The myth, of the high P myth?

[Dave Coulier]

Your plants are looking great Sam. Ive been feeding at 60 P from 12/12, and have beautiful frosty buds that are silver in the light. Densely packed glandular trichomes on all my ladies. By far the nicest of anything Ive ever grown.

I noticed a few yellow leaves beneath your canopy. May I ask what ppm N you are feeding at? Im currently feeding my ladies at 200ppm N via Blumats, and they're around day 60 of flower, and experiencing a slow N deficiency. Do you or anyone else here else feed at N levels at or above 200 ppm N during flowering?

 

[spurr]

K:Ca:Mg 3:2:1 the entire way. i am straight up fuckin lovin this ratio.

Huh? ...

Joking aside, your plants are looking good. Nice job so far.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I am currently feeding at 100 ppm N. I fed them up to 125 during stretch. That is about as high as I go.

Inside the plants and down near the bottoms there is some self pruning, dying of leafs. I don't see any way to avoid that. But as long as the outside part where the actual buds grow I am happy.

Right now it is 100-60-175-117-60-100 (SiO2).

 

[DonkDBZ]

Inside the plants and down near the bottoms there is some self pruning, dying of leafs. I don't see any way to avoid that. But as long as the outside part where the actual buds grow I am happy.

My girls always start dropping the bottom leaves that get little light round end of week 4.

 

[xmobotx]

speaking of being in the wrong thread; the main thing i pick up here is K is more important than P for flowering. Being an organic guy, I began to translate that tidbit to my considerations of the mineral contents of various plants (as subsoil miners) and found that -sure enough- K is prevalent in many/most of the super plants we like to use for our compost and FPEs.... The chemist side of my brain wants me to try and formulate a plant FPE w/ a ratio near to 6-4-8 NPK.... i suppose if a guy were feeding commercial preparations, a good start might be doing the math and trying to approach a similar NPK

of course, i m not going to do any math - just let the compost pile do it for me

 

[DonkDBZ]

Day 36




Day 43 my P got bumped from 60 to 78 and K to 210 for 5days.




time to start flushing for me but my personal myth bust is done

 

[spurr]

Below are tissue assay data from veg and flowering leafs (mixed), using CNS Grow with Epsom salt and CNS Bloom Soil with Epsom salt. Low P is obvious and expected (they were healthy plants), the N:K ratio (aka K:N ratio) of 1.68 is (aka K:N ratio of 0.59) is quite high, I think that's due to mix of vegetative and flowering leafs, and extra N from CNS Grow Hydro; as well as high EC used by the grower (and thus high total N).

(more info about these data, and more lab assay data, see this post here)

 

[spurr]

Day 36




Day 43 my P got bumped from 60 to 78 and K to 210 for 5days.




time to start flushing for me but my personal myth bust is done

Looking good

 

[spurr]

speaking of being in the wrong thread; the main thing i pick up here is K is more important than P for flowering. Being an organic guy, I began to translate that tidbit to my considerations of the mineral contents of various plants (as subsoil miners) and found that -sure enough- K is prevalent in many/most of the super plants we like to use for our compost and FPEs.... The chemist side of my brain wants me to try and formulate a plant FPE w/ a ratio near to 6-4-8 NPK.... i suppose if a guy were feeding commercial preparations, a good start might be doing the math and trying to approach a similar NPK

of course, i m not going to do any math - just let the compost pile do it for me

Nice, good plan. Sounds like you're gonna make 'potassicompost' (that is not a real word, AFAIK). Another from is so-called "phosphocompost" (that is a real word), made with lots of soft rock phosphate. To add organic (OMRI, etc.) soluble source of K (and S) you could also use sulfate of potash.

 

[xmobotx]

vermi-potassi-cast?

 

[spurr]

I'd use it! (though I'm unsure worm would like it)

 

[YosemiteSam]

100 ppm SiO2...silica. The KSil I am using (AgSil) contributes 71 ppm K and 140 SiO2 when you dissolve one gram in one gallon of water. I am using 0.7 grams per gallon. The K is factored in the total.

All of my S comes from MgSO4. I am using 2.4 grams per gallon...so S = 2.4 x 33 = 79 ppm.

I think (from memory, I do not have the formula with me):

CaNO3 2.44 grams per gallon (100 ppm N, 117 ppm Ca)
MgSO4 2.4 ( 60 ppm Mg, 79 S)
MKP 1.0 (60 ppm P, 75 K)
KSil 0.7 ( 49 K, 100 SiO2)

and then I think another 50 ppm K from Albion Metalosate K or 0.7 ml per gallon. Met K is 70.5 ppm K per ml per gallon.

I use citric acid as a pH down.

And Peter's STEM micros at 0.1 grams per gallon.

 

[YosemiteSam]

Below are tissue assay data from veg and flowering leafs (mixed), using CNS Grow with Epsom salt and CNS Bloom Soil with Epsom salt. Low P is obvious and expected (they were healthy plants), the N:K ratio (aka K:N ratio) of 1.68 is (aka K:N ratio of 0.59) is quite high, I think that's due to mix of vegetative and flowering leafs, and extra N from CNS Grow Hydro; as well as high EC used by the grower (and thus high total N).

(more info about these data, and more lab assay data, see this post here)

I find these numbers quite fascinating.

A while back Avenger posted some info on stock plant nutrition on another site http://www.gpnmag.com/articles/stockplant.pdf. We talked about it some and I decided to move my momma nutes to a much lower K:N ratio.

At the same time I wanted to explore much higher Ca levels along with the higher N based on the work of Crop Report at that other site.

Here is what I came up with.

