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The Patroit Act A.K.A We No Longer Have Rights Act

mrwags

********* Female Seeds
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I believe several times i have reffered to the Patriot Act as a way of the US goverment to now strip ALL Americans of our rights that or fathers and grandfathers and great great grandfathers died for all in the name of terrorism.

Well folks that day is finally here and we are now all screwed.

When the FBI office in New Haven, Conn., received an e-mail in February 2005 that looked like a terrorist threat, agents followed a familiar routine. They asked the service provider, a group of Connecticut public libraries, for the real name, street address and Internet logs of the sender.

They had no search warrant, grand jury subpoena or court order. Instead, a local FBI official hand-delivered a National Security Letter — one of more than 9,000 sent to finance, telephone and Internet companies last year — that described the records needed.

Under a federal law expanded by the anti-terrorism USA Patriot Act of 2001, the written request was all the authority the FBI needed. The Patriot Act also barred the librarians from disclosing the request to anyone.

The librarians refused to hand over the information. Instead, they filed a federal lawsuit challenging the secret letters as an unconstitutional infringement on free speech.

The e-mailed threat proved to be a hoax. Yet the lawsuit it sparked, only the second legal challenge to National Security Letters in their 20-year history, provides a rare public glimpse of the vast amount of banking, credit, telephone and Internet records that anti-terrorism or counterintelligence investigators can have simply by asking.

National Security Letters are the key to the trove of personal data. When the law authorizing them was passed by Congress in 1986, the letters could be authorized only by a high-ranking FBI official in pursuit of an "agent of a foreign power."

The Patriot Act, passed six weeks after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks, expanded the letters' reach. Now they can be issued if a local FBI official merely certifies that the information sought is "relevant" to an international terrorism or foreign intelligence investigation.

"People have no idea how much of what they probably consider their private information is readily available to government," says Susan Brenner, a University of Dayton law professor who advises the U.S. Secret Service on technology and privacy. The letters, she says, raise the question: "How do we balance law enforcement's needs with what's left of privacy in an age where technology permeates everything?"

According to Michael Woods, chief of the FBI's national security law unit from 1999 to 2002, National Security Letters can be used to retrieve:

• Internet and telephone data, including names, addresses, log-on times, toll records, e-mail addresses and service providers.

• Financial records, including bank accounts and money transfers, provided the FBI says they are needed to "protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities."

• Credit information, such as an individual's banks, loan companies, mortgage holders or other financial institutions.

• Consumer, financial and foreign travel records held by "any commercial entity," if the investigation's target is an executive branch employee with a security clearance.

Only FBI agents can obtain phone, computer and financial records. Other federal agencies that gather intelligence on international terrorism can get consumer credit reports and credit agency data. They include the CIA, Defense Intelligence Agency and Transportation Security Administration.

9,254 letters served in 2005

The government swears by the National Security Letters. In papers filed last year in the Connecticut case, David Szady, the FBI's assistant director for counterintelligence, said the letters are vital to the bureau's post-9/11 mission: to disrupt terrorist plots and other national security threats before attacks occur.

The letters, Szady said, are especially valuable in providing leads because they establish relationships between suspects who may be linked only by records. Letters help investigators move "from target to target, unearthing the different layers and conspirators of an international terrorist or foreign counterintelligence organization," he said.

According to U.S. Justice Department figures, the FBI served 9,254 National Security Letters concerning 3,501 individuals in 2005.

By comparison, the secret Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which authorizes search warrants and electronic surveillance in terrorism and spying cases, approved 2,072 warrants and wiretaps and 155 applications for business records last year.

Before the Patriot Act was revised in March, the FBI was not required to disclose how many letters it issues. The number of letters from previous years, and whether they led to successful terrorism prosecutions, remains classified.

Details of success story

Because the recipients of National Security Letters are hardly ever named, little is known about how the letters have been used.

The details of one successful computer surveillance operation can be pieced together from public records:

In the spring of 2004, federal investigators noted that Mohammad Junaid Babar had a home computer yet frequently visited the New York Public Library to use its Internet service. The library's records showed Babar, a Pakistani-born U.S. citizen and suspected al-Qaeda associate, was e-mailing "other terrorist associates around the world," Ken Wainstein, the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, said last year while lobbying Congress to reauthorize the Patriot Act.

