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The Real History Of Northern Lights, Written By The Guys Who Did It

R

Rgd

Well-known member
Veteran
in early Y2k i selfed an old 90’s local clone called

"the Big Nordern Light”[French accent .. RIP the person who said it]

the clone nickname was EARL..after a local who could east 100 egg rolls and go back for more

outdoors it was late to come in

but when it did..all other outdoor stopped

it grew tall..had big node knuckles..ended up with baseball bat colas and was up and potent

wonder if its extinct now.?

thats why i do these things
 
CharlesU Farley

CharlesU Farley

Well-known member
cbotany said:
I'm Just gonna say, Todd has always been straight up with me, and a nice human. I think people will talk their day away, but I don't try to save alot of mothers, I run from seed each year. I have a mother currently that came from a pack Todd gifted to me, and just for that reason I'm keeping her alive. People will get lost into details till the days end, but it meant something to me when he donated seeds, He's a good guy in my book, and I won't not defend his name.
Click to expand...
Totally understand. Recently read an exchange between Nevil and Tom Hill, and while Nevil didn't agree with what Tom said, he respected his loyalty to Sam.

And I have no problem whatsoever with people who use his products, as Shantibaba always says, "Plant the Seed". I'm sure it's damn fine cannabis, nobody sells schwag seeds these days, it's just not a specific _number_ of NL, from back in the day.

It's just his _method_ of marketing that is totally abhorrent to me.

This isn't about personalities, it's about methods... even the marketing and sales side of it.
 
RoyalFlush

RoyalFlush

DEA Agent
Premium user
420club
eastcoastjoe said:
See that’s the thing. No one knows you’re conclusion because all you have done is copy and paste a bunch of things you weren’t even involved in.
Quite poorly laid out at that. I don’t think anyone really knows what you’re trying to say because it’s put together like a bunch or rambling and babbling lol.
Click to expand...

The guy inbred 10 Sensi NL seeds and now thinks he's an "ExPerT" on all things NL. 🤦‍♂️

Most of his posts are nothing but junk yard conclusions and unhinged emotional outbursts. I wouldn't take this guy serious, nor should anyone else.
 
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C

cbotany

Well-known member
Veteran
CharlesU Farley said:
Totally understand. Recently read an exchange between Nevil and Tom Hill, and while Nevil didn't agree with what Tom said, he respected his loyalty to Sam.

And I have no problem whatsoever with people who use his products, as Shantibaba always says, "Plant the Seed". I'm sure it's damn fine cannabis, nobody sells schwag seeds these days, it's just not a specific _number_ of NL, from back in the day.

It's just his _method_ of marketing that is totally abhorrent to me.

This isn't about personalities, it's about methods... even the marketing and sales side of it.
Click to expand...
I don't know about Tom Hill, But I know Tom Gilles personally... I just think name dropping or slander does nothing to promote community among each other, I'd take Todd's word over many others. And I'm not in my 70's but i smoke daily if not hourly and if you ask me the orgin on some of my strains it might change day to day, I don't write shit down, and my memory kinda sucks at times, but if you combed over the details you could call me out on something I'm honestly correct on. Northern lights seems to be afgani called purest indica that made its rounds, crossed to several NLD sativas, to make 1-11 thats about all there is to the story, I'm not the biggest fan of northen lights, but I might buy some purest indica seeds just to cross to some fiber hemp for shits and giggles, I think making some big ass leaved mid grade would be cool. Cheers guys.
 
CharlesU Farley

CharlesU Farley

Well-known member
JetLife175 said:
Can we have just one coherent post that can tie this all up?

Like for real. This is getting to be laughable.
Click to expand...
I'm not tying anything up for anybody, people can make up their own mind, like I did.

Kimes figured it out, maybe you will too. If it's laughable to you, the solutions real simple, don't view the thread.
 
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CharlesU Farley

CharlesU Farley

Well-known member
The subject of this post will be Sensi Seeds, the Archivist/Ganja, and Nevil's relationship with Sensi. This is Nevil on the Mr Nice Forum, and I think this one's still available but I don't have the actual link:

"Yeah I don't know who Ganja is on the Sensi forum, but I can't say that I see much reason to read anymore of what he has to say.

Lots of people had somehow gotten a hold of this plant and renamed it and made their own line of seeds from it. Seeds being sold under the various names at different companies will no doubt differ, but it all started with the Cup winning plant, who was a daughter of a Cup winner, who in turn was also a daughter of a Cup winner. Did anyone keep the tradition going, or did it stop when I did?
N."

