THCA VS THC

[Truthman]

Eating fresh buds or resin is a waste of the product, THC is found in plants in the form of THCA, the acid form of THC, and THCA is not very active when eaten. Decarboxylize the THCA to THC with heat by cooking and the THC is potent when eaten. Mix with an oil or fat or alcohol as a carrier and eat on an empty stomach for fastest effects.

-SamS

Sam, this is the post that started all this and as you continued posting you changed your tune:

http://icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=95162&page=1&pp=15

"Eating fresh buds or resin is a waste of the product, THC is found in plants in the form of THCA, the acid form of THC, and THCA is not very active when eaten. Decarboxylize the THCA to THC with heat by cooking and the THC is potent when eaten. Mix with an oil or fat or alcohol as a carrier and eat on an empty stomach for fastest effects.

-SamS"

I'm done because you are constantly redirecting the debate to go towards something else so you can "win" and I'm not going to let you do it to me like you've done to others.

My whole point was that you CAN eat fresh herb and still get high whereas you said it was a waste and it needed to be heated. Now you changed the tune and saying that which was in stronger which is crazy because this had nothing to do what the debate was about and has always been about when me and you go back and forth with this. You are trying to complicate everything when the debate is simple, "CAN YOU EAT FRESH HERB AND GET HIGH?". NOTHING ELSE.

You obviously see for yourself that people have gotten high off of just plain herb, dry sift, and hash and they were not just slightly high so don't come back saying but is it stronger than being decarboxylated or any other nonsense that has nothing to do with this debate. You asked me to find people who tried it raw with the avocado and got high and I DID. I guess you thought I was lying or something. This is wild how you just argue instead of listening and then try to make it seem like you want to see if things work when in reality you don't care because this argument as well as others is nothing new its just the people asking them that are and they don't know the history of the debates. This is tiring. It's like dealing with a child who doesn't want to listen to anybody else and thinks he's right and be a know it all. NO OFFENSE.

I'm done. Peace.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I NEVER SAID YOU CAN NOT GET HIGH FROM EATING RAW HERB, THESE ARE WORDS YOU PUT IN MY MOUTH.
I said it was a waste.

I guess it is true that you can eat raw Cannabis and it will get you a bit stoned, I guess I was trying to point out to you that raw bud is mostly THCA and THCA is not very active compared to THC. And it is a waste to eat raw herb unless you have a good reason to do so.
I can see you do not want to try anything different.
You suggested people try eating raw buds, I said it was a waste compared to decarboxylted bud.
I also did not mention that Decarboxylation (separation of CO2) to the phenolic form occurs readily over time, upon heating or under alkaline conditions. You say lemon juice, an acid does it. I doubt that is true.
If you check the link above in my last post you can see what I say is true.

-SamS

 

[Truthman]

Sam, this has nothing to do with ME trying anything different all I was doing was showing a different way of consuming cannabis since everywhere you look people say that the only way to get high was heating it. I'm actually the one who is different from others.

I'm not here to debate with you all the time because I respect you BUT that doesn't mean I'm going to let you twist my words or tell me I don't know what I'm talking about or make it seem like I'm lying when I'm not.

Anyway, hope to see you in november. Peace.

 

[mazzakush]

"excuse me.." *raises hand shyly...

I may be misinformed but, I thought THCV was the uncarboxylated form of THC.

and does anyone have links to hard solid numbers on the temperature of decarboxylation. with a link? cause I"ve read anything from 175 F to 350 F from sources like jorge cervantes and other web shit. ANyone.... bueller?

 

[Haps]

I have been experimenting with this for several years now, with myself as the only subject, so my claim to validity ends at my door. I will not make any herbal edibles without deoxycarbolation, any more, it is almost a waste of time, not quite. I get a 2X increase with the deoxy, again rated by my own trips and overdoses.

I do 325 for 5-10 minutes, depending on the fullness of my pan in the toaster oven. And it reeks to high heaven, I have to turn my carbon scubber on for an hour. I was worried that I was vaping off the goods, so I hit the oven air, but did not really get off, so I think 320-325 is safe for short runs.

I have eaten the herb as is, in capsules, honey slides, butter and my favorite, green milk, both with deoxy and without, with the same herbs. Deoxy is the shit, period.