After his arrest in April 2004, Babar told the FBI that because the library's hard drives were erased after each use, he believed he could use the system without being monitored. Even so, investigators were able to learn Babar's name, address and e-mail destinations through records the library had stored.

Babar has pleaded guilty to providing material support for terrorism and faces a sentence of up to 70 years in prison.

"Libraries should not be carved out as safe havens for terrorists and spies," Wainstein told a congressional committee in April 2005.

Present and former government lawyers say the letters are on firm legal ground. They've been validated by several votes of Congress and used "thousands of times," says Kevin O'Connor, the U.S. attorney in Connecticut.

Woods, the former FBI lawyer, says that in most cases the letters allow access to information that the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled is not private. Requiring a National Security Letter, he says, was considered a "step up" in privacy protection from the way federal investigators previously sought records: simply visiting banks and phone companies and asking for the information, which was almost always provided.

The American Civil Liberties Union and some privacy advocates do not agree. Ann Beeson, an ACLU lawyer who represents the Connecticut librarians, says the letters are a "dangerous" and underexamined threat to civil liberties.

Giving the FBI authority to decide what's "relevant" to its own investigations, Beeson says, "is an open invitation to perform fishing expeditions" that trample the privacy rights of citizens. Because the Patriot Act allows checks of individuals who are not an investigation's target, Beeson says, the FBI is free to gather "sensitive information about innocent people."

Lee Tien, an attorney with the San Francisco-based Electronic Frontier Foundation, a privacy advocacy group that opposed many elements of the Patriot Act, says the secrecy requirement contained in the law makes it impossible for the public to know how intrusive the letters are or how often they help stop terrorists.

"The government has always had a door (to access) private records, but it has gotten a lot larger," Tien says. "Now the lock has been taken off the door. Patriot (Act) did that."

Requiring recipients of letters to remain silent is a particular concern, says George Christian, director of the Library Connection, the consortium that received a letter in the New Haven case.

"Being gagged has been an extremely frustrating experience," he said on the ACLU website in May, after a federal appeals court allowed the names of recipients of letters to be made public for the first time.

"The entire Patriot Act was up for renewal last winter, and I very much wanted to focus public attention ... on my concerns. ... I was shocked by the restraints the gag order imposed on me."

In papers filed in the Connecticut case, FBI espionage and terrorism specialist Szady wrote that letters must be kept secret to keep targets from learning that they are being watched.

'God forbid it isn't a hoax'

The New Haven case shows how the conflict can play out.

FBI agents, U.S. attorney O'Connor says, suspected the threatening e-mail was from a "crank" but believed they had an "obligation" to pursue it. "We weren't tying up librarians or reading through books," he says. "All we wanted was identifying information. God forbid it isn't a hoax."

For librarian Christian, however, the records request, and the fact that he had to keep it secret from his colleagues for more than a year, left him "shocked," "incensed" and feeling "compromis(ed)."

"The idea that the government can secretly investigate what the public is informing itself about is chilling," Christian says.

The lawsuit, and a separate case begun in 2004, already have produced some changes in how the letters are administered.

In September 2004, after a still-unidentified Internet provider filed suit, a federal district court judge in New York City found that the letters were unconstitutional because they provided no way for a recipient to challenge them in court. The judge also struck down the letter's non-disclosure provision as a violation of the First Amendment's protection of free speech.

The judge in the Connecticut case went further, granting an injunction that allowed the librarians served with letters to disclose that fact, as well as their names.

The government appealed and made concessions. In Connecticut last April, the FBI and Justice Department dropped their opposition to letting the librarians identify themselves and disclose they had been served with a letter.

In March, while both appeals were pending, the Justice Department proposed changes to the Patriot Act to bring the letters in line with the lower court decisions. Now, recipients are permitted to challenge a letter in court and to petition to have their names made public, though a judge need not grant the requests. So far, the Connecticut and New York cases are the only known challenges.

In May, a three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals in New York cited those changes in dismissing the Connecticut appeal and returning the New York case to the district court. One judge, Richard Cardamone, said retaining the provision that keeps letters secret forever is "antithetical to democratic concepts."

Continuing battle in court

The ACLU plans to continue its fight in the lower court. Beeson says the laws are still unconstitutional because they allow the FBI to launch "phony investigations" under the guise of national security if "they just promise what they want is relevant."

