The Cannabis Wisdom of Nevil

[CharlesU Farley]

I've been thinking about doing this thread for quite a while but I've been very reluctant because of the virulent SamS versus Nevil feud that seems to spill over into every thread of this type. The title alone will be clickbait for the various trolls, sock puppets, and Karen-types that inhabit ICM just looking for a fight.

That shit ain't happening in this thread.

I'm not a fan boy or an accolyte of Nevil or anyone else for that matter. He did things with cannabis that I totally and completely disagree with... 24-hour light cycles, using chemicals to fuck with the sexuality of cannabis, topping/decapitating a thriving cannabis plant, etc.

I'm familiar with, and have read about damn near all aspects of the Nevil vs. SamS "feud" through my research of NL and to be brutally honest, I could totally and completely give a shit. I am only interested in scientific facts and experience that will help me grow cannabis better, not rumors, innuendos, or personal opinions on either of the two individuals involved.

After I realized I had reversed engineered Northern Lights, I kind of became obsessed with finding as much of the history of its development as I could. That eventually led me to the MNS forum and some of Nevil's postings on it from 2010 - 2011.

Those postings contain massive amounts of useful and practical information for developing better cannabis. I got in the habit of cut and pasting those posts that dealt directly with not only NL but cannabis development in general. In reviewing those posts, I realized that the information is suitable for _all_ varietals of cannabis. So every couple days, I'm going to post what I think are useful tips from him that anybody can use to develop better cannabis.

My plan is to edit what Nevil wrote as little as possible. The majority will be punctuation and making paragraphs to prevent an unreadable Wall 'o Words but I'm also going to edit out particularly inflammatory sections regarding SamS and/or Haze, because I'm just not going to deal with the bullshit that entails in this thread.

Remember, I don't give a shit about any personality conflicts you had with Nevil, what SamS/Nevil told you, who's a narc, who's a thief, etc., so don't trash up this thread with that kind of stuff. There are _many_ threads here on ICM where you can do that, this _ain't_ one of 'em.

I'll start with one that I think is entirely benign and most logical people won't disagree with:

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Nevil
Breeder
Dec 5, 2010
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#87

It's about self empowerment. That's the wonderful thing about selling seeds. Putting good genetics into the hands of the common man created a shift in power away from organised crime. Once you had something good, you didn't really need anyone else.

I remember the frustration of living in Holland in the '70s and not being able to sell the home-grown weed, for want of suitable genetics. I made hash oil from half finished Columbians to make a living. I blew myself up and burned the house down. Things have changed since then.
N.

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This one is a little bit more controversial but makes perfect sense to me:

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Nevil
Breeder
Jan 1, 2011
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#195
People are starting to catch on. Group pollinations are only really practical with highly inbred strains like SK and EP. Many of you will have noticed that most new seed companies start off with a series of SK1 hybrids, basically crossing SK1 to whatever cuttings they can find. It works, but after that they are floundering. After that we enter the realm of...

How to breed with polyhybrids.

Are you paying attention? With polyhybrid matings, it all boils down to the individual. Siblings are not uniform. You see this in the range of types expressed in the females. The males will have a similar range of genotypes. Despite being of mixed blood, individuals still tend to breed true to their own type.

People are polyhybrids. It is quite common for children to look like both parents. Now and again you meet couple who are both singularly unattractive. They produce a ghastly looking baby and ask you, what do you think? I usually say, "It never ceases to amaze me how children capture the essence of both parents in a perfect blend". Nature is like that.

Unless you are doing 1:1 matings with polyhybrids, your results are going to be all over the place. In short, you don't know what you are doing and you'll be unlikely to be able to repeat it unless you keep cuttings of both parents.

I'll get back to this.
N.
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I'll put the quotes by Neville blocked off so it'll be easy to determine exactly what he wrote versus my blatherings.

 

[Artistick Seeds]

Whether we like someone or not, or the experiences they have had, there is necessarily something positive to be learned from them.

The great discoveries of this world throughout the centuries have not come without questionable practices at the ethical level. Today we are happy to benefit from the mass of accumulated knowledge, and happy not to have had to get our hands dirty ourselves.

I will therefore follow your publications with interest, in order to learn more, without controversy.

Thank you for sharing.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

I was going to post one of Nevil's more philosophical posts but I'm a practical man and want to demonstrate how his knowledge has directly affected how I develop cannabis.

I've been using this little tidbit in my current project:

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Nevil
Breeder
Oct 9, 2010
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#12
What I used to like to do is pollinate very early. The seed would set but the plant had more to give so it continues to flower, producing more calyxes. This would tend to lock most of the seeds in the bud so they wouldn't fall out like a fully seeded bud. Seeds produced this way are full size, dark in colour and ripe. The down side was that I'd have to crumble the bud to get the seeds. I worked like a dog making hash to provide you all with well made seeds. I hope that it was appreciated.
N

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Here is a bud from a week or two ago that is a result of this process:

Those seeds will, in fact, be encased in calyxs in the early fertilized stigmas and the resultant seeds will not drop to the ground before the late forming seeds have fully developed.

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Nevil
Breeder
Sep 25, 2010
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#15
As I understand it, pollen is only good for about 3 days. I have had some success keeping the pollen in the fridge, but it soon becomes a hit and miss affair, and I couldn't afford to miss. Pollen will "germinate"(what's the right word?) in the presence of water.
I always hosed down my males prior to use. This causes the pollen which had been shed, to release it's germ-plasm and is no longer a threat. Fresh pollen is then used from newly opened flowers.

<edit problems with pollen via mail paragraph>

We need more research into extending the life span of pollen. Any scientists out there?
N.
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I douche the staminates with water, wait a day or two, and then it's sexy time.

Unlike Neville, I can afford to miss and have stored pollen successfully in the freezer for more than a year:

Since that's what I've been doing the last month, these are the posts that kind of stick out now. When I get in more of a philosophical mood, I post more of his philosophical beliefs as they relate to cannabis.

 

[Tsubaki30]

Hey man

You can put Nevil's old posts in as quotes to stand out from the other text.

So, when you’re typing/making a new post open 'More options..' next to the 'Insert image' tab

and then press the tab that looks like a number “99”. That one creates a field for a cut and paste quote and then the text will show as if you'd be quoting other member's post.

I'll put the quotes by Neville blocked off so it'll be easy to determine exactly what he wrote versus my blatherings.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

Hey man

You can put Nevil's old posts in as quotes to stand out from the other text.

So, when you’re typing/making a new post open 'More options..' next to the 'Insert image' tab

and then press the tab that looks like a number “99”. That one creates a field for a cut and paste quote and then the text will show as if you'd be quoting other member's post.

Too much trouble, if you notice I block off/ separate his quotes with dashes and my edit of his quotes in bold. Been doing it like this for a long time, I'm a dinosaur who doesn't change very often.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

I'm feeling more philosophical today so here are some posts from Nevil that fit that mood. I'm posting this primarily for the Millennial crowd here at ICM, who seem to think measuring every fucking possible thing from pH to EC, PAR to PPFD and every other possible parameter you can record and analyze, is the key to successful cannabis development.

