The Matryoshka Theory - Possible USPS Loophole

[Guest]

I came up with this idea the other day, and I wanted to run it by some people...

Basically, the idea is a possible way to mail contraband through the USPS, that, even IF seized, could possibly provide immunity to the sender, or at least, delay investigation/arrest of the sender.

It goes a little like this:

What would happen if the authorities got a federal warrant to open a USPS parcel, but when they opened it, inside they found:

another package, with two different address different from the "seized package", and correct postage on the "new" parcel, achieved by utilizing adhesive postal stamps?

Would they need a second warrant to open the NEW piece of mail they found inside?

Think of it as a "Matryoshka Doll", with a package within a package within a package, all interior packages having different states and address than the seized package, or the package before it, all with their own wrapping and postage. The last package would logically contain the DOPE.

This could be an interesting loophole...

What does everyone think?

 

[Verite]

Unfortunately, theres more holes than dolls in that theory.

For one the postal inspector can inspect your mail for nothing more than determining if its urgent mail or not.

The USPIS has the power to enforce the law by conducting search and seizure raids on entities they suspect of sending non-urgent mail through overnight delivery competitors. For example: according to the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research, a private think tank, the USPIS raided Equifax offices to ascertain if the mail they were sending through FedEx was truly "extremely urgent." It was found that the mail was not, and Equifax was fined $30,000 to compensate the Postal Service for the postage that was lost to FedEx.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Service

For two they can inspect any 'package' they deem suspicious.

The Postal Inspection Service represent the federal law authority within the postal system. The Postal Inspectors are given the right to open suspicious packages of mail and perform the routine screening for hazardous "non-mailables". Due to the large volumes of mail streaming in, they are trained to detect suspicious or potentially-hazardous mail by mere sight. Several of these tell-tale signs have been discussed in the Postal Hazards section.

http://library.thinkquest.org/C005702/measures.html

Last but not least the laws that protect first class mail from warrantless searches was changed by none other than George Bush on Dec 20th, 2006.

The executive branch shall construe subsection 404(c) of title 39, as enacted by subsection 1010(e) of the Act, which provides for opening of an item of a class of mail otherwise sealed against inspection, in a manner consistent, to the maximum extent permissible, with the need to conduct searches in exigent circumstances, such as to protect human life and safety against hazardous materials, and the need for physical searches specifically authorized by law for foreign intelligence collection.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/12/20061220-6.html

 

[Guest]

Unfortunately, theres more holes than dolls in that theory.

For one the postal inspector can inspect your mail for nothing more than determining if its urgent mail or not.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Service

That doesn't apply to an individual, only to corporations. Corporations fall under their own laws...they are like their own little countries. They use and teach from this very example in most colleges, in a class called "Business Ethics" (305 or 307 for most universities, at least mine was).

For two they can inspect any 'package' they deem suspicious.


http://library.thinkquest.org/C005702/measures.html

From the same article in the third paragraph:

"Moreover, the Postal Inspector has no right to open First Class mail without a proper search warrant. Hence, what the Postal Inspectors can do themselves is insufficient to ensure maximum postal security."

There is no case law to be found, where charges have "stuck" from evidence gained from ANY agent of the government, that had illegally opened a parcel without first obtaining a federal warrant. This is common knowledge.

Last but not least the laws that protect first class mail from warrantless searches was changed by none other than George Bush on Dec 20th, 2006.


http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/12/20061220-6.html

This is interesting. Thanks for this link...I hadn't heard of this one yet.

Let's take a look at the "qualifying section" of this act:

"The executive branch shall construe subsection 404(c) of title 39, as enacted by subsection 1010(e) of the Act, which provides for opening of an item of a class of mail otherwise sealed against inspection, in a manner consistent, to the maximum extent permissible, with the need to conduct searches in exigent circumstances, such as to protect human life and safety against hazardous materials, and the need for physical searches specifically authorized by law for foreign intelligence collection."