This was a post by Ganja, the Sensi Seeds Forum admin in 2010. Their entire forum archive has been shit canned, trying to get this information and more importantly, how to actually search for it, was a giant pain in the ass. _Thank_ you VTAMer!

I'm going to resist highlighting information that was important and vital to _me_, because it kind of proves my initial skepticism and it's why I dove into the history of NL to begin with.

But for you NL number freaks out there, if you actually _read_ this post, it'll tell you all you need to know. Ganja/Archivist is responding to the following post from JeSSe, found here:

Northern Lights

Northern Lights By JessE You're traveling through another dimension -- a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of imagination. That's a signpost up ahead: your next stop: the Twilight Zone! - Rod Serling Described as a...
mrnice.nl

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Posted: 09 March 2010 at 13:38
... for definitive information on lineages, genetic makeup and breeding programs, Nevil knows, Ben and Alan Dronkers know, Eddie of Flying Dutchmen knows.

They (and very few others) were all working with their own genetics and original hybrids as well as the imported US cuttings and seeds back when that material first arrived in Holland. They're some of the only people in a position to know precisely what went into what. Very extensive records were kept, but most of what I've seen is almost impenetrable, as few famous strain names are used in breeding records. Most everything is alphanumeric codes, some of which refer to the strains or geographical origins of the parent plants, some of which indicate a place within a breeding program or hybrid/cultivar family.

This might partly be to do with secrecy, but a lot of it is just for ease of labelling and record-keeping. Also, in the Eighties, the naming of strains had not yet become a business in and of itself.

Many present-day seed sellers do nothing more than rebrand existing strains and invent/retcon a back-story for them and this is one of the things that has led to the current unfortunate situation that JessE embodies - the never ending debate over the name game and near-obsession with knowing the 'real story'.

Enormous amounts of energy (and invective) are devoted to establishing yet another One True History of strains from from fundamentally contradictory (or just plain incorrect) sources. In places it becomes very much like other fandoms, with the alpha-geeks fighting over a Truth that will never be definitively established (and, essentially, doesn't matter at all). I spent many years trying to work out a definitive history of the European breeding programs and even with access to primary sources and a good idea of the overall shape and direction of things, there are certain details that are never going to be firmly established.

And, in the end, it really doesn't matter. If the seeds do what they say on the packet - germinate, grow and flower as they're meant to - that's really enough. A decent grower can get an excellent idea of a plant's qualities by growing it!

Knowing a hybrid's lineage is interesting, but gives little or no idea of how the strain or individuals within it will perform as parents, whether in the f2 generation or in a new hybrid. The only way to know for sure is to make the cross and observe/compare the results.

This, I guess, is one of the reasons that I've never seen Nevil, or Ben, or Alan, or Eddie answering questions on forums. All have written quite extensively about their breeding programs and going into further detail may be a nice kind of fan-service, but it's also a waste of time, since the information won't help anyone's breeding.

Moreover, getting into such discussions is a little like making a rod for one's own back, as it often leads to discussions with an 'interested amateur' who has read some forum posts that contradict the breeder's first hand experience. I've seen some of the older breeders express more than a little annoyance that someone who was born in the Eighties was tellling the breeder what they must have been doing in the same period.

JessE's original question had something of that arrogant tone - do Sensi sell 'the' original Northern Lights from the days of Nevil's Seed Bank, the one that 'everyone' loved.

Obviously, there were many different NLxNL hybrids, so the assertion that NL 5x2 is 'the' NL is just an assumption based on rumours and third-hand info. A little learning is a dangerous thing, as they say.

NL 5x2 is indeed well-loved, but since NL#1 is more consistent and classic Afghani in appearance (and not a hybrid of two different NL strains), many people preferred NL#1 and considered that the 'true' NL. Neither view is incorrect. This is why NL#1 was sold as Sensi's Northern Lights seed-strain for quite a while in the Nineties.

NL 5x2 was also very popular and, on average, slightly more potent, so it took over as 'the' NL seed-strain, and so it remains, AFAIK.

Expressing this simple reality as anything other than a hard, collectible fact to the likes of JessE leads to tantrums, dummy-spits and toys being thrown from the pram. Alas.

This is why I mostly ignore such discussions.

In answer to your last point, about trends and feminised seeds, the decision to start selling them a few years ago caused a lot of heated debate around the company. Many (including myself) were opposed to selling them. Until then, we'd heard far too many reports of fem seeds going hermie or generally performing badly and the fact that half our customers wanted them wasn't a good enough reason to sell them. Since then, I've had to change my position somewhat and admit that my initial reservations don't apply to well-made feminised seeds. I've watched very closely for complaints about fem seeds for the whole time we've sold them and found remarkably few (they seem no more likely to throw up hermaphrodites than natural females). I've tested them as mother plants, seen them grown outdoors (both of which we didn't recommend at first) with no problems.