Christian, the Connecticut librarian, says the FBI's "ineptitude," not the end of the supposed terrorist threat in New Haven, caused the government to allow his name to be made public. By failing to black out all identifying information in the legal papers, Christian said, the FBI unwittingly allowed his name to be deduced by some reporters before the appeals court acted.

"The fact that I can speak now is a little like being permitted to call the Fire Department only after a building has burned to the ground," he says.

O'Connor says he doubts the letters will be found unconstitutional. Still, he worries that the lawsuit and the "unfortunate way" in which the FBI has been accused of censorship could lead other companies and institutions to resist "perfectly legitimate" demands for sensitive information.

"Ninety percent (of threatening e-mail) is going to be nothing," he says. "But the good men and women of the FBI are inundated every day with that kind of stuff, and they've got a responsibility.

"If there's information on a potential terrorist that can help, wouldn't you want them to have it?"


Sorry to bring bad news folks but it can only get worse from here. :badday:


Mr.Wags
 
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naga_sadu

Active member
I guess it's time for you guys to really start hitting the voting booths en masse in the next national elections...
 

mrwags

********* Female Seeds
ICMag Donor
Veteran
naga_sadu said:
I guess it's time for you guys to really start hitting the voting booths en masse in the next national elections...


I don't judge but do read a lot and know my facts and if it is another Democrat the war will continue and it will get worse. History proves Democrats take us to war sad but true and I'm very very blue.


Mr.Wags
 

genkisan

Cannabrex Formulator
Veteran
The parallels between post-9/11 US law changes and post Reichstag-fire German law changes are very very scary.


I find it mind-blowing that the US populace does not realize how badly they are being ass-fucked by the evil Corpo-Nazi scumwhackers and their political puppet-lackeys.....
I guess TV, movies, video games, the celebrity industry, pro-sports and all the other wonderful distractions the Corpo-Nazis use to keep the general public numb and unaware really do work.....way to well.

From the Patriot Act to RFID's in farm animals to politically manipulated scientific research, everything the Bush admin has been doing since 9/11 (and before) would make Hilter cream his jodhpurs and Himmler very proud.

And when you consider that GWB's grandpappy was instrumental in helping fund Herr Mustache's rise to power, it don't suprise me in the least that his grandson is a little fascist scumbag nutsack asshole.
 
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Crazy Composer

Mushkeeki Gitigay • Medicine Planter
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Since our own government planned and executed the 9/11 terrorist attacks themselves (which I hold to be self-evident in light of all the BLARING evidence), it becomes VERY scary that they want all this power to look into us. This means they know there's no threat from terrorists, but want this power over us anyhow. Next question is... what for? And I think that answer is self-evident as well. Total fear, total control.

The powers-that-be NEVER want to lose control over the sheep in the flock, they want to scare us into never want to leave the flock, so they can keep sheering the wool off our backs and selling it to the market that they and their friends own and operate. We're animals on a farm, slaves. Hell, we're even born with numbers (social security) attached to our beings. I guess we should consider ourselves lucky that they don't tatoo or hot-brand our social security numbers onto our flesh. Not yet anyhow.
 
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mrwags

********* Female Seeds
ICMag Donor
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Crazy Composer said:
Since our own government planned and executed the 9/11 terrorist attacks themselves (which I hold to be self-evident in light of all the BLARING evidence), it becomes VERY scary that they want all this power to look into us. This means they know there's no threat from terrorists, but want this power over us anyhow. Next question is... what for? And I think that answer is self-evident as well. Total fear, total control.

The powers-that-be NEVER want to lose control over the sheep in the flock, they want to scare us into never want to leave the flock, so they can keep sheering the wool off our backs and selling it to the market that they and their friends own and operate. We're animals on a farm, slaves. Hell, we're even born with numbers (social security) attached to our beings. I guess we should consider ourselves lucky that they don't tatoo or hot-brand our social security numbers onto our flesh. Not yet anyhow.


Thank You CC for posting this. I to fell in my heart that THEY did 9/11 but did not want to mention it at the time. Fear is what we are being preached now,most in the US are sheep,blind sheep that think it's ok to work your ass off for the man to make $3.00 per hour after taxes and medical. The kind of people that think it's ok to be lied to by our elected leader all in the name of some BS threat of terrorism.

