people as the US. there is not even any medical privacy anymore, let alone financial privacy. like i say it may be that North Korea would love to have as much info about it's people as the US, but even they haven't achieved that level of total informational awareness.

I'm clearly not saying that any country has the technical abilities of the nsa; but that does not make them better or the good guys just because they don't have it, since if they did, they'd use it too.

but like I also said, it makes no difference, because indeed everyone is doing exactly the same thing, the only difference are the methods used.

say you grow in coco coir and I do in soil or hydro, at the end of the day, we'd be doing the same thing, grow herb.

so it's the same no matter how much we want to twist it or call the U.S "the big Satan" or whatever other fancy adjectives.

I think many Americans holding the view that their country is so oppressive and evil, should go visit real oppressive and evil countries, where cops, military and your everyday civilian will rob you or kill you on a daily basis. or where even expressing the most simple of contradictory views to that of the state will land you in jail without a trail, at a way higher rate than ever seen in the U.S. so much so it'd make your head spin.

many just don't see how well off they are compared to lots of countries, as well as how well they are compared to their own past.

imo of course.

peace

 

[gaiusmarius]

I'm clearly not saying that any country has the technical abilities of the nsa; but that does not make them better or the good guys just because they don't have it, since if they did, they'd use it too.

but like I also said, it makes no difference, because indeed everyone is doing exactly the same thing, the only difference are the methods used.

say you grow in coco coir and I do in soil or hydro, at the end of the day, we'd be doing the same thing, grow herb.

so it's the same no matter how much we want to twist it or call the U.S "the big Satan" or whatever other fancy adjectives.

I think many Americans holding the view that their country is so oppressive and evil, should go visit real oppressive and evil countries, where cops, military and your everyday civilian will rob you or kill you on a daily basis. or where even expressing the most simple of contradictory views to that of the state will land you in jail without a trail, at a way higher rate than ever seen in the U.S. so much so it'd make your head spin.

many just don't see how well off they are compared to lots of countries, as well as how well they are compared to their own past.

imo of course.

peace

you keep insisting on comparing apples with grapes.

just because some countries are not free should somehow make us glad to be spied on in the west?

i don't follow that logic at all. any country spying on it's citizens private affairs without due process is in the wrong. why would we compare the US to third world dictatorships?

you don't seem to realize that the international convention on human rights guarantees the right to privacy. western nations are all signatories. most of them actually follow the rule of law and use this thing called a warrant to spy. said warrant is only given by the Judge, when there is reasonable suspicion. so please don't tell me that all countries are, or even would do the same if they could. the Europeans know that such a system is ripe for abuse and gives too much power to the spy agencies. it destroys any possibility of real democracy as it allows the spy bureaucracy to know everything about everyone. meaning he can blackmail and extort his way to more and more power. let alone knowing what political opponents are planning in advance all the time.

sure some right wing war mongers even in civilized countries, do exist and they are all for the spying on certain people, i'm sure. but the vast majority of the people and their representatives realize that this can not go on. the European parliament has no choice but to fight this stuff and shut it down. it will take time, but this is the end of the internet cowboy era for the nsa and it's partners.

Brazil is actually planning to by-pass the US and instal a direct fiber optic cable to Europe to stop NSA surveillance of their citizens and corporations. they are planning legislation to forbid their citizens data from being stored out of the country by email providers, search engines, facebook, twitter etc.

 

[bombadil.360]

you keep insisting on comparing apples with grapes.

just because some countries are not free should somehow make us glad to be spied on in the west?

i don't follow that logic at all. any country spying on it's citizens private affairs without due process is in the wrong. why would we compare the US to third world dictatorships?

you don't seem to realize that the international convention on human rights guarantees the right to privacy. western nations are all signatories. most of them actually follow the rule of law and use this thing called a warrant to spy. said warrant is only given by the Judge, when there is reasonable suspicion. so please don't tell me that all countries are, or even would do the same if they could. the Europeans know that such a system is ripe for abuse and gives too much power to the spy agencies. it destroys any possibility of real democracy as it allows the spy bureaucracy to know everything about everyone. meaning he can blackmail and extort his way to more and more power. let alone knowing what political opponents are planning in advance all the time.

sure some right wing war mongers even in civilized countries, do exist and they are all for the spying on certain people, i'm sure. but the vast majority of the people and their representatives realize that this can not go on. the European parliament has no choice but to fight this stuff and shut it down. it will take time, but this is the end of the internet cowboy era for the nsa and it's partners.