Still, I know what you mean. I would always grow natural seeds over feminised and I would recommend the same to most growers, unless they are particularly keen on fems (first timer growers, very limited space, etc).

It's hard to guarantee anything in the cannabis world, but one thing I can state with certainty is that Sensi will never stop selling natural seeds in favour of fems.

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Posted: 02 March 2010 at 11:37
Well, I'd say that reading/reposting promotional material isn't the same thing as research.

If you read that massive chunk of text closely, you'll notice that it's not an attempt to define the history of NL, it's advertising designed to hype MNS and suggest that this rather new seed bank has a pedigree and history stretching back to the Eighties.

The first half has some facts (though muddled), while the second half is mostly about how fab MNS is.

Originally posted by an ad (JeSSe)

"Sam the Skunk Man claiming the Original Haze was a Mexican x Colombian variety, with Thai and south Indian lines added later in the Hazes development and the Mr. Nice Camp, who possess the earliest known examples of Haze in the world"

Yep. Sure. Older than the breeder who brought Haze to Europe and older than the breeders who have worked with those genetics since those times.

Originally posted by an ad (JeSSe)

"The Northern Lights #5 pedigree actually consists of Northern Lights #1 x Northern Lights #1"

Never heard this claim before. Somewhere between 'highly dubious' and 'patently false'.

Originally posted by an ad (JeSSe)

"With seed stock from 1988 where the #5 cutting originated"

NL#5 hybrids are offered in the 1987 TSB catalogue.

Originally posted by an ad (JeSSe)

"Quite possibly the finest collection of Cannabis minds ever assembled, Mr. Nice seeds offers’ possibly the finest selection of cannabis genetics in the world today ... recently crowned lines of divine and royal descent"

Hmmm, that sounds like neutral reporting of facts. Possibly.

Originally posted by an ad (JeSSe)

"It is these very same Northern Lights varieties that were released all those years ago, which literally became famous world wide that Shantibaba at Mr. Nice seeds has exclusive access too, with the Northern Lights 5a still being in possession of the MNS team and future Northern Lights releases looming in the future. There for my friends, there is truly hope in the world after all"

Anyone want to buy a bridge?

Originally posted by outlaw grower

"... the original nl that everybody wanted bred by Nevil at Seed bank"

Actual research(instead of quoting advertising material) should have revealed the fact that the 'original NL bred by Nevil' covers quite a bit of ground. The follwing are taken from 3 TSB catalogues:

Cannabis Indica 'Northern Lights'
Northern Lights "9" x Skunk "1" F1 Hybrid
Northern Lights x Afghani "1" F1 Hybrid
Northern Lights #132A
Northern Lights #2
Northern Lights 1
Northern Lights 5 x Northern Lights 2
Northern Lights 5 x SK1 F-1 Hybrid
Northern Lights Mix

Haze x Northern Lights F-1 Hybrid
Northern Lights #1
Northern Lights #2
Northern Lights 5 x 2
Northern Lights 5 x Skunk #1 F-1 Hybrid

Hash Plant x Northern Lights #1 F-1 Hybrid
Hashplant/Northern Lights #1 x Swazi
Northern Lights #1 F-3
Northern Lights #2 F-3
Northern Lights #5 x Haze F-1 Hybrid
Northern Lights #5 x Skunk #1 F-1 Hybrid
Northern Lights 5 x 2 F-1 Hybrid

The original names have been used above, and in the first catalogues the nomenclature hadn't been standardised. So "Northern Lights 1" is almost certainly the same plant as "Northern Lights #1", but I've reproduced all the names, just to be on the safe side.

Frankly, this is why I don't get into these discussions very often - the people who think they have a point to argue are almost invariably quoting advertising material as if it was researched evidence. Put simply: it's not. There are a few important facts which most people who were there at the time agree upon. This leaves a lot of leeway for people to fill in the gaps in the way that suits them. Heck, look at the number of seed companies that claim to be established in the Eighties, when nearly every one was started in the mid-to-late Nineties.

Basically, you can try to draw your own conclusions from the various claims, or you can take the word of one source or another. Only one company has actually been trading seeds for 25 years, and that's Sensi.

Fair warning: I'm going to remove the chunk of text at the top of this thread because the hyperbolic tone and the many inaccuracies nullify its informational value.

