the hydrogen car

[BenitoCereno]

^^Couldn't have said it better.


The reason why Hydrogen cells are being pimped is because Coal, Nuke and other energy interests think of it as a way to extend their own usefulness and insure that their children's children's children will be good little Paris Hiltons....It takes MUCH energy to make a fuel cell. To think that THEY are going to allow one alternative fuel technology(hydrogen cells) to be manufactured with other alternative fuel technologies(solar, wind, hydro-electric) is naive.

 

[tainted]

"Saying that $10/ gallon gas will force the free market to find green solutions is what all of the die hard capitalists say."

you already pay that--more directly in EU less so in US..shit a gallon of gas in US is half as much as a gallon of organic milk..the costs are just hidden...the "external cost" of gas is pollution costs...eg higher cancer rates equates med costs/spare air days/loss of tax oppurtunity as govr subsidises price caps...even little things...eg you need to paint your house more often due to NOX gases etc...these costs are diffused to everyone...even to those who directly use no gas...

furthermore...it takes GALLONS of gas to get you your gallon of gas...with fuel cells...you can take elec and make it mobile point to point...you can ship elec miles without major losses especially due to saline line transmission breakthroughs and the nature of elec..now you just hedged out millions of gallons of gas transporting around more gas...if you dont want that cash--ILL take it..

"What makes you think that they'll use solar and hydroelectric technologies to manufacture the hydrogen when we already have plenty of cheap coal and nuclear power?"

you manufacture hydrogen via elctrolysis...you convert the elec to something you can transport...something light...youre missing the point of the cell...its to create more efficiency DESPITE the source of elec--be it gas coal hydroelec solar etc tec...the full E-cars we have today can get a mile off a cent of electricity...they also create no sound...have 100% torque all the time giving you PORSCHE acceleration..its the nature of the motor..combustion is hyper inefficient...

as to the source for the hydrogen or more importantly the electricty...well thats not the topic at hand..just hydrocells prepare a full green global economy...anyhoo..despite that...what makes me think most countries will shift to other sources???..welllllll...considering the cost of gas/coal/oil prevents major production through cost--a whole fuckin lot of incentive exists:

if you reduce the cost of energy you pretty much lowered the factor cost for every industry which yields higher employment possibilities as well as lower prices...california has already pulled most/near all its coal sources...still uses NG...but NG creates less crap than coal...canada supplies most of its elec through hydro already...some of the EU 100%..so stop acting like its some far fetched idea space oddessey shite...

& i assume you guys are from the US/UK since your POVs seem both limited to their policies...

and yes many dollars against the advancements..yet people are still willing now to risk their entire savings to find better ways...people realize the profit is no longer souly with backing the large corps which prevent such growth...

"To think that THEY are going to allow one alternative fuel technology(hydrogen cells) to be manufactured with other alternative fuel technologies(solar, wind, hydro-electric) is naive"

no-one said "one" fuel tech...

call me naive...then base your entire argument on some palyers referred to only as "THEY"...not firm...while i know what you mean..lobbyists/coal n oil companies can only stop loss of profits through spending their nest egg for so long..as the days pass--the coal industry weakens...just spec the stats..oil is giving but being reboosted by chinese usage

i think youre under the impression that i believe this will all occur over-nite...never said it would....but to bellive that gas will lead us into the greater future when its source is limited and therefore increasingly expensive--well good luck dealing with china/indias growing oil usage along with the following ecological impacts...

"It takes MUCH energy to make a fuel cell"

ill bite...how much energy does it take...its not that energy intensive versus say a freggin 4000 part internal combustion engine and the weght of transporting the necessary dense metals resistant to HEAT...not a problem with cells...nor the moto

you may argue the cost of a fule cell is high...NOW..but it will be reduced...it already has been cut exponentally..

so as to energy of producing the cells..how you figure?? how can producing a cell create anywhere near the pollution as the substituted combustion engine running 300k miles....

". A hydrogen molecule is a single hydrogen atom, and a hydrogen atom is the smallest possible atom. It leaks easily.
2. It corrodes rubber. In time, it leaks.
3. It makes metal brittle. Engine blocks crack.
4. It burns hotter than other fuels. Unless it is pure oxygen going into the carborator, an internal combustion engine would produce more noxides (oxides of nitrogen, like nitric acid).
5. There is not enough platinum on the planet to switch our fleet of vehicles over to fuel cells."