If people over seas are willing to die in the name of religion wth makes the Bush administration think WE Americans are gonna change that? Sad thing is they know they won't,but there is a hell of a lot of money to be made in war time's isn't there? Just ask the Johnson's to bad JFK had to get in the way of that. Yeah it's been going on for a long ass time hasn't it?

What scares me the most now is the fact,for you to stand up in the middle of the streets and say these things you can now be labeled a terrorist and locked away until THEY see fit to let you out. They did not take away our freedom of speech with this act they just made it illegal to open your mouth and voice an opinion that THEY don't agree with. Sneeky Bastards.


Mr.Wags

Anyone wanna pitch in for an Island?
 
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G

Guest

naga_sadu said:
I guess it's time for you guys to really start hitting the voting booths en masse in the next national elections...
A lot of good our votes will do when our voting system can be manipulated. Remember what GWB did in his first election? How Florida, where his brother jeb is Govenor, fucked up royally on the voting process. I to this day still think that election was rigged.
It doesn't take a genious to know most of our politicians are corrupt. So why vote. Big bisness(sp) runs this country. An example, An oil king as president.
How long will we americans have the stomach for the removal of our rights?
One by one they are taking them away. It only makes me wonder how long before the US faces it's biggest crissis? Another revolution!!!
TO ARMS, TO ARMS, TO ARMS!!!!! :dueling:
 
G

Guest

Face it people we are not even in control of our own elections. We are told how to vote morally, although the people preaching these morales are the biggest hypocrites of all. Republican, Democrat, Conservative or Liberal ... What's the Difference anymore. I do believe that if a Democrat is elected at least we have a chance of getting this kind of shit repealed. The Patriot Act was never about Homeland Security anyway. Think of the data collecting reports that have been popping up here lately. This data can be used for all kinds of different stuff. Bush and his corporate cronies with out a doubt have other ideas for it other than National Security. I personally believe they collect data to manipulate the stock market. But that is just another one of my conspiracy theories.

Oh if they could shut the media up they would have already done it. That has been the biggest problem for this administraion, they can't keep thier own mouths shut. They tell thier own secrets and then we believe thier lies. The immoral fiber of America. We will believe anything as long as it gets us in the click.

I am ashamed of the way people are afraid of not beng accepted, that they are willing to live a lie in order to fit in to the morale group.

Ok time to shut up Mo :D

Sorry for the rant guys.

Mo, :smoker:
 

Ms.Grat3ful

Sunshine DayDreamer
Veteran
Mr. Mo said:
Face it people we are not even in control of our own elections. We are told how to vote morally, although the people preaching these morales are the biggest hypocrites of all. Republican, Democrat, Conservative or Liberal ... What's the Difference anymore. I do believe that if a Democrat is elected at least we have a chance of getting this kind of shit repealed. The Patriot Act was never about Homeland Security anyway. Think of the data collecting reports that have been popping up here lately. This data can be used for all kinds of different stuff. Bush and his corporate cronies with out a doubt have other ideas for it other than National Security. I personally believe they collect data to manipulate the stock market. But that is just another one of my conspiracy theories.

Oh if they could shut the media up they would have already done it. That has been the biggest problem for this administraion, they can't keep thier own mouths shut. They tell thier own secrets and then we believe thier lies. The immoral fiber of America. We will believe anything as long as it gets us in the click.

I am ashamed of the way people are afraid of not beng accepted, that they are willing to live a lie in order to fit in to the morale group.

Ok time to shut up Mo :D

Sorry for the rant guys.

Mo, :smoker:

ohhh rant away MO... i always read it... :smoke: ....

:wave:
ms.G
 

naga_sadu

Active member
Thisbuds4u:

America is a strange place. Although the country is rich and people are literate, their bullcrap tolerance is way too high for their own good. Out here, they tried the same bullshit prevention of terror act (POTA) just the same year 9/11 happened. But the ruling party was mercilessly thrown out in the very next elections and the act repealed in a single stroke. And in my home state, the last ruling party which did the POTA won 0 out of 68 contested seats.

I guess, also the corpos have a bigger grasp over affairs in the States. That kinda would make things tricky, no doubt. I know. Even the Federal Reserve is not a public sector entity and all monetary fluctuations are decided by the corpos. Kinda fucked up, really.