No doubt most of you will think this is touchy-feely, hippie bullshit and that's okay. That's why you can't create cannabis of the caliber that Nevil did.

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Nevil
Breeder
Oct 25, 2010
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#661

In my life I've learned a few things about the mechanism of creation.
First and foremost, "hold the vision in your minds eye". Put all of your senses into it.

Imagine how it looks. Get into the fine detail. Make the visual image as real as you can.

Imagine how it smells and tastes. Compare it to other similar things and imagine how it could be better. Imagine how it makes you feel, this is really important. Fill the idea with positive intent. Imagine the joy of sharing.

The wheels of the universe have already started turning. Grease the wheels, clear the path, act on the synchronistic opportunities that magically appear.

Act. Act. Act.

Share your vision. Allow others to feel your excitement. A vision shared is a vision magnified. It's OUR VISION. Know that it will/has already happened. It's merely a question of time. When you know this, you can relax.

Nature abhors a vacuum.

Oh! I nearly forgot. Be grateful. Your dreams are coming true, why wouldn't you be.

N.



Nevil
Breeder
Jan 12, 2011
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#557

It all boils down to trial and error, observation and judgement. Would my assessment be correct?

Yes it would, however you can tip the odds more in your favour, but there is no substitute for experience. Every time you start a packet of quality seeds, you're at the cutting edge.

What will you do next.

Have you lost elite plants because you weren't prepared? If you have this elite cut, can you conceive of the ideal mate for it? Have you got taste, do you have a vision?

Breeding your own strains is very rewarding.

N.

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The next post will get a whole lot more technical and get into inheritance patterns, dominant and recessive traits, etc.

 

[mr.brunch]

 

[Tsubaki30]

Ha ha wonder what made Nevil wax so lyrical? i sure would like some of that

"..act on the synchronistic opportunities that magically appear."

No matter what we offer to the gods or the devils, if our seed stock is sub par it can't be helped. The "vision" will stay a day dream unless we have good genetics. With poor genetics nothing will just magically appear, i can assure you.

"Nature abhors a vacuum."

Nature loves the vacuum actually.

The cosmic vacuum is what holds things together. It’s the reason behind gravity . nature is constantly trying to collapse into itself, yet if there would be no vacuum nature would not exist. This is why planets are round and why water form drops. The vacuum is what forces everything to spin.

In our universe something is always trying to fill the vacuum. and so the absence of vacuum is nothingness, which is the opposite of nature and existence

 

[CharlesU Farley]

Don't have much time to post these days, irl still kicking my ass. Was doing some research for a problem I'm having and came across a couple of quotes from Nevil that bear repeating. Remembered I started this thread a while back, so I'll do a couple of quick cut 'n pastes.

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Nevil
Breeder
Sep 10, 2010
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#49
It's almost as if the plants are responding more to the growers energy/magnetism then it is the nutrients.

This is an interesting point. In a different time and place and probably a different universe altogether, I used to help people grow. I'd design their grow room, make the hydro mix, supply the cuttings and tell them what to do every step of the way. These set ups were better than my own and they had to do what I said and not what I did.

It should have been better than mine, but it wasn't. Now when I'm faced with a perplexing problem, I generally..... roll a joint. The issue needs to be given serious consideration. Now over the years, I've pondered and pondered rolled a joint and pondered some more (first joint of the day is kicking in). But, staying focussed, the only real difference in the equation is that the plant carers were different. My plants grew up around me. You might argue that maybe the plant resonates to certain frequencies put out by the carer, the way a tuning fork will vibrate spontaneously to the frequency of another that was struck close by.

People have argued that, this mechanism might attune the grower to his plants making him believe that his dope is better than anyone else's (often leads to the I'm a genius or God complex) and this may be true. But they have trouble explaining away all those Cups.

N.

Nevil
Breeder
Jan 21, 2011
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#710
I always thought that people didn't want diversity when they bought a packet of seeds. The general impression that I got from 1000s of customers was that they expected uniformity with a high average standard and at least one spectacular plant per packet of seeds. Few are prepared to sort through several packets of seeds to find a keeper.

Generally it was about helping people smoke the best and make money. If people sought help with other goals I helped them. But there weren't many of them.

As opposed to 25-30 years ago, the world is now full of potent strains and exotic varieties and all breeders are going their own unique direction. It'll be a long time before diversity dies out.
I don't really care about any strain, no matter how diverse it is unless it's good to smoke.

N.

Nevil
Breeder
Dec 24, 2010
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#26
Now where do you go from here if you want to stabilize one of those phenos?

That's a good question Coop. Often choosing another hybrid as a mate that has a duplication of the desired type in the pedigree, but in other respects is an outcross, is the best route ie SSH MH NH CM to name a few off the top of my head. I'd say that most of the phenos that you'd like to stabilise, are the way they are because of some degree of hybrid vigour. Sibling matings lead to greater uniformity in the direction of the selection criteria, but rarely do they compare favourably with the original hybrid as a strain.

1:1 matings with pure strains is the quickest way to failure or success. If all you do is one male to one female each generation, you will fuck it up. I'd always do 6 or more different combinations of siblings 1:1 as a backup. I've had to back trace more than a couple of times. Sometimes the quality clearly comes from one specific plant.

It pays to inbreed to that plant with different parents before moving on to further sibling matings. It help to isolate these specific plants if the matings are 1:1.

The fact is, that working with open pollinated lines is much more of a numbers game. Great if you have a good climate and a number of hectares to work with.

Back in the olden days, people I sold seeds to mostly were growers who were very limited as to how many plants they could grow. Every plant counted, they had to be good. A lot of work went into making the best 1:1 matings with predictable high quality results.

I also gave breeders plenty to work with. G13 Haze was a 1:1 mating as were most of the other varieties I sold. These lines are the building blocks of most breeders catalogues. Those most vocal in their criticism of my methods would often have nothing left to work with if their lines made up of my strains disappeared from their collections. Go figure!

N.

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Maybe the next post can be the technical info I was going to do on this post but not sure when that will be. I've read quite a few things Nevil wrote about land races that are pretty pertinent right now, even though the quotes are over 15 years old now.

 

[mr.brunch]

 

[AmericanFarmer]

I’ve already done this back in April 2023
Copy pasted all his wisdom from the forums to my notes. It’s not complete but I had started on it hope this helps at the least to get our heads together and take from , and build upon in our own breeding programs.
My breeding program is for my personal hobby and enjoyment. I don’t intend nor have any desire to sell beans .
Just a collector of rare genetics and if one day someone behind me or around me will carry on with it.

AF


Breeding from Nevil













The analogy with cheetahs is not a very good one. The only way cannabis compares to mammals is that it has 2 sexes. Plants can stand a good deal more inbreeding than mammals and most plants are by nature self pollinators, but if it has taken 10,000 years for things to come to a head with cheetahs, I think we can stop worrying about it for a while.
If there is a danger of bottlenecking with cannabis, it will come from the fem industry and the common practice of selfing. It's ironic that Chimera should come with the criticism.
Unlike the cheetah, cannabis is grown on every continent on earth and as long as there are male cannabis plants around, the whole issue of bottlenecking is a dead horse.