Perhaps this would matter if you were mailing anthrax, or plutonium, however, "marijuana" does not satisfy any of the above requirements. I put "the important part" in bold...

Assuming a parcel containing marijuana was opened under authority of the above act, a simple "Motion To Suppress" drafted and presented by even the most incompetent of attorneys, would have the matter thrown out of court in a matter of days.

I have no worries.

 

[Verite]

.. That doesn't apply to an individual, only to corporations. Corporations fall under their own laws...they are like their own little countries. They use and teach from this very example in most colleges, in a class called "Business Ethics" (305 or 307 for most universities, at least mine was)..

Thats your interpretation of the individual case.. if they can inspect the mail for such a trivial matter there isnt any interpretation of the steps they can take or to whom it applies for anything they deem more serious. A deeming thats at their full discretion and the law supports to decide whats a threat and whats not. At that point your nest of dolls has little impact or say in how they proceed. Do you really think they'll open the package and suddenly stop all stymied when they see the new package? Or are they going to laugh knowing their warrant gives them the right to search the package in question regardless of how their contents are 'prepared'?

.. There is no case law to be found, where charges have "stuck" from evidence gained from ANY agent of the government, that had illegally opened a parcel without first obtaining a federal warrant. This is common knowledge.

Then you should review W Virginia cases of state troopers that had parcels opened that were deliberate attempts to hide radar detectors in moving vehicles mostly from Maryland where radar detectors are legal that passed thru west VA on their way to Washington DC.

I also appreciate your interpretation of the bolded print but do you seriously think they are going to use your interpretation of it while they ponder opening any package or do you think they purposefully chose that wording so they could interpret the ruling themselves any way they want?

My interpretation of it is " Depending on the circumstances that we alone decide on we can open any package we like at anytime we like without any judges interference whatsoever. " Wanna bet whos interpretation they use when opening packages?

 

[ampersand]

it seems to me the 'new' piece of mail was never actually mailed only that a package potentially to be mailed was found in a parcel. get my drift? to mail something you have to give it to the postman, not put stamps on it.

 

[Guest]

it seems to me the 'new' piece of mail was never actually mailed only that a package potentially to be mailed was found in a parcel. get my drift? to mail something you have to give it to the postman, not put stamps on it.

Yes, unmailed.

Here is a hypothetical situation that will help me explain...also, it happens to be something people do all of the time:

Try this...put a pound of methamphetamine in a manila envelope, and sent proof it. Put fake addresses on it, along with postage. I'll call the police and "tip" them off, but I will only tell them you are a drug dealer, and have drugs hidden in your car.

When you get pulled over, and they illegally search your car (say you shot the sheriff's son, and got away with it, and they are out to get you - entertain me for christ's sake), I'll bet my cock and balls that they don't open that envelope. It can't be legally opened without a federal warrant.

 

[Guest]

I also appreciate your interpretation of the bolded print but do you seriously think they are going to use your interpretation of it while they ponder opening any package or do you think they purposefully chose that wording so they could interpret the ruling themselves any way they want?

My interpretation of it is " Depending on the circumstances that we alone decide on we can open any package we like at anytime we like without any judges interference whatsoever. " Wanna bet whos interpretation they use when opening packages?

Did you read anything I typed? If you read the ORIGINAL post, it states:

IF seized, could possibly provide immunity to the sender, or at least, delay investigation/arrest of the sender.

Who gives a fuck if law enforcement follows the rules or not? I've done tons of fucked up things in my life, and have never been caught. I've been INVESTIGATED for MULTIPLE crimes, with no results. When you play by the rules, you seldom loose.

UNLESS THEY CHEAT TO WIN.

Of course they DO cheat to win...and, as a result, I have been to court and walked away a HANDFUL of times...EVERY TIME. It ALWAYS plays out as below.

This how the real world works...

