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The difference between HUMIC and FULVIC Acids...

Vandenberg

Well-known member
Molecules.jpg

A Quick Overview​

Humic and fulvic acids are both humic substances (along with humin). However, there are a few key differences that impact their benefits and how each are best applied.
In short, they vary regarding carbon and oxygen content, acidity, degree of polymerization, molecular weight, and color.
Humic acids are large molecules that function best in soil to provide an optimal growing environment.
Fulvic acids are much smaller molecules that work well in both soil and foliar applications, where they transfer vital nutrients through the cell membrane of plants.
They can work in tandem to help boost plant health and increase crop yields.

More about Humic Acids
Humic acids are big molecules, ranging in molecular size from 10,000 to 100,000. They're dark in color and combine mixtures of carbon chains and carbon rings. (In addition to carbon, they also contain oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, and phosphorus.) The exact composition of humic molecules varies by source. They're not soluble in water in acid conditions, but are soluble in alkaline solutions. Humic acids work best in the soil, where they readily unlock nutrients and bind to them, making them available for uptake into plants. And they chelate toxic metals, preventing harmful material from entering the plant. Further, they stimulate microbial activity in soil, increase water retention, and stimulate root and shoot growth. They also act as a dilator, increasing the cell wall permeability of plants so that nutrients can be absorbed. They're all-stars of soil, an essential component of every soil environment that help to make the whole system work better. Humic acids can be thought of as the roads, bridges, and tunnels that allow for essential exchanges between the plant and soil. (Although humic acids work best in soil, they're also vital in foliar applications, because they increase the cell wall permeability of plants, which in turn increases the uptake of nutrients.)

More about Fulvic Acids
Fulvic acids are much smaller molecules than humic acids, ranging in molecular size from 1,000 to 10,000. They're soluble in water at all pH levels, unlike humic acids, which are only soluble in alkaline solutions.

There are two types of fulvic acids–fulvates, which are molecules bound to minerals, and free-form fulvic acids.

Fulvic acids consist mostly of carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, and nitrogen. Like humic acids, they're formed through microbial decay. They are golden in color and are more biologically active than humic acids, due to an oxygen content that is nearly twice that of humic acids. The principal benefit of fulvic acids is their ability to bind to nutrients and transfer those nutrients into plants. In fact, fulvic acids are the most effective carbon containing chelating compound known. This is due to fulvic acids small molecular size and electrical charge. (Although they're small, they can carry many times their own weight in minerals.) Fulvic acids can be thought of as the railcars that carry vital nutrients from the soil into the plant.
originaly by ~earth-green~

∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆∆
I recently listened to a podcast with Jim Bennett aka "Clackamas Coot" on a "Future Cannabis Project" podcast who highly recommended a premium quality, OMRI certified as organic Fulvic Acid Isolate product called "Ful-Power" that uses a proprietary biological process without the customary use of harsh chemicals resulting in a clean product which will not effect pH or EC.

For a much more scholary take on this Humates subject, this link is an informative read.
Humic Acids: Marvelous Products of Soil Chemistry
download

≠=============================={{{{{==================
I was surprised to learn something rather interesting to me that far-eastern medicine has been recently pioneering the un-patentable concept ( no "big Pharma" money) of using a pure fulvic acid isolate and various medicinal mushrooms compounded together to stimulate healing as part of an anti-cancer/ autoimmunity disease type regimen program ("Fauna Mana"), from what I understand.
"BioAg Ful-Power" is a free-form mineral free formulation that is considered quite pure and is apparently orally ingested by some for medical purposes, (per their Doctors recommendation, I should guess.)
Kids, please do not try sipping this schtuff at home, just saying. :cool:

Happy Gardening!
Vandenberg :)
 
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Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
I've read a lot of studies on humic substances (HS) and the more I read about them the more impressed I am. Heavy molecular weight (very complex) humic acids can easily rip glyphosate and other pesticide/herbicide molecules apart. Very cool stuff indeed.
 

VenerableHippie

Active member
I've read a lot of studies on humic substances (HS) and the more I read about them the more impressed I am. Heavy molecular weight (very complex) humic acids can easily rip glyphosate and other pesticide/herbicide molecules apart. Very cool stuff indeed.
Fulvic certainly does ameliorate the effects of glyphosate.

To minimise the effect of glyphos applied to soil fulvic can be applied at 10X it's normal rate. However, while boosting a plant's 'resistance' fulvic cannot help against the AMPA (hmm, hmmm, thinks ... a type of acid ... something mono something acid) which forms as glyphos breaks down in the soil.

Depending on soil type and condition this little nasty may take more than three years before it goes away and affects plant growth all that time.
 

Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
AMPA is the most common surfactant used with glyphosate, and not part of the glyphosate molecule itself. Looking now for HS interaction studies with AMPA. Ty. :)

@GMT Not sure, but I have read the color goes away when they lock out stuff. Clean water mix or straight products? Edit: humic acids break down at pH above 9... maybe relevant?? Not sure.
 
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Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
Here we go... chickens given glyphosate based herbicides AND humic acids study. They specifically mention Roundup, though the remainder of the study uses the term GBH. Not sure if they specifically use Roundup (which we know uses AMPA), but humic acid additions to the chicken feed prevented the reproductive issues the GBH products caused.
 