Outcrossing
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Outcrossing is the practice of introducing unrelated genetic material into a breeding line. It increases genetic diversity, thus reducing the probability of all individuals being subject to disease or reducing genetic abnormalities(only within the first generation). It actually can serve to increase the number of individuals who carry a disease recessively.

An outcross is defined by horse breeders as a mating that does not have a common ancestor in the first 5 removes. All race horses that are considered outcrosses still have numerous duplications of ancestors further back in the pedigree.

A common practise in breeding IBLs is to put siblings into separate groups and inbreed them for 3-5 generations before bring them back together again. Each line can focus on one primary trait, allowing for more rapid advancement of the selected trait. Once the separate IBLs are put together again, only plants that possess all of the bred for characteristics are used for further breeding and the process begins again. Ideally, the recombined lines of the IBL should be sold at this point. Largely however, it's a moot point as few inbred lines are offered to the market by breeders. IBLs are used by breeders to produce hybrids or polyhybrids in order to combine as many of the dominant positive traits as possible in one variety. Hybrid vigour is the biggest contributing factor, when it comes to yield and my experience has shown that the market demands yield (whilst at the same time paying lip-service to the idea of pure strains). The pure strains that I put out in the past were not popular due to the fact that they couldn't compete against the hybrids in many respects.
When I said that I'd risk bottlenecking in my pursuit of quality, I was being facetious. The idea of bottlenecked hybrids is a joke and if lines failed to perform, I wouldn't sell them. Nature (and buyers) does not reward failure and therefore the idea that anyone can cause the cannabis to go through a bottleneck and ruin things for future growers, is delusional. The cannabis seed industry is not responsible for bottlenecking (excepting maybe the fem breeders) but rather a great Diaspora of cannabis genetics.

Loss of pure land races is a bigger threat, but in case this is news to you, the damage had been done (the single convention of '61) long before I started breeding. Nearly all of the popular strains that I'd acquired were already polyhybrids with a broad genetic base. Selective breeding made IBLs out of some of them.
N.

Question for Nevil

How do the progeny of poly-hybrid crosses compare with that of true F1 progeny (crossing 2 separate IBLs). I guess the obvious difference is that the true F1s should be more homogeneous but do you get similar advantages with hybrid vigour and good trait expression/combination from the poly combinations or is it a little more hit and miss?

Also, how do F1 hybrids compare - 2 different backcrossed lines combines vs. 2 different IBLs combined?

Nevil’s response

Good question, it depends on what you hit and miss. In other words, it depends on the individual genotype of both parents. The pheno of the mother will be known to you, you have picked her as the best. Apart from reversing the males, and this only gives you limited information, you really don't know how they are going to breed. The best practice is to select males that are closest to your female in type, size, branching, leaf structure and smell and resin where possible, and then progeny test each one with your selected female. Tedious I know, but that's the job. If you are trying to stabilise a hybrid, your selections in the early stages with determine the degree of success you have later.
One way of influencing the outcome is by the use of line breeding to certain elements in the pedigree while keeping the rest as an outcross, allowing for some degree of hybrid vigour, but doubling up on key elements.
N.

Nev, do you think that, if the genepool becomes bottlenecked to a great extent, that we could still put diversity back in to some extent with skillful breeding because cannabis, by nature, as an outcrossing species is always capable of diversity?
How much diversity do you want in a packet of seeds. I want as many top notch plants as possible and a fairly uniform crop. For those wanting diversity I sold Chi P Variabilis.

If we must talk about saving the gene pool, I made several batches of the few land race varieties that I encountered and donated them, to The University of Wageningen. I think Rob Clark got some too. I donated Maple Leaf, Ruderalis and a few others. I know that there are more articles, but all I can find is this;
Genetic evidence for speciation in Cannabis (Cannabaceae)
by KW Hillig - 2005 - Cited by 25 - Related articles
[authorship attributed to N. Schoenmakers.] Bócsa I. 1999. ... Wageningen Agricultural University, Wageningen, The. Netherlands. de Meijer E.P.M. 1995. ...
SpringerLink - Genetic Resources and Crop Evolution, Volume 52, Number 2

In order to keep diversity, I used all the males and females to produce seed excepting the obvious rejects. This is not selective breeding and is only good for those wishing to start from scratch, or for research.

The whole saving the gene pool issue is being raised to derail things. It's the old "crabs in a bucket" syndrome. One starts to get out and the others pull him down.

What I did for cannabis genetics was to offer more choice of high quality genetics, not less. Quite frankly, I don't give a shit about saving poor genetics.
N.

Britishhempire asks to Nevil

I agree with everything you just said mate. I'll go read that article, sounds intriguing.

By diversity, I was meaning keeping a range of different tastes and highs. I go to Amsterdam and see how generic everything is these days in the shops, and meet other growers and see how generic all the highs are of the strains they grow, most of what people give me to smoke these days has a similar flat stony high, ocassionally someone grows a haze hybrid, but it's all cheese and other skunks and now kushes. Of course, there is still diversity in the Mr nice catalogue and I reckon I could be quite happy exploring the ample diversity wherein for years, but it worries me that slowly but surely we are creeping towards a lack of diversity in the commercial genepool as a whole.

What will accelerate homogenisation is the way 'breeders' today are choosing to work with the same small number of over-hyped 'elite' cuttings, that worries me as much as feminising does.

Nevil responds

Homoginisation is exactly what I see happening. This is what I'd expect from open pollinations or groups of male siblings being used.
Any kid will tell you that if you mix all your coloured plasticine together, it'll end up brown.

Contrary to what our learned friend Gitt thinks, breeding cannabis is much like breeding dogs or horses or anything else with two sexes and if you want to move forward with your complex polyhybrids, you are going to have to deal with things like pedigrees and linebreeding. Pedigrees don't make sense if you are not dealing with individual ancestors. It's not sufficient to say that the grandfather came from a group in that gene pool.

I could offer seeds,
lot A; progeny tested 1:1 mating of the best of the best,
lot B; Gene pool special of all the inferior matings mixed together.
Give me a break. Who wants to buy lot B?
N.

If it isn't a breeder's job to protect our drug pool then whose job is it Nevil?
Are you still harping on about this crap Gitt? What have you done and for whose benefit? The job I gave myself, was to save the genes that I decided were good and put them out there for people who at that time had no access to quality stuff. What do you want me to do, save people from my good genetics? You're seriously loosing me Gitt, I thought you were smarter than this. If you were right, then I wouldn't have one all those cups, and you and everyone else wouldn't be growing stuff descended from my work.
N.

Didn't you read my post on donating the few landraces I found to the University of Wageningen.
Why are you dumping all this shit on me? I've spent most of my life dodging prison for doing what I did. Like many, I've been raided by cops and generally had my life trashed by authorities. I've stuck my neck out further than most and further than you have and to make you happy, I've got to save the genepool as well. I saved the part of the genepool I liked by passing it on to 1000s of people. If my life's work was not good enough for you, well ain't that a shame.
N.