1.use a tighter seal
2. dont use rubber
3. dont combust the gas.. the point of a PEM cell...
4. once again..no combustion needed...
5. dont need platinum..and they have already cut the needs dramatically by doping the plat..

-------------

SOOOO..to recap the problem/solution..in US..coal driven...the oil is for gas/cars...the e-car with fuelcell or battery would replace or yiled options for the consumer with variable source cells...now the oil as fuel is GONE...and now we can fight about coal and nat gas in the mains electricty boxes...

in regards to china/india..oil driven industries...theyll shift to more hydroelec/e-car as their economy grows as they will then require less reliance on importing in energy via oil drums and sitch to local sources such as wind/hydroelec....they are doing this as we speak...worlds biggest hydro-damn...did a special on discovery channel..

as said..canucks and uk..dont have a coal problem (hint hint)..its namely cars and oil...back to the fuelcell/battery

 

[BenitoCereno]

Look, Tainted, we basically agree. I just don't trust it when Bush comes out in favor of the cells. I think that the coal industry is behind it all the way. Maybe I am being a bit too narrow-minded on this due to my innate distrust of all things Bushy. Sure, put a gun to my head and ask me if I'd rather keep on burning petroleum in my car or use a fuel cell and I'll say fuel cell in a second...

FUCK INTERNAL COMBUSTION I AGREE.

 

[zamalito]

Yep I think we're all somewhat in agreement here. I just didn't want anyone to further the common misconception that fuel cells were a method for generating power they are a cool battery technology and not much more. I'm all about the electric car and think this is a direction we should be thinking about for the very near future. As far as us paying $10 a gallon for gas I agree and this just proves that the free market isn't going to come up with a magical solution when gas costs get to $10 a gallon.

 

[bongasaurus]

Hydrogen cars have been around for a little while. Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't there buses in the UK that are hydrogen powered?? I believe there are.

yeah, im pretty sure theres a bunch here in canada too

 

[Nikijad4210]

..shit a gallon of gas in US is half as much as a gallon of organic milk..

Actually, a gallon of organic milk at the farmer's market near here costs about $5 (the last time I actually looked a few weeks ago) gas is sitting at $2.19 down the road, so it's close.

BUT, organic milk up in MI at the farmer's market where my dad shops is a mere $1.

Otherwise, milk from say, the grocery stores in both our areas is around $4.00, and at places like Wal-Greens or CVS is about $2.50-$3.50.

But I do remember about a decade, 15 years ago when all milk from the grocery chains topped out at $1.25.....When my brothers and I were growing up back then, the 3 of us used to go through a gallon a day each---15 gallons a week between the 3 of us, not including what my parents drank, or what they cooked with. Until we moved down to FL when I was starting kindergarden, my parents were farmers in MI, and we were raised on a cow & goat milk combo.

eg you need to paint your house more often due to NOX gases etc

WTF? Back when we owned a house, we never painted it, we left it the color the former owner painted it. Sat that color for at LEAST a decade from the time he painted it. The people that bought it after us painted it (must not have liked white w/ blue trim)

Our apt. complex got painted earlier this year for the first time in a decade, but purely for asthetic purposes (it looked like hell before, now it looks respectable)

I highly doubt people are painting their houses and such for "noxious" reasons.




Tainted, if you really want to have a leg to stand on in an energy/oil debate (which is what this boils down to----oil V ----) then take a look around your house and start junking your plastics. We're not just addicted to oil for fuel, you know......

 

[tainted]

yea we agree...benito/zam

niki...as to not painting your house or not cleaning your drive way out with lime-away to remove oil stains: you dont embody the entire world economy...matter of fact: gas has external costs up the yang...how you want/prefer to descibe them--doesnt make a dif...its moot..

"BUT, organic milk up in MI at the farmer's market where my dad shops is a mere $1."

market basket price of ORGANIC milk--not the cheap shite...gas is one of the cheapest liquids available...ive seen milk at 7+ change...horizon brand...damn good milk though...


"Tainted, if you really want to have a leg to stand on in an energy/oil debate (which is what this boils down to----oil V ----) then take a look around your house and start junking your plastics. We're not just addicted to oil for fuel, you know......"

well..i tried to great extent to label everything in my posts accurately as poss...with that..i already noted oil as fuel versus pet as asphalt etc etc...

read: "now the oil as fuel is GONE"

cant/wont/ will not catch me slipping...