CaNO3 3 grams per gallon (123 N, 144 Ca)
MgSO4 2 grams ( 50 Mg, 66 S)
MKP 0.4 grams ( 24 P, 30 K)
KSil 0.7 grams (49 K, 100 SiO2)
micro 0.1

So 123-24-79-144-50 N-P-K-Ca-Mg

So N:K of 1.55...pretty damn close to what the tissue analysis shows. And mucho Ca.

We will see what we will see over the next couple of weeks. Hopefully I will not flat kill me mums.

edit...my formula appears a hair high on Ca compared to the tissue analysis. I have MgNO3 which would allow me to come closer to the actual numbers...hmmmm?

 

[Marquis de Sod]

all time stupid question, but when you say gram, are you using a portion of a teaspoon measurement or weighing it out? thx

 

[YosemiteSam]

I am using a gram scale and weighing everything. I use 115 gallon reservoirs so that seems accurate enough.

Here is a link to the STEM MSDS http://www.customhydronutrients.com/index.html/download/STEM_MSDS.pdf

They do seem to give themselves plenty of room for error.

I was unaware of the NaEDTA until now. I actually find that rather bizarre...fortunately it works very well.

The Met K is an amino complexed solution. So I have some aminos in me witches brew also.

 

[YosemiteSam]

YS I think you are pretty much on the right track and if I were to be really controversial I may even up the NO3 N just a tad (howels of outrage aghhh!). Also - I know you aren't buying it but what research I have read on coco tells me that it requires higher Ca than an innert medium so what you may be even finding is that a fraction of the Ca you are feeding is being locked. Ultimately it is what is available to the plant that counts. I've also got to say I've seen tissue analysis all over the place - hence wanting to set baselines with controls and run our own analysis. What is certain is low P in stretch looks just fine - my main concern is where to take this in flower and a what point it is simply going to waste. What I also know for dead certain is the mj plant loves K Cl and we want to look more closely at this. Good to see you have Si in the mix.

I agree. When and how much K to add would be the question.

I plan to watch how the stock plants respond to this. If growth looks good I may move towards this for veg.

My thinking then would be to move to K:N of 1.5 in stretch and 1.75 full on flower.

KCl is something I am considering in place of some of the Met K. I just gotta convince myself how much Cl is still safe. I do realize that more than I currently have in my mix is probably a good thing...I just fear the going too far part...something I am generally quite expert at.

 

[YosemiteSam]

YS I think you are pretty much on the right track and if I were to be really controversial I may even up the NO3 N just a tad (howels of outrage aghhh!). Also - I know you aren't buying it but what research I have read on coco tells me that it requires higher Ca than an innert medium so what you may be even finding is that a fraction of the Ca you are feeding is being locked. Ultimately it is what is available to the plant that counts. I've also got to say I've seen tissue analysis all over the place - hence wanting to set baselines with controls and run our own analysis. What is certain is low P in stretch looks just fine - my main concern is where to take this in flower and a what point it is simply going to waste. What I also know for dead certain is the mj plant loves K Cl and we want to look more closely at this. Good to see you have Si in the mix.

Actually Spurr's tissue analysis shows a little more N. So no real aghhh from me. Especially if my coco is actually supplying some K.

The plot thickens.

 

[Marquis de Sod]

now wait. Na ?Cl......? so...... you mean salt. i'm lost now. almost all drinking water has clorine in it so ..... what, use tap water instead of ro? and i thought we were flushing our plants out to get RID of salts. granted maybe not NaCl but..... lil help?

 

[turbolaser4528]

Maxibloom: N-P-K = ~1.3:1:2 respectively.


Seen a lot of talented growers using it, our nutrient Moderator swears by it. It looks similar to Spurr's suggested NPK ratio, but with slightly more P, and less N which you don't need in late flower as much..

My .02, I will try Maxibloom by GH for myself, + its cheap as fuck (.10) a gallon, $15 for a 2.2lb bag of super concentrated powder. Not bad for a complete veg/flower nutrient solution, K.I.S.S.

Indeed, the plot thickens.

 

[turbolaser4528]

And you would know this by how??? ... because someone told you so?? I find it fascinating how hydro industry drones feel threatened by a group who are simply moving beyond the hype and demonstrating how easy it is to take control and mix themselves (as is done by all agricultural growers and anyone else with half a clue). KISS is Keep It Simple Stupid and in your case I think this very much applies

PS. That is a good price but no where as good as mixing yourself (not that that is why we are here)

So all the successful growers who use MB are hydro industry drones? its the cheapest Nute there is ! besides the jacks/calN. You think your better than me? step off your pedestal bro! (aka stop being a dick)

Our Nutrient Moderator, Evlme2, stands behinds Maxibloom, I've seen Dongle69 pull down +2gpw with just MB and coco on a horizontal grow, plus many other very successful grows with it. Lets see some pics of your awesome grows

.10 cents a gallon is pretty damn cheap, It was also mentioned by Carl Carlson as another alternative to conventional liquid nutes.

Sure low p n a custom mix can grow great plants, but for simplicity, ill take a bag of Maxibloom or jacks/calN for that matter as Jacks gives you a little more control over N and Ca, and is still cheaper than MB (not by much).

A $15 - 2.2lb bag of MB will last me a couple crops.

Way too lazy to mix my own ratios, plus I have 2 have scales laying around to weigh out and measure all these different powdered nutrients, which can double my sentence if caught, and who has the time to measure 20 different powders every week too possibly obtain a better ratio than whats already tried and true in this community?

I was just sayin, MB is worth looking into as cheap, effective, one part nutrient solution for all mediums n strains.