The 9 Steps To Reality:

1. You do fucked up shit, and get away with it, so

2. The law breaks the law to fuck you over.

3. You get arrested.

4. You make bail, unless it is excessive, then you have a bail reduction hearing, and still make bail.

5. Your attorney puts in a motion to suppress, because judges tend to follow case law, as any simpleton knows.

6. Your charges are either dropped, or you

7. Go to court and win or loose, in which case you

8. Appeal, enter a new motion to suppress, and win.

9. Create a civil case against your persecutors, and win.

A case where 3 federal warrants were obtained to open a "suspicious" looking package, 3 different times...the rules say it's almost 100% improbable...

Do they care about the rules? Some do, most don't...in either case, IT DOESN'T MATTER.

Worst case scenario is, you spend a few hours in jail before posting bond (see the 9 steps to reality). The more rules they break, the faster you walk away.

The only people that should be concerned are:

1. Those that are too womanly to survive a few days in jail.
2. Those that are too stupid/poor to obtain proper council.

Again, this can only be understood by someone with a concrete sense of reality.

 

[ampersand]

i am not so sure.

was it ever mailed?

but if you shot the sheriffs son for sure as shit theres a warrant out for you.

what im trying to say is i think there is a difference between mail to be sent and mail that is in control of the USPS. i do not know.

YOU have control of a package. USPS has control of the mail. and W doesn't care, he'll open it anyway "with the need to conduct searches in exigent circumstances"

 

[Verite]

Yeah I read what everything you typed. Maybe you should bold everything thats a solid fact and not your interpretation of a very vague bill that allows them to do whatever they want, whenever they want without any federal judge to say dookie.

Your nine steps to incarceration arent proof of much either but feel free to bold some stuff there too.

 

[Verite]

Sorry bro, hope your theory works out for you and doesnt cost you too much legal fees in the long run. Peace

 

[Julian]

Nah...."box within a box" is found in many profiling references regarding the "feel of the package"....

2.If they has reasonable suspicion and/or PC to get warrant for first, 2nd would not matter...

But......

3.Other boxes inside would not fall under protection in the first place because not within the USPS actually......

I used to know a guy who would carry everything in his cars/trucks packaged and ready to mail under the guise that if something happened they couldn't open and search, because was "US Mail" requiring a Federal Warrant.......

If it's not in the mail...it's not mail ...

(Which wouldn't matter anyway because if the dog his on it , they'd have it anyway regardless.........and, should he have done anything minor, he could have been arrested and then car towed and inventoried, which also wouldn't require a warrant....

 

[Guest]

3.Other boxes inside would not fall under protection in the first place because not within the USPS actually......

I used to know a guy who would carry everything in his cars/trucks packaged and ready to mail under the guise that if something happened they couldn't open and search, because was "US Mail" requiring a Federal Warrant.......

If it's not in the mail...it's not mail ...

Who told you this? It simply isn't true. As soon as you create a parcel and attach postage, it IS MAIL.

This very fact is one of the reasons that I "walked" out of court a while back. In my situation, the fat-fuck-pig opened a package on my seat after a k-9 unit was ran through the vehicle. I've BEEN to court and WON because of a motion to suppress, for the very same subject matter above.

All of these things add up to help get your shit dropped. If a pig were to find a pound of cocaine, just sitting there on your passenger seat, and he touched it without wearing gloves, then those charges would be dropped as well.

Within this arena of technical fouls, the breaking of federal law by ANY authority will do nothing less than usher you back onto the streets with great haste.

It has become blatantly apparent, that the majority of users on ICMAG, that have gotten themselves into legal hardship, have, without a doubt, plead guilty right there on the spot and/or have been represented by a "public pretender".

The only people in prison are:

1. Stupid people
2. Passionate people
3. Crazy people (but hey, what defines crazy)
4. Poor people

Personally, I've been to prison once...for a mix of reasons 2 and 3...although they kind of blend together. According to my other threads, I am obviously, by self-affirmation a mentally ill person. Sometimes things happen with 30 other people looking right at you, and you just can't help put "make things right"...