 

[Guest]

Money cannot be eaten

Money cannot be eaten

The hydrogen car rules.. Sooner or later we are gonna run out of dinosaur oil

They are thinking ahead... and as usually sinking like a stone

Our lifespan is too short to care I assume

No use synthesizing gasoline

The planet is fed up with our shit

thats it

I don't see why everything couldn't be run in an environmentally friendly way

we got the technology

You win the jackpot by recycling waste once it's up and running

But nobody likes a thin wallet when one is messing with mother nature

Upside down mirror lawbook (based on "moral consensus" mind you)

The Neverending Story

"Some people were born and others lived and died but no one knew what was going on"

I better catch some Zzz

 

[Glassblower]

Tainted:

I don't know anything about fuel cells without platinum, or "doping" of platinum, and I doubt you do either.
I have worked on a hydrogen/oxygen torch with a flame the size of my arm when working fused quartz, and know something about hydrogen. I am not saying that it can't be used safely, just that it is not to be trifled with. "Use a tighter seal"? Indeed!
Many things are easier said than done, including switching the world over to "green" cars.
I didn't make the list earlier in this thread to tell you your wrong to believe in the future of the hydrogen car. Not letting anyone stand in your way is not synonymous with not listening to anyone.

 

[tainted]

its not easy for sure...people wont ditch their oil/gas burning maybachs overnight.. no-doubt...but a few cars purchases from now...i bet people will see lots more elec based cars/hybrids etc etc at the sales lots and to where they are cheap and have enough performance to make their puchase "a hands down descision"..dont forget the snowball/multiplier efx...you buy an e-car...less demand for oil--higher oil price=larger price gap between oil and fuel cell cars...more people will buy e-cars...

as to changing grid energy which is perhaps more important in places like US/china...well...if the US werent spending 300 billion dollars playing dune to secure chinas oil source (its not our source/less 4%) and allocating 50%plus of tax money/debt on defense spending...they could have some more hydroelec plants...

as to platinum....

The efficient generation of hydrogen from a source other than petroleum (i.e. Hydrolysis cells) and the efficient conversion of hydrogen into energy (i.e. Fuel cells) are two of the most pressing needs of the century. Platinum is currently the only known catalyst to satisfy this development need and there is not enough platinum available in the world. Through this twofold effort between QSI and DSE, we hope to electrochemically demonstrate that nano-materials are an excellent replacement for platinum.

"QuantumSphere is one of the leaders in the race to develop catalysts that do not contain platinum. To achieve this goal, they have developed a line of pure nickel, copper, silver and other metallic nanoparticles" said Robert Dopp. "Their unique process also allows for the production of nano-sized catalysts utilizing the active cobalt nickel oxides and chelated cobalt cyclic-porphyrins. This development is not only exciting - but what they are doing is vital," Dopp added.

QuantumSphere produces the highest quality and quantity of nanonickel in the world. Nanonickel has the potential to replace platinum as the main catalytic material in a variety of hydrogen fuel cells. A shift from platinum to QSI-nanoTM nickel would result in a reduction in the cost of fuel cell and electrode catalysts by over 75%, based on current prices. The news follows QuantumSphere's announcement earlier in the year that it completed the buildout of a large-scale reactor for the production of nanonickel (n-Ni) that will be used to produce a renewable source of power to supply the world's energy needs.

http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=communique&newsid=8351

now we both know something about fuel cells w/o platinum

 

[Glassblower]

Thanks.

 

[Fatboy]

i think the infrastructure of refueling stations keep the hydrogen car unpopular. i'm sure the oil companies have a stake in this also. seems like CA was trying to get hydrogen fueling stations up.


how bout a weed powered car....would love the emissions...

 

[BudGood2006]

There are plans on the Internet for a hydrogen generator, called the Hydrostar. Google it up, it requires a lot of specialized skills and materials, but there are working models. I know a electrician buddy that is almost done with his. It uses a pulsed DC current to split water (H20), into two particles of hydrogen, 1 of oxygen. When properly running, vehicles equipped with this could actually CLEAN the air instead of polluting. Crazy stuff. The plans are readily available on the Net, the creator(s) decided to just put it out there for fear of suppression or harm to their families. I believe the idea is that you can't suppress EVERYONE.

 

[Glassblower]

how bout a weed powered car....would love the emissions...

The diesel engine design is a modification of an engine designed to run on hemp seed oil.

 

[Fatboy]

yeah but i'm picturing a school bus riding round with reefer smoke coming out the dual pipes and i'm sure it would have a following.

or is this de-ja-vu

 

[Guest]

When properly running, vehicles equipped with this could actually CLEAN the air instead of polluting. Crazy stuff.