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This is one of the most brutal takedowns I've ever witnessed on an Internet cannabis forum. He doesn't even use one obscenity, unlike me. ;)

Posted: 04 March 2010 at 13:14
Ah, so you're 'JessE'. That would explain why you went to the trouble of reposting such a long-winded thread and also why you get a little testy when your received information and muddled version of events is shown to be incorrect.

Why didn't you use the same name on these forums? Concerned that your promotional prose singing the praises of MNS might seem a little biased?

As I said, it's really not worth anyone's time trying to point out to you that the ersatz 'facts' of which you're so convinced are simply second hand advertising material that you've built into a story. Have fun with it, believe what you like. It's nice to feel like you have inside information.

The salient facts - of which everyone who knows this business is aware - are that Sensi Seed Bank represents the entire gene-stock of The Seed Bank and lots more besides. This is undisputed, unlike the various stories of who stole what from whom and who has the real originals, as in the neverending story revolving around GHS and MNS.

It's also worth pointing out that Nevil ran the Seed Bank for around 5 years, whereas the same strains and more have been offered by Sensi Seed Bank for around 20 years. Any information or reports about 'the good old days' are far more likely to refer to the period that it's been the Sensi Seed Bank. Were you growing in 1987?

All the 'insider' gossip about 'why don't Sensi do this or that like Nevil did' is simply people parroting received opinions. If you've actually tried those strains from the actual good old days they were almost certainly from the Sensi Seed Bank. Simple fact.

Then again, when I skimmed through your attempt to debunk the facts above, I noticed that you may not actually understand the concept of dates. You confidently asserted that NL#5 was first available in 1988.
I pointed out that it was offered in the 1987 catalogue.
Your response was to post a scan of the May 1 1987 update (to the 86/87 catalogue), describe it as being from 'March 1987', then somehow assert that this meant 'we' didn't know everything.

Odd.

I suggest you look up the 1987 Revised catalogue, which proves the point that NL5 was used in commercially available hybrids in 1987, which means it was being worked with at least a year - maybe two - before that. Hence, your idea that from 1988 is clearly rubbish.

You reproduce a post that's apparently from shantibaba, which says "...germinated some stock seed from 1988 where the original Northern light 5 originated from"

Now, there may be some context in the rest of that thread that I'm unaware of, or it could be someone else using the name 'shantibaba'. I have no idea. What I do have is an actual document from 1987 which demonstrates this this is simply not the case.

So, which to believe, a forum post from 2007 or printed material from 20 years before? Tough decision.

Also, your assertion that NL came from the US in clone form seems to have been pulled out of thin air.

I only just read the pompous preamble to your post on MN forums, and I had no idea that you thought so highly of your own 'research'. I hope you'll understand that the above are just small examples of why I don't. You're cobbling together rumours and not even doing a very good job of that.

Your tone of a wounded truth-seeker is not very convincing, and if you believe that the first post in this thread was not hyperbolic promotional material ... I don't really know what to say.

Also on the subject of research, if you'd taken even a cursory look around these forums, you'd see that I've stated on many occasions that, to the best of my knowledge, the Northern Lights offered by Sensi Seeds is NL 5x2. This comes from asking the people who have first hand knowledge. I'm not sure what more confirmation you want.

Again, this demonstrates that your assertions ("the main question posed in the thread at the Sensi Seed forums was never addressed (lol), which was whether or not the Northern Lights variety currently offered by Sensi Seeds is in fact the same as it was during the late 1980's") are supported
by a laughable lack of research.

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Posted: 04 March 2010 at 16:51
Good to see you around again, Bowen.

NL#5 is a building block in many top notch strains - NL#5xHaze, Shiva Skunk, Silver Pearl (RIP) and, to the best of my knowledge, the Northern Lights seed strain and Jack Herer (which would also make it an ancestor of Jack Flash and Mother's Finest).

JessE is still at it. I seem to have touched a nerve. He's made a yet another long post which cherry-picks quotes and still fails to make a coherent argument.

This is why I avoid breeding discussions with cannabis anoraks. If I share what I know, someone who thinks they have the inside story is almost certain to hit CAPSLOCK and start raving about what they 'know' from reading other forums and fourth-hand information.
I'm not a primary source of info, as I didn't do any of the breeding, but I've been here a long time and I've actually met almost everyone mentioned in JessE's thread.