As I see it, people are viewing things from a perspective that hybrids need to be stabilised and must become IBLs. It's the only way I can account for the irrational idea that 1:1 matings are deleterious to the genepool. Gitt's population mechanics ideas might be applicable to that, but the fact is that we are not dealing with a closed stud book like race horses or many of the dog breeds. What we have is an open book and there are still separate lines, landraces and IBLs yet to be discovered. This being the case, I can't see what all the fuss is about.
In order to be of service to the customer, we need to provide seeds that will give superior and predictable results. Most customers are not breeders and so it isn't all that important to them if it is true breeding or not.
What matters is how good is the plant that they grow and what's it smoke like. That's what wins cups.
How breeders can deal with these polyhybrids was where I was trying to go with this.
N.

British hempire says

Actually Nev, it just occured to me that the market has altered a little since your heyday. Back then, I expect most people wanted seeds that produced great plants first and foremost and weren't concerned if they were F1, IBL, whatever, they wanted the maximum performance. These days, a lot of people like to dabble in making their own crosses and have become more informed about breeding, I expect it is mostly these people who are wanting IBLs because they want to breed with them. Also, I've noticed a growing trend the last couple of years of people starting to adopt seed company names like they actually run a seed co when they are just one guy hacking in a closet, you see guys with a couple of years of growing under their belts adopting avatars they have designed themselves that are a seed co logo with a name emblazoned on it like 'Shit-Hot Seeds' or 'Flash Genetics'. They all want to be breeders and I guess that's why they criticise real, established breeders.

Nev, do you think SSH should be stabilised into an IBL? I certainly don't, all those phenos are a godo thing imho, I like having the variation there to sort through and as long as the quality is consistently good throught the phenos, then I see no reason to moan about the variation, I welcome the variation.

I'd personally like to see Kashrocs come back. That thread where he caught Sam out in a lie and hammered him until he tapped out and cried for a moderator, was deeply satisfying to me. It takes a lot to stand up to Sam the way he did.

Hard core haze smokers aren't pussies. I personally think that it elevates your testosterone levels. As such, we are all pretty quick to rise to a perceived challenge, but often we get it wrong. Kashrocks, BH and JessE have all earned my respect in some ways. I'd take it as a personal favour, if you'd all drop the animosity and start again. We're the good guys you know.
N.

Recessive traits can be brought forward through judicious use of line breeding. I'm getting to this. Otherwise I'm not sure what you mean by recessive males. Recessive for what?
N.

Whether people like it or not, the standard practice for improving a breed, is to do close inbreeding to families that have outstanding and often extreme characteristics. Once these characteristics become fixed, usually after several generations, the best members of the line are outcrossed. Of all the outcrosses, often one will stand out (often the reason is because of a common ancestor further back in the pedigree). This is called a "nick".
Further matings are inbred to the nick and line bred to the best ancestor.
I offer this interactive pedigree of the Bullmastiff Torneto, who won numerous championships. WebGeneal 4.6p
You will see how he is line bred to Tailwyndes Thunderstorm. Click on the pedigree to see how he was bred. Tailwyndes Thunderstorm nicked with Boston Blackie. See how TT is inbred to the nick. It is of particular interest to see how close the Tailwynde studs inbreeding is. As often is the case some problems were created, but the successes will be indelibly imprinted on the breed. This breeding tek is found at the top level of most stud breeds of animals and plants. Familiarise yourself with the interactive pedigree provided. This is the future of cannabis breeding IMO.
N.

On the subject of hybrids and stabilising lines, I'd like to say a few words. From the perspective of an experienced and critical smoker, the blending of types can only be done genetically. What I mean to say is that mixing pure Haze weed and pure NL together and smoking it, will not give you the same effect as the hybrid would. The hybrid is better! Inbreeding the hybrid and making F2s and so on will not give you a product that is the equal of the original F1. You may get a different version that is very good, but it won't have that perfect blend of the F1. Subtleties that come from the exact 50-50 blend of the F1 get lost under a layer of more dominant traits that are expressed more and more as you continue to inbreed brothers to sisters.
It's not that I'm against this tek to create an IBL. I know it to be effective, it's just that if you have a F1 hybrid that excels be cause it's a blend of polar opposites, you won't hold on to that by inbreeding to siblings. This method of creating IBLs is more suited to hybrids that are put together because of their similarity of type.
N.

about your example haze x NL, is this because the F2 will show a greater diversity than an F2 from P1 hybrids and so a a lot more of phenotypes ?
The F2 will show more diversity but few will be the blend that the parents were. Nevertheless, despite or because of the lack of uniformity extreme examples can sill be found. From the F3 onward, things start to homogenise in a less favourable way. Usually, the smell and taste suffer the most.
N.

if you select F2 plants showing taste and aroma you like, it will be difficult to maintain these genes ? i suppose you cant true bred a line for aroma in this case...
We were discussing aromas based on the blending of opposites and then inbreeding siblings. There are other ways.
N.

The NL2 was IMO a NL version of Kush. More weight and that puffed up indica type of bud that NL5 had. The taste was very similar to the Kush4 that I remember as coming from Ortega. (correct me if I'm wrong Jim).The Ortega type was more what I would describe as a typical landrace although fairly consistent. I used an F4 NL2 male over the Kush4 to produce a vigorous hybrid that was true to type. It was the Kush4 that made me realise that the NL2 was primarily a Kush. The NL2 needed some fresh blood as the F5 wasn't as good as the F4. I had planned to take the Hybrid back to NL2 and as the NL2 had already been released I expected others would do the same. I must be living in my own world as it doesn't appear that anyone saw the connection that seemed obvious to me.
I never got any Kush from Sam. I did get another Afghan from him that was unrelated to A#1. It a was coarse large seeded variety with big calyxes, but lacking potency. I used that in the Black Domina (25%).
All the NL lines were from seed not cuttings, as was the Kush4.
N.

I have had a male that had as much resin as any female I've seen and it was all over not just the male flower but the stem as well.
That's what I look for as well as the smell which is usually just as apparent. Had you done a couple of 1:1 matings with this male, it might have been interesting to reinforce this male through doubling up on it in future matings. It really sucks to loose things we had hopes for, most of us know about that.
N.

To double up, would you do something like this?

(Haze x Dawg) x (Skunk x Dawg)

Also, would a backcross also be worth trying to see if the high resin trait could be made truebreeding? e.g.:

(Skunk x Dawg) x Dawg
When ever a highly desirable characteristic pops up, it pays to back cross it to both parents to determine which one passed on the genes or whether it was the combination that produced the effect. In order to reinforce a certain trait from an individual female plant, I would try various combinations within the family as well as outcrossing it to different males of the same type outside the family. The crossing of opposite types is more appealing when looking for a blend of characteristics in order to create something different than both parents.
N.

it all boils down to trial and error, observation and judgement. Would my assessment be correct?
Yes it would, however you can tip the odds more in your favour, but there is no substitute for experience. Every time you start a packet of quality seeds, you're at the cutting edge. What will you do next. Have you lost elite plants because you weren't prepared? If you have this elite cut, can you conceive of the ideal mate for it? Have you got taste, do you have a vision? Breeding your own strains is very rewarding.
N.

Yes I've read it. It sounds like someone has misinterpreted a theory of mine, but the late flowering thing is off base. You pick males that fall into the category of the pheno you seek. This varies according to type. I certainly would never have picked a late male EP in 20 gens. I also wouldn't pick the earliest NH male, wrong pheno.
N.