Other than the exceptions, unless you are a total monster, prison and jail can be avoided. I am just trying to help other people stay out of trouble...especially for activities pertaining to something that SHOULDN'T EVEN BE ILLEGAL.

Right now, I have an extreme case of the fuck-its. Trying to convince people that demons, goblins, and the tooth-fairy DO NOT EXIST is, at best, mentally exhausting to the extreme.

FUCK-ME-RUNNING.

 

[Julian]

Who told you this? It simply isn't true. As soon as you create a parcel and attach postage, it IS MAIL.

Criminal defense attorneys.

This is certainly not the first time this has been discussed....I'd love to see some cases supporting that though, and would gladly stand corrected....

This very fact is one of the reasons that I "walked" out of court a while back. In my situation, the fat-fuck-pig opened a package on my seat after a k-9 unit was ran through the vehicle. I've BEEN to court and WON because of a motion to suppress, for the very same subject matter above.

Then it would be referenced in many cases. I've never seen such.Would like to if any floating around...

All of these things add up to help get your shit dropped. If a pig were to find a pound of cocaine, just sitting there on your passenger seat, and he touched it without wearing gloves, then those charges would be dropped as well.

That's the most absurd thing I have ever heard.

DNA trace evidence at crime scene?.....possibly....

A key on a seat?....plain sight, probable cause, and if wrapped no gloves necessary and if unwrapped they would put them on. Case closed. (literally case closed.)

I am just trying to help other people stay out of trouble...

Me too, and, telling someone that it can be in front seat and if no gloves no conviction is extremely irresponsible.

Trying to convince people that demons, goblins, and the tooth-fairy DO NOT EXIST is, at best, mentally exhausting to the extreme.

It certainly is ....

 

[DIGITALHIPPY]

Unfortunately, theres more holes than dolls in that theory.

For one the postal inspector can inspect your mail for nothing more than determining if its urgent mail or not.
The USPIS has the power to enforce the law by conducting search and seizure raids on entities they suspect of sending non-urgent mail through overnight delivery competitors. For example: according to the American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research, a private think tank, the USPIS raided Equifax offices to ascertain if the mail they were sending through FedEx was truly "extremely urgent." It was found that the mail was not, and Equifax was fined $30,000 to compensate the Postal Service for the postage that was lost to FedEx.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Postal_Service

]

hey....
is this for real? how did you find this. i dont understand. you say if i go to fedex and mail stuff as overnight that dosent need to be i can get my company in trouble????

that whole thing abut equafax smells like a set-up.

 

[Macster2]

This maybe nothing more than selective editing but my son watches a show called "48 hrs" In which LEO contends (and perhaps the show producers) content that a criminal needs to be arrested in 48 hrs or else ,who knows what? Anyhow the only party he saw get off (leo knew he did it) lawyered up and said shit, everyone else he sees goes down cus the cops say anything and everything to get what they need.
I know there's a lesson in this and mjolnir is stating it a little more detailed then I.

In other words SHUT UP and hire a mouth piece.Give them something to trip on and they will.

 

[ninfan77]

Mail isn't mail... unless well.. it's been mailed lol.

A package w/ stamps doesn't require a warrant... it's not part of the USPS system yet..

If you got out of your case because of this, i'm glad for you, but i would say its the exception to the rule, and not enough proof to be touting to everyone that just by putting stamps on a box will keep you safe from jail.

 

[kmk420kali]

"The executive branch shall construe subsection 404(c) of title 39, as enacted by subsection 1010(e) of the Act, which provides for opening of an item of a class of mail otherwise sealed against inspection, in a manner consistent, to the maximum extent permissible, with the need to conduct searches in exigent circumstances, such as to protect human life and safety against hazardous materials, and the need for physical searches specifically authorized by law for foreign intelligence collection."