Brazil is actually planning to by-pass the US and instal a direct fiber optic cable to Europe to stop NSA surveillance of their citizens and corporations. they are planning legislation to forbid their citizens data from being stored out of the country by email providers, search engines, facebook, twitter etc.

never claimed it was right or justifiable.

I merely claim they are indeed doing the exact same thing other governments do; just using different methods.

that was my whole argument.

btw, the Brazil info is pure fiction. they don't have the money to spend on such luxuries, specially when more than half of their population lives under the poverty line.

peace

 

[gaiusmarius]

never claimed it was right or justifiable.

I merely claim they are indeed doing the exact same thing other governments do; just using different methods.

that was my whole argument.

btw, the Brazil info is pure fiction. they don't have the money to spend on such luxuries, specially when more than half of their population lives under the poverty line.

peace

Money or not, that information came out of the mouth of the Brazilian president.

method? well i guess you could say it's a different method. one side is getting warrants on an individual basis before using their security apparatus hacks to invade some ones privacy, while the other side is just intercepting decrypting and storing everything about everyone. yes different methods. one is legal and justifiable according to national and international law and one is illegal and totally unjustifiable under both national and international law.

but be sure, that any country that is spying on citizens without due process gets my scorn, in this case it just happens to be the US and Britain involved in the worst violations that came to light so far. this is about internet freedom in the end, so well worth fighting on any and all levels, be it stupid shit like pipa and it's ilk or the NSA talking over the whole internet.

 

[bombadil.360]

I dunno if I can agree with you gaius, when you say it is one of the worst violations that have come to light... if you mean in regards internet privacy, sure, I can agree. but it is not the worst violation on individual privacy as a whole in general, not by far.

the Brazilian president can say what he pleases, he does not have the money to make it happen, simple economics. plus, even if he were to install another cable, it'd still need to be connected to the whole network to gain full access to all the internet, and it would still be hackable.

peace

 

[gaiusmarius]

the Brasilian pres is a lady, also i'm not sure they are as broke as you are implying, Brazil is part of the BRICS countries. as far as i know and wiki agrees, they are newly industrialized nations with quite some gdp.

BRICS is the acronym for an association of five major emerging national economies: Brazil, Russia, India, China and South Africa.[2] The grouping was originally known as "BRIC" before the inclusion of South Africa in 2010. With the possible exception of Russia,[3] the BRICS members are all developing or newly industrialised countries, but they are distinguished by their large, fast-growing economies[4] and significant influence on regional and global affairs; all five are G-20 members. As of 2013, the five BRICS countries represent almost 3 billion people, with a combined nominal GDP of US$14.8 trillion,[1] and an estimated US$4 trillion in combined foreign reserves.

but seriously, i don't know of any historic examples of any empire or nation keeping such close tabs on every single aspect of private life, be it on the internet or not. while other historic regimes have committed worse atrocities, even they didnt have as much information about the individual as is held today in the US. still i know what you are saying in a way about all countries spying on their citizens. when it comes to phone meta data it has to be legally stored for 2 years in the whole EU. what i'm hopping is that this whole story will lead to a backing off around the whole world when it comes to intruding on normal peoples private communications.

 

[vonforne]

Who´s the ass negging everyone in a discussion?

 

[gaiusmarius]

pah! neg repping without making your point is a cowards way.

 

[vonforne]

especially when the system keeps the coward anonymous.

 

[bombadil.360]

the Brasilian pres is a lady, also i'm not sure they are as broke as you are implying, Brazil is part of the BRICS countries. as far as i know and wiki agrees, they are newly industrialized nations with quite some gdp.



but seriously, i don't know of any historic examples of any empire or nation keeping such close tabs on every single aspect of private life, be it on the internet or not. while other historic regimes have committed worse atrocities, even they didnt have as much information about the individual as is held today in the US. still i know what you are saying in a way about all countries spying on their citizens. when it comes to phone meta data it has to be legally stored for 2 years in the whole EU. what i'm hopping is that this whole story will lead to a backing off around the whole world when it comes to intruding on normal peoples private communications.

gaius, we're gonna have to agree to disagree on the view that the U.S is the worst violator of personal privacy in the world; I can only agree in that it is the most technically advanced country that can and actually does monitor all telecommunications.