Generally you need to test males to discover their worth. It's not that they are better. They are just harder to find. Even reversing the males sex will only give you so much info. Yield is the hardest to determine without testing. Using a group of males is often the best ppl can do when there is no time or space to test them.
N.

Hearing this makes me wonder why breeding females alone would not be quicker to get whatever trait you're looking for. Baring the"Breeding Just Females Is Evil and Leads to Satan" argument.
It's a fair question. There's a whole fem thread and the question is still not answered to my satisfaction. I'm planning to do a couple of test fem matings, to see what happens myself. I couldn't get NL5 to produce pollen, I'll try a daughter. I think I'll ask Cabron for help with the tek. He seems to be getting it right.
N.

a group of males will provide a wider profile of plants when used with only the best few females it would seem and eventually the line will improve towards those females genotypes. i am right on this?
More often than not it doesn't. An individual male can shape a line's destiny as much as a female. One or two random wrong choices and it's over. It happens with 1:1 matings too, but if you know where the defect crept in, you can go back and start again avoiding that plant. The reverse is also true, if you know which plant was responsible for a leap forward, you can double up on it.
N.

From my perspective, the biggest potential problem with fems is intersex traits being amplified. I want to see if this is true. One of the biggest advantages would be the possible increase in yield, as until now, the selective pressure in this regard has only come from the females. Making fem hybrids is still a 1:1 mating and this is the fastest way forward IMO. Without an open mind, we learn nothing new. I want to know.
N.

i should think amplifying the problem is exactly what we want to do ,,
if its there it will rear its ugly head and therefore avoid one going down futher lines to only find that out ... ??

oops edit ,,
and i should say amplifying the attribute also . as you have put it nevil .
we will also find the faults doubling up as well at the attibutes ??
My concern is that pollen can only be obtained from intersex females. This may mean that if you can make fems, you shouldn't. But I don't know.
N.

The NL strains were grown and bred under lights in small spaces. These were among the most advanced indoor lines on the planet. Small growers, like many of you created them. Good work can be done with small numbers.
I'd suggest that instead of using the 3 or 4 best males as a group, you use each one individually on different buds on the plant.
Another point is that you can try making your own hybrids. This is often more rewarding than trying to clean up a line into an IBL.
I applaud Joshua's efforts to encourage everyone to breed cannabis. When everyone breeds cannabis, the genetic revolution will come. Expect miracles, they happen all the time.
N.

the variegated ones tend to be less vigorous
They were weaker. Only the green parts of the plant produce energy.
N.

If that public could see Luther Burbank burning up ten thousand discarded
plants, if it could see his ten thousand-dollar wood-pile that represented the failures
necessary to produce success, it would understand more of his method."
Few plants that I grew got the chance to reproduce, most became hash and compost. A bottleneck some would say, maybe they said the same to Burbank, but I worked hard for that bottleneck. I see the same phenos that I selected popping up in the photos of plants in your rooms. To me that's success and when I buy some stash from an unknown kid in a strange city and I recognise it, I think to myself, they can say what they want...
N.
PS I have been thinking about doing potatoes. I love potatoes. Potatoes are an excellent food and will get you through hard times better than most cheap foods. I need land.
N.

As cannabis slowly gains acceptance as a ligitimate enterprise, breeders will have to lift their game. Just look at the serious breeders of anything legal, Chrysanthemums, birds, dogs, horses etc. Read some of the books written by these people. Study the online pedigree data bases, we've got some catching up to do. Pedigrees are a written record of what master breeders did, that was successful. Your insights will not come from a scientific journal. Books with catchy titles like "Patterns of Greatness" and "Inbreeding to Superior Females" will steer you in the right direction.
N.

We are not talking about doing a 1:1 mating of cannabis and jumping into a spaceship and trying to maintain a complete population on the new homeworld with just those seeds, but even so, I believe that I could manage. 20 or 30 years of inbreeding hasn't killed any lines that I know of.
You seem to be missing the point. The best plant in a field of 1000s of open pollinated plants, still only has one father and one mother. What benefit is it that you grew all those inferior plants from inferior fathers,, if they are not included in future generations?
None! Or were you wanting to include these inferior genetics in your breeding program? It takes a lot longer that way.
Don't you get it? Cannabis is not in danger of extinction. It's everywhere! Landraces are not in danger of extinction, the best inbred lines developed from these landraces by farmers and breeders are and for the most part, you're too late. Not to worry, new IBLs can and are being created as we speak. The varied cannabis genetics that are being spread all over the world and being bred by passionate people as yourself, is the guarantee that your fears will never be realised.
N

then personally I'd self that plant! but still have the seeds from the OP for the future!. and it could have many fathers not just one.
And you should go right ahead. But that special plant could have many mates, not many fathers and when you do these matings, I've found it handy to know which are the exact siblings of the best plant, rather than stare at a bag of mixed seed.
I also had backup seeds from the matings that proved to be inferior, but that's all they are, inferior backups. If all goes well you never use them, but if you fuck up, you don't go any further back than you need to.
There are other ways to go than IBLs you know.
N.

I always thought that people didn't want diversity when they bought a packet of seeds. The general impression that I got from 1000s of customers was that they expected uniformity with a high average standard and at least one spectacular plant per packet of seeds. Few are prepared to sort through several packets of seeds to find a keeper.
Generally it was about helping people smoke the best and make money. If people sought help with other goals I helped them. But there weren't many of them.
As opposed to 25-30 years ago, the world is now full of potent strains and exotic varieties and all breeders are going their own unique direction. It'll be a long time before diversity dies out.
I don't really care about any strain, no matter how diverse it is unless it's good to smoke.
N.

Shantibaba how he selects MALES

Taken from Page 63 of Treating Yourself issue 25...

1. Resin Production and Potency – the quickness, the amount and where it is being produced will all be factors. An eye glass will be the most accurate means to view this trait.
2. Aroma – if there is a distinct aroma or something interesting to the nose.
3. Quickness to flower and release of pollen maturation and speed to reach pollen dispersal.
4. Internode spacing – based on the Fibonacci ratio of 1:1.6, this ratio is used in many applications, one of which is a rating of beauty and another in stability and consistency of some genetic factors in a plants makeup.
5. Leaf structure and Stature – whether it is more leaning to sativa or indica and how the plant grows in visible structure.
6. Resistance to hermaphrodism – no visible signs that the male flower has any naturally occurring female pistilates combined within the male flower.
7. Vigor and fitness – visible factors that show the plant to behave in a healthy normal growth pattern.
8. Depth of coloration – of the plant from lime green to deep dark green (ornamental trait)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Taken from the MNS article on hobby breeding by Shanti...