You base this on what? I googled Hydrostar like you said and it looks like a stupid scam, just like every other water-based add-on system for cars. I'm sorry, but to believe in these things is to ignore a very large amount of fundamental physics.(and all the negative google results) I'd be willing to wager it will probably make his power and mpg WORSE because all these systems end up doing is shooting water vapor into your motor while placing a higher load on the motor.

Lets put reality to the side for a moment, and say that these things actually work. They all highly recommend (or require) distilled water. Distilled water costs anywhere from 70 cents to a dollar a gallon. So lets add that to the price. Lets also add in the cost of buying the stupid thing and then we'll add the cost of your time to install it. We'll need to add more money too for alternator replacement, as these systems work it a lot harder.

Doesn't look any better now than it did before. Lets not forget how stupid the idea of a water-powered car is to begin with. Fresh water is already the most precious resource on the planet, can you imagine how it'd be if we tried to power mass transportation with it?

The real key is for people to simply change their driving habits. I have a V8 camaro that would be looked down upon for being a gas guzzler(it gets 30mpg on the highway believe it or not), yet I only use about two tanks a month or less. Compare that to some eco-dweeb commuting 50 miles a day in his Prius, he is using a shitload more gas than me. I try to carpool everytime I go somewhere and I always run multiple errands at once.

Stop blaming the oil companies and change your personal habits! Radical transportation changes take a huge amount of time and money and its not going to happen by half-assedly rushing into overly expensive "green" technologys like ethanol, hybrids, or hydrogen cars. Nor is it going to happen by wasting your money on stupid green scams that do nothing except profit con artists.

I personally believe pure electric vehicles are where its at. Why have all these efficiency reducing middlemen(hybrids and hydrogen fuel cell) when you can just go from power plant straight to your car? The efficiency savings alone would be billions of dollars. Its far more efficient and cheap for all of us to use power generated centrally at big power stations than to try and generate it in small individual levels. Ultra-capacitors are being developed that would completely eliminate the need for massive battery systems; you could have one 500 lb ultra cap that charges in 5 minutes and takes you 200 miles. Not to mention a pure-electric car would be far more safe and simple than a hydrogen fuel-cell vehicle. Do you want a combustive gas stored at thousands of PSI in a super heavy and expensive tank sitting underneath you? Do you want a super-expensive rare-metal fuel cell that would probably require thousands of dollars for repairs or replacement? Could you imagine trying to work on your own hydrogen fuel cell car? It would probably void your warranty the moment you popped the hood. In contrast an electric car's drivetrain would be very very simple: battery/capacitor and electric motor.

 

[9Lives]

You cant store hydrogen! And the transport of hydrogen actually costs more. And is very dangerous.

There are some ideas..but by the time they get all the bugs out its still too late.

Nano solar is being made available for the average joe in 2007. Cant wait to see!

 

[9Lives]

People today...it's like when they believed they could have nuclear powered vacuum cleaners..

 

[zamalito]

An interesting fact 30% of the energy consumed by a car in its life is in the manufacturing.

 

[BudGood2006]

You base this on what? I googled Hydrostar like you said and it looks like a stupid scam, just like every other water-based add-on system for cars. I'm sorry, but to believe in these things is to ignore a very large amount of fundamental physics.(and all the negative google results) I'd be willing to wager it will probably make his power and mpg WORSE because all these systems end up doing is shooting water vapor into your motor while placing a higher load on the motor.

Lets put reality to the side for a moment, and say that these things actually work. They all highly recommend (or require) distilled water. Distilled water costs anywhere from 70 cents to a dollar a gallon. So lets add that to the price. Lets also add in the cost of buying the stupid thing and then we'll add the cost of your time to install it. We'll need to add more money too for alternator replacement, as these systems work it a lot harder.

Doesn't look any better now than it did before. Lets not forget how stupid the idea of a water-powered car is to begin with. Fresh water is already the most precious resource on the planet, can you imagine how it'd be if we tried to power mass transportation with it?

Wow, quite a shitty attitude! Problems? Oh wait, I know, you're pissed that you can't grow anything but hermies. Bummer for you. This is not the place to vent your anger. If you don't agree with it (or don't happen to be technically proficient enough to build one, so you trash it), good for you. Doesn't mean it is devoid of merits. No need to be an assh@le, now is there? FYI, there are people running vehicles with them AT THIS MOMENT. I just spoke with my electrician buddy, his is 99% complete, he is waiting on 1 component and it's done. Ciao