However, let us not discount the potential of ingested herb as a med, aside from getting high. One thing I noticed is, that when I actually eat the raw herb, my body is happy for a day or two, aside from the stone part. And it continues to get digested over night, and I keep getting off, this may be just because I am an old man, not sure. I do not get the lingering effect as much with butter, and not at all with green milk. I think there is potential for herb capsules, unprocessed, taken daily, to benefit health, and more importantly, prevent the onset of cancer and alzheimers in some folks, without getting them stoned.

Getting ready to work on tinctures, and all that herb will be heated first.
H

 

[MedTokeRx]

not the same as cooking the resin heads , but even body heat and a little pressure definately improves the raw potency .

Drooling!

 

[G.O. Joe]

and does anyone have links to hard solid numbers on the temperature of decarboxylation. with a link? cause I"ve read anything from 175 F to 350 F from sources like jorge cervantes and other web shit. ANyone.... bueller?

These are good, if not the best, real scientific literature in English on the subject that I can find anywhere:

Quantitative determination of Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol and Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinolic acid in marihuana by high-pressure liquid chromatography
Saul L. Kanter, Michael R. Musumeci and Leo E. Hollister
Journal of Chromatography 171, 504 (1979)

Abstract
Measurement of Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) content of marihuana by high-pressure liquid chromatography (HPLC) is confounded by the fact that variable amounts of the THC are in the form of Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinolic acid (THCA). Failure to convert the latter material to the former by decarboxylation could lead to erroneously low determinations of THC content in marihuana samples, unlike the situation with ordinary gas-liquid chromatography (GLC), in which the heat in the column is more than adequate to assure total decarboxylation. Decarboxylation procedures mentioned in the literature did not work in our hands. This report describes the decarboxylation procedure that we developed for measuring THC content of marihuana using normal-phase HPLC.


Determination of cannabinoid acids by high-performance liquid chromatography of their neutral derivatives formed by thermal decarboxylation : I. Study of the decarboxylation process in open reactors
T. Veress, J.I. Szanto, L. Leisztner
Journal of Chromatography A 520, 339 (1990)

Abstract
Decarboxylation of cannabidiolic and tetrahydrocannabinolic acids was studied in open reactors in order to investigate the accuracy and reliability of the decarboxylation sample preparation process applied prior to indirect methods, which has been widely used for the determination of cannabinoid acids. The rate of the decarboxylation reaction was followed by the high-performance liquid chromatographic determination of the neutral cannabinoids formed. The effects of different parameters (temperature, solvents, sorbent phases, salts) on decarboxylation were investigated. Reliable results could only be obtained by the mathematical correction of data obtained from experiments in an open reactor.

...See also this: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2411085
Some (not a lot) THCA was volatilized from a Volcano unchanged at 226°C there.

In attached patent US 7344736, GW Pharma says the best conditions for kilos of buds, has analytical data for different conditions, and might not be fudging anything.

 

[Machine Elf]

As a fellow scientist I can comment by saying that Sam's words would be "dead on balls accurate".

As previously stated most THC in the plant is actually THCA, I believe typically 80-90% THCA in fact pre-decarboxylation. THCA is not psychoactive. As also stated why thinking an acid would cause decarboxylation of another acid is beyond me. An alkaline substance (base) or non polar solvent would be the logical key, as with heat. An acid is looking to donate a proton to a base. THCA has an extra COOH group attached which makes it acidic. Adding an acid (which is looking to donate its proton) to THCA will cause no reaction. Adding a base to an acid, which can accept a proton, will cause a reaction. But I am unsure if adding a base to THCA will cause a "true" reaction as there is no proton to donate when the CO2 decarboxylates (it goes back to the carbon) Hmmmm. Perhaps the base will merely act as a carrier for the donation of the proton, the CO2 decarboxylates and the proton goes back to the THC and the base is returned to its donor state. I am unsure as to the exact mechanism light, O2 and heat cause decarboxylation as well the mechanism involved with solvents as to what attaches where. I have been trying to discern such but I have never been able to find primary literature that will truly elucidate the problem.

I have eaten raw cannabis it does nothing. Delicious and spicy though! Good as a chew like tobacco snuff only spicy and cancer free.