The importance of selecting plants for the traits that are useful to the breeder/grower is the main reason genetics have evolved as they have. Male plants of this species need to be carefully selected to avoid a lot of laborious work, which means one will need to do a lot of testing of F1 seed made from a particular male to verify if the sex linked traits are real or not. Males that auto flower irrespective of daylight hours are normally eliminated to insure against hermaphroditism or unwanted male traits. Males that flower too quickly or too tall are also not the best for breeding since they put too much energy into fiber production which is not the trait one is looking for in a medicinal plant. Males that have large hollow main stems are sought out rather than males that are more pith-filled stems - the main reason are that large hollow stemmed males are better THC producers than other plants. Males that produce tight floral clusters rather than airy sparse floral clusters are usually better to breed with. Finally if you rub your fingers against the stem of a developing male and are able to get strong odors or aromas (terpines) you will be advised to use these males as trichrome production and flavor are directly related to plants that produce odors early on. There are several other traits to look for in a male but these are rather advanced and need microscope help which is not really relevant for the hobby grower/breeder.

•

Reactions:
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B
BobbyDigital
Guest

• Dec 16, 2010
•
• #2
Thanks for the post HHHG, I'm pretty sure I've read that before, because I remember the last sentence clearly:

"There are several other traits to look for in a male but these are rather advanced and need microscope help which is not really relevant for the hobby grower/breeder."

I really wanted to know what techniques he is speaking about here. Any chance for extra explanation from Shanti?

 

[CharlesU Farley]

I’ve already done this back in April 2023

Good to know I'm not the only one with OCD/ADHD.

Copy pasted all his wisdom from the forums to my notes. It’s not complete but I had started on it hope this helps at the least to get our heads together and take from , and build upon in our own breeding programs.

When I was doing my deep dive down the Rabbit Hole of NL, I kept on coming up on pearls of wisdom from Nevil that had nothing to do with NL, so I started doing the copy/paste thing to save things since my memory is so fucked now.

My breeding program is for my personal hobby and enjoyment. I don’t intend nor have any desire to sell beans .
Just a collector of rare genetics and if one day someone behind me or around me will carry on with it.

Right there with you brother! Have never sold anything cannabis related, always prefer to turn people on for free rather than making money.

Everything I'm doing now, including the website, is to document what I've done and how I've done it so there will be a true and accurate record, not some bullshit made up stories like is so common these days. My kids and grandkids can continue the work I've done if they want or sell/market what I've done... after I'm dead.

Thanks for the post! It's great to know I'm not the only one who does a deep dive down the Rabbit Hole.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

Going to post some quotes from Nevil now that I most certainly to the fuck do not agree with. But guess what, I learn more from people I disagree with than those who agree with me. For me personally, I think fucking with the sexuality of cannabis is abhorrent:

Why I don't believe in f-cking with the sexuality of cannabis

I don't care how outstanding my pistillate plants are, the staminate plants always bring something to the mix the pistillate plants just don't possess: An intensity and a vigor that is quite unique. If you don't have the patience and skill to develop cannabis without chemical manipulation of...

www.icmag.com

But it is obviously a tool to be used for those who want to use it, I just choose not to. Here's some selected quotes from Nevil on the topic from the MNS forum

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Nevil
Breeder
Aug 18, 2010
Add bookmark
#37
Thanks for your response krk.

Clearly fems are useful to some people in certain circumstances. I'm not calling for a ban, I merely wish to point out some of the possible consequences. A good case in point is Skunk #1. I strongly suspect that at some point the seed used was the result of a selfed plant. Having gone through this genetic bottleneck, Sk1 remains the most prone to hermaphroditic tendencies.

If you got hermaphrodites from "shit", it's because there is Skunk in it's pedigree. As a seed breeder, I was always on the lookout for Skunks going Hermaphrodite. Plant sexuality is still poorly understood (at least by me) and there are a number of triggers for this often latent tendency.

But you can't tell me that everyone that buys fem seed is going to stress test it as a professional would before passing the genetics on. People who fear that the gene pool may become polluted with excess hermaphrodites are not delusional.

At Sensi, I saw a large grow room full of Hemp. All hermaphrodites, about 50% male and 50% female on one plant. It'd make you want to puke.
At the same time, I'm against closed minds. Please keep us posted


Nevil
Breeder
Aug 17, 2010
Add bookmark
#78
Hi Brock 1
Ethylene (fruiting hormone) is what I used to turn Haze C male into a female. I remember plucking calyxes of the plant to smoke it for the first time. An enlightening experience.
GA3 is what I used to get "females" to produce pollen.

Re vortex bottles, I have the first one going clockwise and the lower one anti clockwise

Nevil
Breeder
Aug 15, 2010
Add bookmark
#11
Just a few thoughts on feminised seed.

I've used fruiting hormones on HzC male to get it to produce female flowers. HzC squared. We still have some of these old seeds. They produced real males and real females.

I've used Gibberelic acid on NL5 to try to get it to produce male flowers. It did, about 5 flowers in a whole room full. The Anthers did NOT contain pollen. NL5 was a true female. A true female will not produce pollen. The ability to produce pollen is a hermaphroditic trait, which may be suppressed, but must be present to produce pollen.

There is a use for feminised seed in breeding, you get to see what the "males" phenotype is before crossing. 50% of the offspring will be true females, the only way to tell is to try and get pollen from the selected female. If it won't produce pollen it's a true female.

There is a better way to do things and that is to feminise the male to check the phenotype. I did this with my Red and Blue lines of Sk1 and got great results.
N.

Nevil
Breeder
Aug 15, 2010
Add bookmark
#35
Well BLB51, others will have to testify as to what I've accomplished. All I've got to go on is subjective analysis. It never ceases to amaze me that so many people agree with my determinations.

As to what I have overcome, It's been a rough ride, but I'm still standing neither broken nor bowed.

As to the Future, if there is support enough, maybe I'll come out and do a bit more work.

Nevil
Breeder
Aug 20, 2010
Add bookmark
#87
Let me explain my thoughts a little further Kopite, re feminised seeds.
The best fem seeds would not be selfed! If I wanted to produce fems, I'd start with a true "lady" Say NL5. This would be represented by XX.

The latent hermaphrodite I would choose would be one that doesn't show signs of masculinity under normal circumstances, but can be induced to produce some pollen when treated with hormones. Nevertheless, this parent would be represented by XX'.

The X' represent the sex chromosome that carrying the latent hermaphrodite gene.

Therefore XX x XX' will give you 50% XX' and 50% XX(true females).
A female plant carrying a latent hermaphrodite gene when selfed is represented by the following. XX' x XX'. This will give you 50% XX', 25% XX (true female) and 25% X'X' ( strongly hermaphroditic)..
I know that this is an over simplification because of the various types and degrees of hermaphroditism, but in broad lines it will hold true to what ever degree the hermaphroditism is displayed.

NL5 was not sterile, the world is awash with it's progeny. It could be induced to produce male flowers, but the pollen sacks were empty. A true female

Nevil


Breeder
Aug 23, 2010
Add bookmark
#23
So we should use this thread to discuss herms further, not the grail thread.

"so to me Nev is stating a reversed fem that sheds pollen is a latent herm? where I say that is wrong."

You state your position more concisely. Now we are getting somewhere! I don't mind if you have a different opinion than me. At the very least, it pushes me to clarify my position and it may expose flaws in my logic. In this case I learn something. If I disagree with you, it is not an attack on you personally. I respect people with passion, but let's all be open minded.

How do you explain a female that won't produce pollen?
N.