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BumblebeeTuna

New member
I heard on youtube that humic is good for chelating xylem minerals, while fulvic helps phloem minerals. Anyone have any thoughts about that? I'm confused about compounds in the plant, after being lied to for decades about the supposed ionic-exclusive uptake of plant nutrition. I also heard somewhere that using sulfur-nitrogen compounds would feed the plant sulfur when nitrogen gets low and translocates from older leaves, bringing the sulfur with it. All this new info is like finding out God is real after being an atheist your entire life. I want to learn more but all the 'expertise' and literature on the subject just drives you right back to non belief.
 

Vandenberg

Well-known member

I found this to be an interesting and informative 44 minute webinar. :)

The first twenty minutes is the digest version. :)
They eventually talk a bit about field scaled agriculture applications and do have a humic product they sell to actual large scale "sq. mile farmers".

About 12 minutes in-to the video he claims that humic substances are not a food source for bioligy but are a substrate for the bioligy.
That is contrary to what is frequently taught. Any thoughts?
It cited the book:
TitleHumic, Fulvic and Microbial Balance: Organic Soil Conditioning :
an Agricultural Text and Reference Book
AuthorWilliam R. Jackson PhD
Length958 pages
A 4 inch thick door stopper of a book that is considered iconic, apparently.
Its " only" $399.99-pointnine on amazoo in hardcover.

This video consisely covers alot of ground on the subject at hand here, Humates.
The Benefits of Humic Substances in agriculture


Vandenberg :)
 
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Douglas.Curtis

Autistic Diplomat in Training
@BumblebeeTuna Cannabis is one of a small group of plants classified as dynamic accumulators. Not only do they have more uptake channels than "passive ionic," they take excessive levels of elements and molecules and bind them to new growth tissue cell walls. ( You know.... the flowers?) These elements and molecules will not flush out and will be present at harvest, adding harshness, lowering cannabinoid/terpene levels and darkening the ash.

Fun!! :)
 

Cvh

Well-known member
Supermod
Free ☕ 🦫

I found this to be an interesting and informative 44 minute webinar. :)

The first twenty minutes is the digest version. :)
They talk a bit about field scaled agriculture applications and do have a humic product they sell to actual large scale "sq. mile farmers".

It consisely covers alot of ground on the subject at hand here, Humates.
The Benefits of Humid Substances in agriculture


Vandenberg :)

Excellent video! Thanks for sharing.
 

Lotto

Well-known member
I grow a niche crop on remote property I own. I have no problem sourcing manure but need more for the size plots I grow on. Manure only goes so far on eighth to quarter acre patches. What I can get in quantity are arborist wood chips from deciduous trees. The same 2 small scale tree companies have been dropping on me for many years. Late spring into early fall when trees are in full leaf are all I take. These piles are turned with a loader many times before using. They can be close to 15 feet high before breaking down. After 2 years they are tilled into my plots. My crop is rotated and cover cropped. Once the chips are worked in, the soil is good to go. No nitrogen depletion, just good organics being broken down. These chips provide the means for humic and fulfic acids to be produced. These soils were not good to begin with, mainly reclaimed coal mine
operations. After many years of wood chips they are now highly productive. Good, healthy plant growth doesn't happen overnight with organic inputs. Once you get your soils right, you will never go back to man made amendments. The crop I grow is an edible, no different needs than cannibis. These chips often go into my container mixes for weed. Once broken down the mycorrhizal fungi is a beautiful sight. Humus is the giddy- up and go for soils. Sorry for the long winded comment, just get excited talking about building soils.

Hey Van, love you're recent threads. Just wondering if they can somehow be consolidated for easy reference. I have zero organizational skills. Maybe the mods can help, just a thought. Thanks again.


 

nono_fr

Active member
About 12 minutes in-to the video he claims that humic substances are not a food source for bioligy but are a substrate for the bioligy.
In the vermicompost there is humic acid,and this is the same . Vermicompost is living soil with living beings ( micro-organism) that will feed the plants .

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1164556306000379
The interactions between earthworms and microorganisms can produce significant quantities of plant growth hormones and humic acids which act as plant regulators. Experiments were designed to evaluate the effects of humic acids extracted from vermicompost and compare them with the action of commercial humic acid in combination with a commercial plant growth hormone, indole acetic acid (IAA) which is a commonly found in vermicomposts. In the first experiments, humic acids were extracted from cattle, food and paper waste vermicomposts. They were applied to a plant growth medium, Metro-Mix360 (MM360), at rates of 0, 250 or 500 mg humates kg−1 dry wt. of MM360, to marigold, pepper, and strawberry plants in the greenhouse. Substitution of humates ranging from 250 to 1000 mg kg−1 MM360 increased the growth of marigold and pepper roots, and increased the growth of roots and numbers of fruits of strawberries significantly. In other experiments, humic acids extracted from food waste vermicomposts were applied at a rate of 500 mg kg−1 dry wt. of MM360, singly or in combination with IAA at a rate of 10−5 μM, to pepper seedlings. This experiment was designed to compare the differences in effects between the most effective dosage rate of humic acid from food waste, a phytohormone (IAA), and a commercial source of humic acid. The numbers of pepper flowers and fruits increased significantly in response to treatment with humic acid, IAA and a combination of humic acid and IAA. Peppers treated with humic acids extracted from food waste vermicomposts produced significantly more fruits and flowers than those treated with commercially-produced humic acids.

Here an interesting pdf ( scientist ) :
EFFECT OF VERMICOMPOST EXTRACT AND VERMICOMPOST-DERIVED HUMIC ACIDS ON SEED GERMINATION AND SEEDLING GROWTH OF HEMP
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...d-Germination-and-Seedling-Growth-of-Hemp.pdf
 

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