For one, if people, on a very grassroots level, canvassed for boycotting corpo products, it's a good start. But some dedicated people need to find and make substitutes to the commodities the corpos sell to the public. It should be done on a community to community level. Believe me, we had the EXACT same problem after 1989. But we never allowed the corpos to get a foothold here and as a result, things are so much more transparent in my state compared to others. For a while, from 1989 to 2001, we had what is very similar to the US of today. Corpos like Areated donkey shit Ltd (Pepsi), Bosch etc. tried to make inroads. They had budgets exceeding $300-500 million just for sake of penetration. But the people got together and all rallied behind the local small scale industries and today, the society is corpo free... and thus, very transparent. On a side note, this is not the case for most of our states, though.

The corpos operating here have paid big bucks to portray our home state as backward, very well knowing it has the highest living standard, litracy rate etc nationwide. Sorry, I digressed a bit but the point is, why should we meekly tolerate corpos?? Corpos don't like practiced democracy, that's for sure...but they love the theoretical / rhetoric type of democracy.

From 1989, it took till 2001 to get the corpos out. In that entire period, we all really did our parts- some guys offered alternative products at discount prices, others did door to door sales, shopkeepers kept our local shit only for stock, others canvassed the local industry on a very bare level thru bicycles from 4:00 AM to pretty much 2:00 AM the next day. I myself spent at least 12-14 hours on a bicycle everyday, pretty much sticking out posters of crap made by local industries in shops, bus stops, street walls etc. It's really disheartening at times because at times, when you've broken your back going around in a bicycle, sticking posters all day, only to find what you stuck torn away. So, you got to pretty much repeat the thing over. But nobody gave up. I myself flunked high school for 2 years because of this.

Continued and non stop. But it worked. Eventhough, the majority of ppls in other states were like "it's economics", "it's efficiency" and all that bullshit. We don't have corpos, but still, I don't see my state any backward than the others- in many areas, it's FAR more forward. But in the North- yup- it's pretty much like the USA today. If u want a peoples' republic or anything similar, the corpos must go.

But the result shows today. I don't see why this can't be emulated in the States as well...?
 
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G

Guest

Thanx MS. G. Smoking on that Pic of the month yet or is she already gone. Hope all is well with you these daze.

Take Care :smoker:
 

genkisan

Cannabrex Formulator
Veteran
Mr. Mo said:
Oh if they could shut the media up they would have already done it. That has been the biggest problem for this administraion, they can't keep thier own mouths shut. They tell thier own secrets and then we believe thier lies. The immoral fiber of America. We will believe anything as long as it gets us in the click.



Why shut the media up when you own it, control what gets seen, and the population not only accepts it but demands it?


TV is the single most effective and invasive method of wide-spread mind control ever invented, and when people spend thousands of dollars to buy the latest mega-screen brainwashing machine (that they have been trained to want), you can be sure the Corpo-Nazis are reaping exactly what they have planned to..........

.........a perfect way to inflict their malignant philosophy of mass consuption on the general public.....and the public even thinks this is a good thing, part of normal life and desirable.



The quote in my signature sez it all.......and it will continue to be true until we as humans stop being greedy little capital-hoarding selfish pricks who only think of the next 20 years .......


Unless we learn how to think 5000 years ahead, and base our actions on same, we have no fucking hope in Hell of escaping the extinction that threatens us (Thanks Corpo-Nazi parasites!)
 
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G

Guest

Why shut the media up when you own it, control what gets seen, and the population not only accepts it but demands it?

TV is the single most effective and invasive method of wide-spread mind control ever invented, and when people spend thousands of dollars to buy the latest mega-screen brainwashing machine (that they have been trained to want), you can be sure the Corpo-Nazis are reaping exactly what they have planned to..........

.........a perfect way to inflict their malignant philosophy of mass consuption on the general public.....and the public even thinks this is a good thing, part of normal life and desirable.

I totally agree genkisan. That goes without saying to people like you and me. I also think that this administration has stuck it's foot in it's mouth on more than one occasion and the media has called them on it. Or was it planned that way :chin: Now my head hurts :D

Mo,
 

treble

Active member
mrwags said:
I don't judge but do read a lot and know my facts and if it is another Democrat the war will continue and it will get worse. Mr.Wags

isnt the president a republican? I dont live there but I figured that much

naga_sadu as always your insight is uncanny... seen a few of your posts and I couldnt agree more