Nevil
Breeder
Aug 23, 2010
Add bookmark
#102
"I will say to produce XX x XX I'd find the plants that are stress resistant self them to reveal all about them and reverse the chosen ones, perhaps I should just be using these "true females" perhaps not? but then I should be using these for all breeding by that logic."
Kopite

Well I glad that you are stating your position. I'm assuming that you believe that XX plants are reversible. I don't believe this to be true. My theory is that any female that produces pollen is by definition XX'. Males can also be X'Y and then all of the daughters are herms. That's why fems worry me. You see I like males ( In a non homo-erotic kind of way). It was the Haze males that gave us so much, not the females.
Sex reversal is a tool. I preferred to turn the Skunk males into ladyboys. When I couldn't get certain females to go butch, I formed my opinions and let it go. I am not a world authority on Fems, I've never made them professionally or sold fem seeds. There are those that do, perhaps they would like to voice their opinions. I may learn something.
N.

Nevil
Breeder
Aug 22, 2010
Add bookmark
#10
When breeding Skunks I used a very effective method. I'd spray the males with ethylene (it's the same hormone that comes off ripening fruit) a few times until they partially reversed. Enough to show me gland structure, resin production and smell.

If you want to talk about genetic bottlenecking, SK1 is a classic case. The best line that I got from Sam, was pretty bloody good. I would say that that was his crowning achievement. I separated 2 lines from the best single parent mating, and kept them appart. One line had Red labels and the other Blue. I kept doing single parent matings using the above mentioned tek. The plan was to put them back together and then give them out. I'm sure that SB has used these wisely.
N

Nevil
Breeder
Aug 22, 2010
Add bookmark
#91
Quote:
NL5 was not sterile, the world is awash with it's progeny. It could be induced to produce male flowers, but the pollen sacks were empty. A true female.
End Quote
"refering to this comment again.. because the NL5 clone could bare seeds is of no relation to the fact that when reversed it cannot produce viable pollen.. they are different functions are they not?"

You are twisting things around Kopite. It is not the function of a female to produce pollen, The fact that it couldn't be induced proves it's femininity. You say the fact that it reversed says enough. I didn't say that it reversed, I said that I got about 5 single flowers that didn't produce pollen, in a room full of plants that refused to change sex.

Pick a random guy, say Arnold Schwartzenegger. Pump him full of oestrogen and he might grow tits ( didn't he make a movie about that?), but he wont grow ovaries and produce eggs. (I was going to use Hillary Clinton's scrotum as an example but she didn't make the movie).

I'm not trying to dissuade you from a path you would like to explore, I'm just trying to point out the pitfalls as I see them. Between you me and the rest of the world, I'm a great believer in inbreeding. I've actually got a couple of cousins.... but I'm going off track.

Parthenogenisis is not the correct term for selfing. It means biological reproduction that involves development of a female (rarely a male) gamete (sex cell) without fertilisation. It occurs commonly among lower plants. Cannabis is not a lower plant.

A hermaphrodite is a plant or animal that has reproductive organs normally associated with both male and female sexes, enabling a form of sexual reproduction.

But let's not get hung up on definitions, if you feel that you can make rapid progress using this method, then go forth and show us how it's done.
N.
Ps
I've got to learn how to use the quote button selectively

Nevil
Breeder

--------------------------------------------------------------------

As I said in one of the previous post, the _only_ editing I do whatsoever on Nevil's posts are the formation of paragraphs to make it easier to read. And also to prevent a "Wall 'o Words" that I don't think anyone else other than me and American Farmer would be willing to plow through.

On some of these quotes, I really wanted to bold / italicize certain sentences to make a point I agree with but again, I want to keep this as close to the original content as possible.

 

[AmericanFarmer]

Good to know I'm not the only one with OCD/ADHD.


When I was doing my deep dive down the Rabbit Hole of NL, I kept on coming up on pearls of wisdom from Nevil that had nothing to do with NL, so I started doing the copy/paste thing to save things since my memory is so fucked now.

Right there with you brother! Have never sold anything cannabis related, always prefer to turn people on for free rather than making money.

Everything I'm doing now, including the website, is to document what I've done and how I've done it so there will be a true and accurate record, not some bullshit made up stories like is so common these days. My kids and grandkids can continue the work I've done if they want or sell/market what I've done... after I'm dead.

Thanks for the post! It's great to know I'm not the only one who does a deep dive down the Rabbit Hole.

That’s me !!!

Also I wanted to make sure I had a reference for my personal note books, as I was reading this several years ago I thought to myself If Nevil is going to drop ALL the knowledge bombs I might as well take them to heart. A lot of young people today don’t even care or realize when an Elder is giving them free knowledge to avoid going to the school of hard knocks! I try to avoid that school if possible!
I was told by my WW2 welding mentor years ago he always told me “The student hasn’t learned what the Teacher hasn’t taught “
If class is in session I’m ALL ears!

Especially when we have the technology at our fingertips, from reading Nevil’s posts he was having a hard time just typing his thoughts down on a PC so if he went through ALL of that trouble I was damn sure going to make sure that he wasn’t wasting his energy ( in the future someone was taking notes ! ) wether he realized at the time or not !

Good on you Mr Farley for making the thread. And sharing knowledge with the community.
Respect
AF

 

[CharlesU Farley]

I've been trying to find a quote from Nevil where he explains he set up a complete growroom/environment and provided his seeds to another person and the cannabis was not anywhere close to his quality, even though the person was following his exact methods/hydroponic formulas. I wanted to make a point about karma/attitude being the most important quality of develop9ing cannabis but I can't locate it now.

But I did find this jewel that's relevant to another thread I participate in so think it's appropriate here:

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Nevil
Breeder
Nov 6, 2010
Add bookmark
#19

But on the subject of breeding and good breeders of cannabis, I'd like to share a few thoughts. I was on the Greenhouse ripping another strain... thread and it didn't feel like the appropriate place to share feelings From the Heart.

What constitutes a champion breeder? And this applies to the breeding of everything;

The abilitity to breed a specimen that more closely approaches the ideal standard, more than any other.
So what's the ideal standard in cannabis? Well that's a question of perspective isn't it?

Different strokes for different folks sort of thing. But cutting through all the crap, it's about feeling! We smoke dope because it makes us feel different, and that's where we live. We live in the moment with our feelings (Ahhhh!) I know, I said the "F" word, but we have to face it. Our feelings generate thoughts. Our perception of the past is coloured by our feelings. When we are joyous, we can only remember the good things in our life and we know that we've had a charmed life and all possible futures seem rosey. And when we are despondent, we can only remember a life full of failure and death even seems like a blessing. It's who we are, creators creating a multiverse of different pasts and different futures from moment to moment to moment, all based on how we are feeling, and most of us don't even take responsibility for the feelings we have and therefore responsibility for the reality we create. OK, I'm starting to freak myself out, so back to the point.

What we smoke influences how we feel. The differences between us are, how we want to feel and where we are coming from. What we have in common, is that we wanted to change how we were feeling, which ultimately means that we were in some way experiencing some form of discomfort (pain), be it emotional pain, spiritual pain or physical pain. All pain is a consequence of not being in alignment with our natural selves. In smoking cannabis, we are using a herbal remedy. A natural remedy I might add. I personally see it as Gods gift to remind us of who we really are! The natural me likes to ponder these things.