Perhaps this would matter if you were mailing anthrax, or plutonium, however, "marijuana" does not satisfy any of the above requirements. I put "the important part" in bold...

Assuming a parcel containing marijuana was opened under authority of the above act, a simple "Motion To Suppress" drafted and presented by even the most incompetent of attorneys, would have the matter thrown out of court in a matter of days.

I have no worries.

I put the "Wrong" part in bold-- Marijuana, and all other drugs that are illegal under Federal Law...are considered Hazardous, and a threat to Human Safety. and can be dealt with as such--

 

[Verite]

This maybe nothing more than selective editing but my son watches a show called "48 hrs" In which LEO contends (and perhaps the show producers) content that a criminal needs to be arrested in 48 hrs or else ,who knows what? Anyhow the only party he saw get off (leo knew he did it) lawyered up and said shit, everyone else he sees goes down cus the cops say anything and everything to get what they need.
I know there's a lesson in this and mjolnir is stating it a little more detailed then I.

In other words SHUT UP and hire a mouth piece.Give them something to trip on and they will.

Thats a little out of context, I believe I was watching the same show where they indicated that in order to 'effectively' catch a murderer/kidnapper they need to make an accurate arrest within 48 hours or else the statistics show they dont usually catch them.

Doesnt mean the statute of limitations stops after 48 hours for anything, especially murder, you can be busted for murder anytime youre still alive. Depending on the crime is what usually determines when the time limit is up. Like most misdemenors you cant be charged with after a couple of years pass. Bank robberies are like 7 years or more, etc.

Apparently mjolnir has never seen an episode of COPS and has some pretty skewed views on how the legal system works or has some Jedi lawyer pulling some wicked mind tricks on the judges.

Theres no way I believe youre going to walk on some technicality getting caught with a pound of coke on the front seat of your car just because the cop at the scene doesnt don gloves before he touches it. Like I said only a Jedi lawyer is going to get you out of that one. Possession is 9/10ths the law not whos fingies touched it last. Being in control of the car makes you in possession of everything in it no matter who touched it last. The officer may make a judgement if there was more than one passenger and where the contraband was found but beyond that someone is still going to take the rap for it.

Knowing the laws and your rights is going to keep you 1,000 times safer than testing the limits of what you 'think' you know or how youve interpreted it 'outside the box'.

A package in a package is about as helpful as tossing your stash into the hands of the first bare handed officer you see when you get pulled over. Youre still going down and unless they lose your evidence youre still getting charged.

Im extra curious as to how mjolnir got off with the unmailed parcel since legal cases of that nature that set obvious precedent are well advertised in the press and 1,000's of legal circles that want to use the same defense in their cases. You would think with that kind of ruling there would be something on his or one of the many cases that followed. I cant find anything.

 

[Julian]

Thats a little out of context, I believe I was watching the same show where they indicated that in order to 'effectively' catch a murderer/kidnapper they need to make an accurate arrest within 48 hours or else the statistics show they dont usually catch them.

Doesnt mean the statute of limitations stops after 48 hours for anything, especially murder, you can be busted for murder anytime youre still alive. Depending on the crime is what usually determines when the time limit is up. Like most misdemenors you cant be charged with after a couple of years pass. Bank robberies are like 7 years or more, etc.

Yeah...homicides and similar (Oklahoma City is textbook)...."first 24hrs is the only 24hrs"......

Apparently mjolnir has never seen an episode of COPS and has some pretty skewed views on how the legal system works or has some Jedi lawyer pulling some wicked mind tricks on the judges.

These are not the droids your looking for......

Theres no way I believe youre going to walk on some technicality getting caught with a pound of coke on the front seat of your car just because the cop at the scene doesnt don gloves before he touches it.

Nah...doesn't apply to plain sight and drugs........trace evidence at murder scene possibly...

A package in a package is

part of package profiling criteria ...

 

[Obi Wan]

Did someone say Jedi?..........