but I cannot make the leap from that fact to the conclusion that it goes around using the data gathered to incarcerate people for expressing their views freely; as of now, that does not seem to be the case. nor does it seem to be using the data to pressure individuals into supporting X or Y political movement in fear of serious repercussions.

maybe if that starts to happen, I'd agree with you 100%; but until then, there are plenty of other countries whose governments spy on the private lives of its citizens with less advanced methods than those of the U.S, and yet they put to use the info gathered in very different ways: people go to jail, loose jobs, and are even vanished.

on the Brazil issue; have you seen all the protests going on in Brazil as of late? mainly due to the 'cleansing' of the Favelas that the government has undertaken in preparation for next years World Cup.

Some of the biggest shanty towns in the world are to be found in Brazil, for example, and wealth inequality is huge, as in all of Latin America, when compared to the U.S or some countries of Western Europe, the disparity becomes even greater.

peace

 

[Pinnate]

. . . maybe if that starts to happen, I'd agree with you 100%; but until then, there are plenty of other countries whose governments spy on the private lives of its citizens with less advanced methods than those of the U.S, and yet they put to use the info gathered in very different ways: people go to jail, loose jobs, and are even vanished.

True! But it's not something functioning democracies do . . .
Any State that spies on its populace is anti-democratic!

 

[Stoner4Life]

I think Snowden leaked the NSA info because he couldn't think of a better way to break up with his fiance.......

 

[JRace]

but seriously, i don't know of any historic examples of any empire or nation keeping such close tabs on every single aspect of private life, be it on the internet or not. while other historic regimes have committed worse atrocities, even they didnt have as much information about the individual as is held today in the US. still i know what you are saying in a way about all countries spying on their citizens. when it comes to phone meta data it has to be legally stored for 2 years in the whole EU. what i'm hopping is that this whole story will lead to a backing off around the whole world when it comes to intruding on normal peoples private communications.

East germany, pre-1989
http://www.wired.com/politics/security/magazine/16-02/ff_stasi?currentPage=all

 

[donb5]

I'm clearly not saying that any country has the technical abilities of the nsa; but that does not make them better or the good guys just because they don't have it, since if they did, they'd use it too.

but like I also said, it makes no difference, because indeed everyone is doing exactly the same thing, the only difference are the methods used.

say you grow in coco coir and I do in soil or hydro, at the end of the day, we'd be doing the same thing, grow herb.

so it's the same no matter how much we want to twist it or call the U.S "the big Satan" or whatever other fancy adjectives.

I think many Americans holding the view that their country is so oppressive and evil, should go visit real oppressive and evil countries, where cops, military and your everyday civilian will rob you or kill you on a daily basis. or where even expressing the most simple of contradictory views to that of the state will land you in jail without a trail, at a way higher rate than ever seen in the U.S. so much so it'd make your head spin.

many just don't see how well off they are compared to lots of countries, as well as how well they are compared to their own past.

imo of course.

peace

The notion that the United States is so fantastic to live in seems preposterous at least to me. I've seen too much of the five habitable continents of this world, making extended stays in almost every kind of country. No place outside a war zone is so unsafe crime-wise, as a typical large city in the United States. And in hardly any nation on earth is it so easy to wind up behind bars, and no other nation locks up so many of its citizens. On paper the US may have a reputation for freedom, but in reality other locales are more apt to allow you to mind your own business. The US and its people could let down their pride and learn a great deal from even third-world countries. We are not so fantastic nor as great a gift to this world as many of us believe. There are better, much better places to be in my opinion and I plan to take advantage.

 

[vonforne]

I have lived in both the EU (germany) and the US with travels all over the world. The USA is the closest thing to a Nazi police state since 1939 Nazi controlled Germany.

 

[Crusader Rabbit]

from Cannonfire;

Friday, September 27, 2013
Spy hard
The NSA story has slipped from these cyber-pages. The diversion is, I hope, forgivable. The near-war on Syria was pretty freakin' important, as is the looming shutdown of the U.S. government -- not to mention the even scarier possibility that the debt ceiling won't be lifted.

But somebody better say something about the folks at Never Say Anything, Fortunately, the Big Picture does as good a job of compiling the data as you are likely to see...