We have different categories of cannabis. From "insomniacs delight" indica to the space cadet's "flight of the navigator" sativa.

The ability to determine what quality is for each specific type, is dependant on the breeder's sensitivity and the ability to project himself into the customers shoes. Empathy! How else can you imagine what somebody else would like? Of course you have to love smoking too.

Now someone who is merely chasing money is never really going to be a champion breeder. At best, he might make a lot of money. You can put rings on your fingers and bells on your toes, but if you're a lizard, there really is no hope of creating a masterpiece, except in terms of yield.

Empathy is not super human. I define it as very human. Before anyone accuses me of arrogance, I'd like to say that I consider myself a very human being. I can identify with the existential junky to the golden light beings that I met on a trip. Of course there will be those who say, that I smoke too much! But as I said, I like to smoke and ponder things.

There is one more thing that I need to add. No man actually created THC or any of the other compounds that give us the highs we like. They were there, we're just selecting from a banquet that has been gifted to us.
N

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Eventually, I'll find the quote I'm looking for because It will illustrate my emphasis on the _art_ of developing cannabis verses the _science_ of developing cannabis but the one above serves the same purpose for now.

 

[mr.brunch]

I've been trying to find a quote from Nevil where he explains he set up a complete growroom/environment and provided his seeds to another person and the cannabis was not anywhere close to his quality, even though the person was following his exact methods/hydroponic formulas. I wanted to make a point about karma/attitude being the most important quality of develop9ing cannabis but I can't locate it now.

But I did find this jewel that's relevant to another thread I participate in so think it's appropriate here:

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Nevil
Breeder
Nov 6, 2010
Add bookmark
#19

But on the subject of breeding and good breeders of cannabis, I'd like to share a few thoughts. I was on the Greenhouse ripping another strain... thread and it didn't feel like the appropriate place to share feelings From the Heart.

What constitutes a champion breeder? And this applies to the breeding of everything;

The abilitity to breed a specimen that more closely approaches the ideal standard, more than any other.
So what's the ideal standard in cannabis? Well that's a question of perspective isn't it?

Different strokes for different folks sort of thing. But cutting through all the crap, it's about feeling! We smoke dope because it makes us feel different, and that's where we live. We live in the moment with our feelings (Ahhhh!) I know, I said the "F" word, but we have to face it. Our feelings generate thoughts. Our perception of the past is coloured by our feelings. When we are joyous, we can only remember the good things in our life and we know that we've had a charmed life and all possible futures seem rosey. And when we are despondent, we can only remember a life full of failure and death even seems like a blessing. It's who we are, creators creating a multiverse of different pasts and different futures from moment to moment to moment, all based on how we are feeling, and most of us don't even take responsibility for the feelings we have and therefore responsibility for the reality we create. OK, I'm starting to freak myself out, so back to the point.

What we smoke influences how we feel. The differences between us are, how we want to feel and where we are coming from. What we have in common, is that we wanted to change how we were feeling, which ultimately means that we were in some way experiencing some form of discomfort (pain), be it emotional pain, spiritual pain or physical pain. All pain is a consequence of not being in alignment with our natural selves. In smoking cannabis, we are using a herbal remedy. A natural remedy I might add. I personally see it as Gods gift to remind us of who we really are! The natural me likes to ponder these things.

We have different categories of cannabis. From "insomniacs delight" indica to the space cadet's "flight of the navigator" sativa.

The ability to determine what quality is for each specific type, is dependant on the breeder's sensitivity and the ability to project himself into the customers shoes. Empathy! How else can you imagine what somebody else would like? Of course you have to love smoking too.

Now someone who is merely chasing money is never really going to be a champion breeder. At best, he might make a lot of money. You can put rings on your fingers and bells on your toes, but if you're a lizard, there really is no hope of creating a masterpiece, except in terms of yield.

Empathy is not super human. I define it as very human. Before anyone accuses me of arrogance, I'd like to say that I consider myself a very human being. I can identify with the existential junky to the golden light beings that I met on a trip. Of course there will be those who say, that I smoke too much! But as I said, I like to smoke and ponder things.

There is one more thing that I need to add. No man actually created THC or any of the other compounds that give us the highs we like. They were there, we're just selecting from a banquet that has been gifted to us.
N

______________________________________________________________________________________________________

Eventually, I'll find the quote I'm looking for because It will illustrate my emphasis on the _art_ of developing cannabis verses the _science_ of developing cannabis but the one above serves the same purpose for now.

From your post above, may be what you’re seeking:

Nevil
Breeder
Sep 10, 2010
Add bookmark
#49
It's almost as if the plants are responding more to the growers energy/magnetism then it is the nutrients.

This is an interesting point. In a different time and place and probably a different universe altogether, I used to help people grow. I'd design their grow room, make the hydro mix, supply the cuttings and tell them what to do every step of the way. These set ups were better than my own and they had to do what I said and not what I did.

It should have been better than mine, but it wasn't. Now when I'm faced with a perplexing problem, I generally..... roll a joint. The issue needs to be given serious consideration. Now over the years, I've pondered and pondered rolled a joint and pondered some more (first joint of the day is kicking in). But, staying focussed, the only real difference in the equation is that the plant carers were different. My plants grew up around me. You might argue that maybe the plant resonates to certain frequencies put out by the carer, the way a tuning fork will vibrate spontaneously to the frequency of another that was struck close by.

People have argued that, this mechanism might attune the grower to his plants making him believe that his dope is better than anyone else's (often leads to the I'm a genius or God complex) and this may be true. But they have trouble explaining away all those Cups.

N.

 

[CharlesU Farley]

From your post above, may be what you’re seeking:

Nevil
Breeder
Sep 10, 2010
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#49
It's almost as if the plants are responding more to the growers energy/magnetism then it is the nutrients.

This is an interesting point. In a different time and place and probably a different universe altogether, I used to help people grow. I'd design their grow room, make the hydro mix, supply the cuttings and tell them what to do every step of the way. These set ups were better than my own and they had to do what I said and not what I did.

It should have been better than mine, but it wasn't. Now when I'm faced with a perplexing problem, I generally..... roll a joint. The issue needs to be given serious consideration. Now over the years, I've pondered and pondered rolled a joint and pondered some more (first joint of the day is kicking in). But, staying focussed, the only real difference in the equation is that the plant carers were different. My plants grew up around me. You might argue that maybe the plant resonates to certain frequencies put out by the carer, the way a tuning fork will vibrate spontaneously to the frequency of another that was struck close by.

People have argued that, this mechanism might attune the grower to his plants making him believe that his dope is better than anyone else's (often leads to the I'm a genius or God complex) and this may be true. But they have trouble explaining away all those Cups.

N.

Thank you!!!!

 

[mr.brunch]

Thank you!!!!

No worries- i found it in your post at the top of the page

 

[CharlesU Farley]

No worries- i found it in your post at the top of the page

Now that's too funny! Guess it's one point I've already made/emphasized.

This getting old shit, with subsequent memory loss, sucks and is definitely not for pussies.

 

[FTL]

Have to say, I’m really enjoying this thread of Nevil-isms.

Nice work Charles and everyone else, keep it up