Things would actually be a lot easier if I didn't try to be as accurate as possible. It would be easier to say 'Yes! Of course! 43% THC!' to every question, as is the case on an alarming number of seed-sellers' forums. As it happens, the various claims of original genetics and decades of breeding made by every overnight seed company are actually true in the case of Sensi. It's one of the few things in the jungle of canna-breeding lore that's NOT in dispute. Still, the peanut gallery pipes up, based on a forum post they once saw, so it's usually best to ignore them.

Lemarcel, on the 'family tree' thread is an example of someone researching the subject in an intelligent way...

At first I thought 'outlaw grower' was just a bit mouthy and sure of his received info. Then it was clear he was JessE and saw himself as a herald of MNS seeds (whether employed or kissing ass in the hope of recognition). He lives in a strange little corner of the cannabis community if he thinks cannabis seed companies 'threaten' one another...

Since the last post, however, it's clear he's something of a coward and a liar. In his cherry-picking, he wasn't brave enough to reproduce the part where his 'primary source' (a forum post, big surprise) stating that NL#5 is from 1988 is flatly disproven by printed material from 1987. Sad, really.

Moving on to a less tiresome subject, Dam is doing pretty well, but the new conservative attitude hasn't gone away yet. There's a good chance things will remain much the same for years to come, but the government just dissolved and no-one knows what the next administration will bring...

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This is the chart he was talking about created by a Lemarcal:

1000011928.png


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Since we've heard from NSLG, Nevil, and now the forum Admin for Sensi, who is definitely _not_ Ben Dronker's son like I thought. :( Someone on Mr Nice mentioned that, it seemed logical to me because of the obvious deep knowledge he has of the history of Sensi, but that _ain't_ him.

Unless of course he talks in the third person, singular.😂

Next up is going to be a lot of general breeding info from Nevil that's not specific to NL but more NL crosses, He's going to talk about haze... and remember I don't give a shit about it, don't have a dog in the fight for it, never smoked it, doesn't mean shit to me. So don't try to argue with _me_ for something that _Nevil_ said more than a _decade_ ago. There will also be some general breeding philosophy, specific traits he looked for, and a whole shitload of humor.

He was a very funny fucker, even if he was a liar, cheat, swindler, smuggler, egomaniac... pick whatever negatve pronoun you want about him.

I don't care.

If _Hitler_ was a cannabis developer of Nevil's statute, I'd be reading _his_ shit about cannabis too. I don't care who or where _facts_ come from, as long as they're facts and not somebody's fucking opinion or what somebody heard somebody say, etc. I want to know what the people who actually did the _work_ wrote about what they _did_, and _why_ they did it.

You'll read a lot of what Nevil wrote about general cannabis development in the next post.
 
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M

Mimpi Manis

Well-known member
Beyond the actual 'facts', the most enjoyable part of these posts is witnessing writing which adhere's to basic grammer and demonstrates an able grasp of coherent argument. Like sparkling diamonds in this particular place. I've pulled up a comfy chair and a nice cup of tea and a Ginger Nut or three... so soldier on my friend. If only I had some original Thai Stick with which to enhance the show. It sure worked a treat watching Kubrick's 70mm '2001 A Space Odyssey'. Salute'.
 
CharlesU Farley

CharlesU Farley

Well-known member
Mimpi Manis said:
Beyond the actual 'facts', the most enjoyable part of these posts is witnessing writing which adhere's to basic grammer and demonstrates an able grasp of coherent argument. Like sparkling diamonds in this particular place. I've pulled up a comfy chair and a nice cup of tea and a Ginger Nut or three... so soldier on my friend. If only I had some original Thai Stick with which to enhance the show. It sure worked a treat watching Kubrick's 70mm '2001 A Space Odyssey'. Salute'.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the encouragement! This kind of thread usually is a magnet to Trolls but I post stuff like this for all the lurkers out there who never post, but suck up factual information like a vacuum.
 
eastcoastjoe

eastcoastjoe

Well-known member
Anyone seeking the “truth” should maybe listen to the interview with the man him self, Greg.
No need to try and navigate a bunch of random forum posts of people who didn’t have a hand in creating it.
Hell, Greg actually posted this right on this forum …. The much simpler explanation for the numbers …

6710CEBB-9CE6-4107-B464-28E4099B8F2C.jpeg
 
S

Sanjuro

Active member
✖
Do you guys know if some of the Afghanis going around Hawaii , that are in the genetics of NL5, had floral, earthy-mint-blueberry candy hashy smell, no pine or juniper at all? Darker green, short and bushy plant

I found only one of that type in mns ortega (nl5/nl1) out of about 75 plants

I also found a nice Swazi leaning one


btw, i didin't get a lot of pine/juniper smelling plants in mns ortega
 
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