THCV is tetrahydrocannabivarin. THC's boiling point is 157 degrees Celius according to Mcpartland, Russo. 2001. Cannabis and Cannabis Extracts: Greater Than the Sum of Their Parts? Journal of Cannabis Therapeutics. 1(3/4):103-132

Another good link I found when checking out some THCA structures that shows the process of decarboxylation: http://cannabis-science.com/cannabis_chemistry.html

 

[andi]

Can you cook it in cream instead of oil for 15 minutes & get the same effect? I'm trying to come up with a recipe for hot cocoa and I'm using cream instead of whole milk because it has more fat. This is what I've got:

Hot Chocolate

2 cups Half & Half
4 grams finely chopped cannabis
1/2 cup unsweetened cocoa powder (good quality)
1/2 cup natural sugar

Combine cream and sugar in a saucepan over medium heat. Once the sugar is dissolved, add the finely chopped cannabis. Bring to just under a boil and add the cocoa powder. Stir over low heat for 10 minutes.

What do you think?

 

[andi]

Check this out:

http://www.cannabis.uk.net/raw cannabis/RAW CANNABIS.htm

 

[Truthman]

I'm back on this subject due to reading a lot of people repeating statements without thinking about what they're repeating and it is annoying.

Let me ask if thca is an acid with a carboxylic group attached to it and we know vitamin b6(pyridoxine) is what decarboxylation happens with, why would you need to heat up cannabis for it to be activated into thc?. All you have to do is eat a whole meal with green leafy vegetables, spices, beans, avocado and grains and you will get a healthy does of b6. Eat the cannabis with the meal or right after and you will get high.

Of course if you eat the cannabis alone or with sugary or fatty foods than you won't have enough b6, if any at all, to activate the thc but that is the person who is ingesting the cannabis' fault not the cannabis and it needing to be heated to be effective. In fact you will have a better high if you eat a meal like I described with the cannabis than eating a firecracker of brownie.

I just don't get why people can't see this one small but very important fact.

If someone is using cannabis as medicine then this information needs to be told instead of feeding people brownies and foods high in sugar that are causing inflammation and a lot of medical problems in the first place.

If dispensaries can teach their patients how to prepare healthy foods, all the patient has to do is ingest the cannabis after their meal and they will get the major benefits of the cannabis as well as the other foods they are eating and get a synergistic effect.

What I see are people being given food that is not good for them in the first place but it has cannabis added but they say they want to get healthy.

I just think if we truly want a better society as far as health, cannabis has to be apart of the whole plan and not just the plan.

 

[Haps]

We are talking about actual experiments, not theory, and you are simply wrong. I eat fresh leaf several times a week with my spinach salads, but do not get stoned off it, eating weed is healthy, but not efficient to get you stoned.

 

[Ipsissimus]

Many thanks for the explanation Sam. I remember vividly the chocolate you brought to the 420 cup last year, man that stuff was potent, now I know why!

I made a batch of QWISO using mostly Trainwreck and Mexican trim back in February, both heady sativas. I purged the alcohol by sitting the pyrex bowl containing the alcohol solution on top of a pan of boiling water. Little bubbles and swirling votices formed in the oil so I would guess it was heated to at least 80 or 90 celsius. The resulting oil was incredibly potent, I would estimate 3x the potency of the dry sift hash I had made from the same material, this stuff was so heady and energising, I couldn't sleep after a day of smoking it and it sent one or two of my friends for a loop. I never understood why it was sooo potent, now I do - the heating.

I shall now vote as I feel I know have enough knowledge to form an opinion!

PS. Sam, if you could post any of your recipes and further details of your cooking methods, I would be very grateful!

You actually have created a new theory - that heating something before SMOKING it increases it's potency. Most seem to think smoking takes care of the decarboxylation.

edit - it could be that your iso was more concentrated, or it extracted a different ratio of cannabinoids.

 

[Truthman]

We are talking about actual experiments, not theory, and you are simply wrong. I eat fresh leaf several times a week with my spinach salads, but do not get stoned off it, eating weed is healthy, but not efficient to get you stoned.

I'm not talking about theories. What I'm talking about has actually been done if you read the past post three people have done it with avocado.

It all comes down to eating high fatty(whole vegetable fats) and fibrous foods which have a good amount of b6 in them, which coincidentally avocado does. Spinach salad doesn't fall into this bracket unless eaten with good oils such as avocados, coconut oil, clarified butter, or nuts & seeds.

When you eat these foods a few things happen. One the b6 decarboxylates the thca, the fibrous food forces the stomach to churn which helps break the food down, and the fatty foods slow down the digestion so the thc avoids the first pass digestion and goes to the lymphatic system to go to the bloodstream.