I would put up the point of why would a citizen not want to help the law? I had one of our national police come to my ISP at the request of the FBI and ask for records of email from a customer who had threatened President Clinton... turned out it wasnt one our customer.. was a spoofed address.. but we didn't hesitate to assist

had another state police visit recently on the trail of a pedarist... I been a long time out of that business but still had the records..... never thought twice, wheres the problem?

and USA is a strange place indeed...... I dont think people reaslise just how much data is out there being created everyday. to get systems to track all that shit and match it up is pretty damn difficult. I can assure you that what you see on CSI is not how easily it gets done.... I've seen first hand how things operate in states and I am confident they couldn't find a dog shit if they were standing in it

sorry all you guys but I wouldnt be too worried about your govt..dumb luck wont work everytime

treb
 

1TWISTEDTRUCKER

Active member
Veteran
Matirialisim & easy credit,have gotten most of us so deep in dept,(buying shit we dont need to impress people,we dont like).Most americans are to busy trying to make ends meet they just belive the spin doctors 30sec.sound bites,and think they're doing good because they're voting.when there aint a nickles worth of difference in the dems,and repubs.WE need to educate ourselves and our friends as to what these legislative bills really mean and vote accordingly.I belive the 1st step is to vote for only 3rd partys.Yes i know most people think its only a waste of a vote,or it will help the other guy win,but untill 3rd parties can be involved iin the debate process,yhe big 2 will continue to get all the media exposure.If a 3rd party could get 5-6% of the vote nationaly it would at least send a strong msg. to the powers that be that they're on the way out if they dont change there ways.And last but not least,cut up those credit cards,get out of debt,and throw off those chains.so we can have time to see whats going on around us.
 

genkisan

Cannabrex Formulator
Veteran
treble said:
isnt the president a republican? I dont live there but I figured that much

naga_sadu as always your insight is uncanny... seen a few of your posts and I couldnt agree more

I would put up the point of why would a citizen not want to help the law? I had one of our national police come to my ISP at the request of the FBI and ask for records of email from a customer who had threatened President Clinton... turned out it wasnt one our customer.. was a spoofed address.. but we didn't hesitate to assist

had another state police visit recently on the trail of a pedarist... I been a long time out of that business but still had the records..... never thought twice, wheres the problem?

and USA is a strange place indeed...... I dont think people reaslise just how much data is out there being created everyday. to get systems to track all that shit and match it up is pretty damn difficult. I can assure you that what you see on CSI is not how easily it gets done.... I've seen first hand how things operate in states and I am confident they couldn't find a dog shit if they were standing in it

sorry all you guys but I wouldnt be too worried about your govt..dumb luck wont work everytime

treb


Your belief that there is no malice and calculated siezure of people's rights and freedoms is kinda naive, senor.

Our entire society has been tailored by the Corpo-Nazis to provide them with what they need to survive....


Scared, dumb and easy to control consumer/employees.


All the govt bullshit you are trying to explain away is merely the political puppets of the Corpo-Nazi scum doing what they were put there for....and it is not nearly as incompetant as you make it out to be.
 

Verite

My little pony.. my little pony
Veteran
Just in case anyone was following history, no 2nd term party with as poor a public opinion rating has ever been reelected. So better brush off yer democratic shoes in 2008.
 

treble

Active member
hey genkisan dont mix up which side I am on... we have the same problem with our govt but you gotta put dues where they are due... no warnin on 911. no warning on oklahoma... no preparation on post iraq invasion... doesnt sound competent does it?

and you guys are worried about them sifting through litterally billions of electronic messages each day.....

sure protect your right because the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.. never a truer thing said.. but also remember individual freedom is a fairly recent phenomena. It wasnt always so.. and many countries havent even got to that point yet

go back 300 years and you are at the dawning of it. Even the magna carta took centuries to get a head of steam up and didnt really grab hold until the US constitution enshrined many of its features...

I would put this to you, that over the centuries of human civilisation the personal freedoms of mankind have ebbed and flowed from more liberal free societies to more controlled... it has been a cycle and its going through a cycle again now...

your responsibility as a citizen is to do your bit to protect the freedoms you have and want.... that means voting and being vigiliant and encouraging others to vote and spreading the message. You will always find people of a like mind if you look.

in my country voting is required not voluntary but they are working on it.. they just excluded 5% of the voting population with a new law. next they will try to make it voluntary, then they will never be voted out because the democrat voters here are too lazy to vote

apathy is your biggest threat.... its what they count on. the cant be bothered with it factor
treb
 

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