The government is spying on essentially everything we do. It is not just “metadata” … although that is enough to destroy your privacy

That I knew. I've been saying the same thing for years.

The government has adopted a secret interpretation of the Patriot Act which allows it to pretend that “everything” is relevant … so it spies on everyone. For example, the NSA “oversight” court believes the mere claim that terrorists use the phone system is enough to show that all phone records are relevant

That is something I glancingly mentioned earlier this month. Let's head on over to Techdirt to find out more...

The FISA Court (FISC) today released a heavily redacted version of its July ruling approving the renewal of the bulk metadata collection on all phone calls from US phone providers under Section 215 of the Patriot Act. This is part of the "secret interpretation" as to how the FISC interprets the Patriot Act's "business records" or "tangible things" section to mean that the government can order a telco to turn over pretty much all records -- even as the very author of the law says it was written specifically to not allow this interpretation.

If I may repeat a line from that earlier post: One sure way to get the catseye you're looking for is to grab every marble in the world.

Let's return to the Big Picture:

The information gained through spying is shared with federal, state and local agencies, and they are using that information to prosecute petty crimes such as drugs and taxes. The agencies are instructed to intentionally “launder” the information gained through spying, i.e. to pretend that they got the information in a more legitimate way … and to hide that from defense attorneys and judges

That reminds me. Have you seen those ads for cloud computing services which automatically upload everything on your freakin' hard drive to the internet? If the data goes up, up and away, you know damned well that copies of everything will go into the NSA's big ol' secret box, there to be stored forever and ever.

I'll say again something I've said before. Many people react to these reports of NSA overreach by expressing this sentiment: "Who cares what they have on me? I'm dull. I'm small potatoes." Yes, but if things get politically weird -- or weirder -- in this country, you may decide that you need to live a more interesting life. You may want to be a bigger potato. But by then it will be too late, because Uncle will know your every weakness. Uncle will know precisely how to carve you into tater tots.

The chairs of the 9/11 Commission say that NSA spying has gone way too far

Top constitutional experts say that Obama and Bush are worse than Nixon … and the Stasi East Germans

I think that last remark ought to be "East German Stasi." But you get the idea. Let's quote a bit from that article:

Indeed, the American government has more information on the average American than Stalin had on Russians, Hitler had on German citizens, or any other government has ever had on its people.

The American government is collecting and storing virtually every phone call, purchases, email, text message, internet searches, social media communications, health information, employment history, travel and student records, and virtually all other information of every American.

Please keep all of that in mind as you deal with news stories and blog posts which try to convince you that this is all about metadata -- or about some pro-Libertarian post that young Edward Snowden once foolishly tossed onto the internet.

And now (getting back to the Big Picture) let's talk moneymoneymoneymoney:

The NSA spying program is unambiguously being used for industrial espionage, by spying on large foreign corporations, and the biggest financial payments systems such as VISA and Swift (Europe is not amused). Indeed, in a slide leaked by Edward Snowden, “economic” was one of the main justifications for spying

Isn't this an offense against the Gospel According to St. Ayn? I mean, by what right should taxpayer money be used to spy on behalf of private industry?

Top financial experts say that the NSA and other intelligence agencies are using the information to profit from this inside information

The Wall Street Journal reported that the NSA spies on Americans’ credit card transactions. Many other agencies are doing the same. In fact, virtually all U.S. intelligence agencies – including the CIA and NSA – are going to spy on Americans’ finances. The IRS will also be spying on Americans’ shopping records, travel, social interactions, health records and files from other government investigators.

Finally:

A huge majority of Americans wants the director of intelligence – Clapper – prosecuted for perjury. One of the chairs of the 9/11 Commission agrees

Of course, we won't see any such prosecution. A preference expressed in a poll does not always translate into a political movement.

I can't help but compare what's going on now with what occurred during the early 1970s. When Former Director of Central Intelligence Richard Helms lied to Congress, he was tried and convicted. When Jim Angleton was caught illegally opening mail (in a program called HT-LINGUAL), he lost his job. (Actually, there were plenty of other reasons he was "axed" to leave, but that was the immediate reason.) When word of CIA "dirty tricks" reached the newspapers, the Church committee instituted hearings.

What the hell is wrong with this generation? Why are we so passive? And why are all the non-passive folk focused on inanity -- the Tea Party, Ted Cruz, Ron Paul, Atlas Shrugged -- instead of cleaning house?

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