Like I said others did it with avocado, and if you don't believe me it has been shown scientifically. Check it out:

http://www.cannabis-med.org/english/bulletin/ww_en_db_cannabis_artikel.php?id=291

"Oral intake of a cannabinoid together with a meal improved bioavailability by avoiding first-pass metabolism

Researchers of Monash University in Victoria, Australia, investigated the reason why the oral bioavailability of a synthetic cannabinoid receptor agonist (CRA13) was significantly improved if taken together with a meal rich in fat. Oral bioavailability was assessed in human volunteers and in dogs with and without a meal. Food had a substantial positive effect on the oral
bioavailability of CRA13 in human volunteers and in dogs. This cannabinoid is highly lipophilic (soluble in fat) as other cannabinoids including THC.

The absolute bioavailability of the cannabinoid was low in fasted dogs (8-20 per cent), in spite of good absorption (72-75 per cent of radio-labelled CRA13 recovered in the systemic circulation). In fed dogs, bioavailability increased to 47.5 per cent and the majority (43.7 per cent) of the dose was absorbed via the lymphatic system of the intestine. Researchers concluded that the positive food effect for CRA13 does not appear to result from
increased absorption. Rather the increase in bioavailability was stimulated via almost complete transport into the lymph, in turn resulting in a reduction in first-pass metabolism. In fasted dogs most of the cannabinoid was metabolised, i.e. changed to inactive compounds, at once in the liver before reaching the whole body, while the liver was bypassed in fed animals."

 

[Truthman]

BTW, unless you eat your spinach with avocado or a lot of nuts and seeds, or saute it in some good oils you're not getting the health benefits of the salad because a lot of the healthy chemicals are fat soluble and are also locked up in the leaf.

The only way to get those benefits is either to cook them, not boiled, with some good oils or juice them to unlock a good amount of the nutrients.

If you do make a salad you need to cut them up very good and eat them with a healthy does of good oil, not just a dab like most do. They absorb A lot of oil as most leafy vegetables do.

 

[Haps]

I use a nice virgin olive oil, some vinegar, hot sauce, romano cheese and a little cheese or meat, I am on a heart survivor diet. I do agree that eating with the herb is much better, that part of the concept is true.

 

[Truthman]

I use a nice virgin olive oil, some vinegar, hot sauce, romano cheese and a little cheese or meat, I am on a heart survivor diet. I do agree that eating with the herb is much better, that part of the concept is true.

That's a good start but to really see the benefits of herb and food in general, eat food that still have a good amount of moisture in them. This is one reason why whole foods or foods that have been rehydrated are so good for you. The water in them help with digestion and therefore more nutrients available to you.

Most people diets lack in water content and is one of reasons why their digestion isn't up to par.

From what you tell me the salad doesn't have enough moisture because the cheese will absorb the little moisture that is available unless the meat has not been overcooked.

Unless you are eating a lot of this meal until you are stuffed, I can see why you won't feel the effects of the herb but I have to see how much you eat and what is the ratio of the carbs, protein, and fats to get a good understanding of what you are eating.

Anyway, just giving another side of the cannabis health game.

 

[Truthman]

I forgot to mention if you want a nice dish to see if what I'm saying is true, make a beans soup dish.

Saute some garlic, onions, tomato, celery, bell pepper and some spinach with some clarified butter, coconut oil or if you have to olive or vegetable oil. Add some spices like paprika(use a good amount if using paprika 1-2tbls) then put your cooked beans(with the water) into the mix. Let it cook until it has a thick consistency but not dry. You still want to see some water bubbling.

If you want to add some avocado slice put it in last when the heat is off or better yet when you start to eat your meal. Put the soup on top of some brown rice and eat until your stuff.

You can now add the finely ground cannabis last or eat the meal first then ingest the cannabis. Finely ground cannabis will get digested faster than whole cannabis due to more surface area.

Doing this will show you how eating certain foods and a lot of it will let you feel the effects of cannabis without heating it.

 

[Ipsissimus]

could it be possible that both parties are correct in that eating cannabinoids with fats aids in the absorbtion of the goods, and that heating the goodies causes decarboxylation, enhancing potency as well?

the best test would be raw buds, raw buds with oils, raw buds heated with oils. That was sam's point - you have to test them side by side, before drawing any conclusions.

 

[Ipsissimus]

If I'm really full before I eat some treats, I have a delayed reaction, sometimes diminished. I like to eat them when I'm really hungry, but I usually just have the munchies