Thai

[dubi]

Those harvested buds and colas look yummy and well developed @BC LONE WOLF well done!
Unless you are providing supplementary light or heat for the re-vegging process, they indeed have 80-90 challenging days ahead until the spring equinox, good luck!

 

[H e d g e]

@dubi i just read this post from gmt and my jaw is still on the floor 5 mins later..

Where are we? Ah yeah ok, this is general forum, I can take this on a tangent here. So, how layman? I'll go really simplistic, not to patronise but so anyone reading in the future can also follow.

So in cannabis, sex is determined in two ways, depending on the evolutionary path that the individual lines followed. As in all species' deviations, historically these tended to be geographically separated, such as African and Indian elephants having different ears etc.

In the south eastern area of Asia, you have what is referred to as an X to autosome, sex determining system. In Pakistan India Afghanistan regions, you have the Active Y, system.

Active Y is what we all know and think of in terms of boys and girls. Girls having XX chromosomes as boys having XY chromosomes. So the presence of a Y, determines a male

In X to autosome lines, there is no Y. There are only XX plants. The difference between the generation of female flowers and male flowers, lies in the other chromosomes. This is done by the number of copies of a sex determining gene. I'll give a very basic and simplistic analogy.

If you have two pillow cases with 100 tennis balls in each, and you want to make a third pillow case with 100 tennis balls in by taking half of the balls from each pillow case, you can see this is the same process as breeding two anythings together. Now if each pillow case has mainly yellow tennis balls in it, but one has 8 red ones and the other has 16 red ones inside, we have a difference. If we take tennis balls at random from each pillowcase, then this new pillowcase will be filled with mainly yellow tennis balls, but have a random chance of gaining somewhere between 0 and 24 red tennis balls. The average red count being 12 red balls.

Now in X to autosome systems, there will be a critical number of these genes that will determine if the plant will grow male flowers or not. This gene is referred to as sex-det 1. If the number of copies of this gene is above the critical limit, then these XX girls will grow only male flowers. These will be perceived as boys, however they aren't boys, they are girls with a sufficient sex-det 1count, to express as males. If the sex-det 1 count is below a certain limit, then these XX girls will only express female flowers. However when the sex-det 1 count hovers around this critical limit, you get intersexed flowers being produced.

This is not due to faulty genes as it would be in active Y lines, that can simply be removed from the gene pool, but are a direct result of the system of determination used.

The only way to remove intersexed individuals from such a line, would be to reduce the count of Sex-det 1 genes to 0. This would of course leave the line feminised forever.

Now go back to the pillow cases, by selecting pillow cases with the least red balls in them, and breeding them together, using artificial means, we reduce both the average and the potential range of the number of red tennis balls in the new pillow cases. However if we start breeding a pillow case with red balls below the critical number, (plants that show only female flowers), and pillow cases with lots of red balls (plants that show exclusively male flowers), then we may be increasing the average red ball (sex-det 1) count above the upper limit to show exclusively female flowers, and in turn increase the number of intersexed plants in the offspring.
You will always get the standard deviation curve from the offspring, with plants with low counts of the male flower genes, and plants with the highest count being in limited numbers, at each end of the graph, and with the majority of examples being in-between the two extreme groups averaging out towards the middle, in what is referred to as a standard deviation curve.

This means that by using "males" in x to autosome lines, you are increasing the average count of sex-det 1 genes present in all the offspring. By reversing a female and pollinating either itself or another low count female, you are reducing the average count of sex-det 1 genes.
One way increases the intersexed individuals in the next generation, and the other way reduces it.

Hopefully I pretty much covered that there.

Would it be possible for you to offer a fem version of this Thai? After reading this I would buy multiple packs of it and the butterfly Thai if they were available as fems.
The effects from this one are exactly what I’ve been looking for so I’d like to select from many plants and create a fem only line with them.

I know you are probably busy with other things but to plant a seed in your brain.
I thought others reading this thread would probably also be interested in the quote.

 

[PapaThai]

@dubi i just read this post from gmt and my jaw is still on the floor 5 mins later..


Would it be possible for you to offer a fem version of this Thai? After reading this I would buy multiple packs of it and the butterfly Thai if they were available as fems, the effects from this one are exactly what I’ve been looking for so I’d like to select from many plants and create a fem only line with them.

I know you are probably busy with other things but to plant a seed in your brain. I thought others reading this thread would probably also be interested in the quote.

too bad you corrected "gem only line". Isn't that what we're all looking for?


But back on that highly interesting post. Wouldn't that all mean, dubi's efforts in selecting out any hermies and dismiss them in favor of true males as pollen donors was in fact counterproductive? Or do I miss something? Just back from work and my brain is fried...

 

[H e d g e]

too bad you corrected "gem only line". Isn't that what we're all looking for?


But back on that highly interesting post. Wouldn't that all mean, dubi's efforts in selecting out any hermies and dismiss them in favor of true males as pollen donors was in fact counter productive? Or do I miss something? Just back from work and my brain is fried...

Ha ha, should’ve left it, if gmt is right then it would make selections easier with less space required than keeping ‘males’.

Also I’ve heard of Thai not being released pure because no males were found, it’d be sad if the butterfly Thai had been shelved for this reason.

And yes, perhaps counterproductive.

 

[ThaiBliss]

Wow peeps. This is a very interesting conversation. GMT's post actually seems to explain some things, for instance, how some lines seem to produce predominantly female offspring. I'm guessing the active Y sex determination system is dominant when crossed to an X to autosome system plant. Yet another reason why so many breeders can't seem to help outcrossing fine S.E. Asian genetics to make them easier to grow. Unfortunately, extremely unique types of highs are at risk of getting hybridized into oblivion without extremely careful breeding. Maybe it's impossible.

 

[dubi]

A good consistent hermie free feminized pure Thai can be done, although not a priority for us at the moment. It's a matter of selection and testing of best combinations of females.

 

[H e d g e]

Thanks dubi, I’ll give it a try with these polycots I’ve been collecting..

 

[acespicoli]

A good consistent hermie free feminized pure Thai can be done, although not a priority for us at the moment. It's a matter of selection and testing of best combinations of females.

With the legalization and current freedom of trade this is the easiest it has been in recent memory for collection, this also makes the climate of import seed and contamination the biggest risk. Time is of the essence to collect and preserve these ancient jewels of S. E. Asia,

Just want to take a minute to Thank you!
For all the current work you have put in.
Will be looking forward to the results when time allows you to properly work those collections you have been so blessed to collect

 

[Colorize]

Having read some of the discussions about hermies I'd like to provide some insights into why there is such a prevalence of hermaphrodite plants in tropical ganja to begin with, how we've gotten to this place.

GMT is overwhelmingly correct with the exception of the assumption that the lack of true males is an intrinsic (universal) quality of Thai cannabis, and of his portrayal of the primary cause for this paradigm being a quirk of geography. Which is indeed a relevant factor, but only a secondary one.

A higher than usual ratio of females as well as hermaphrodites (these traits are linked) are a pan-tropical phenomenon. But that's less of a geographical consequence than it is a consequence of ganja domesticates being grown in those regions, because of how they came to be and are handled.

The rate of the prevalence of hermaphrodites varies both by country and cultivar. You can find what's in essence a herm-only variety and travel 50km down the road to find a population that isn't as feminized and vice versa. Though in practice it's merely about relatively small differences in percentages.

You could, on paper, maintain a mostly hermie-free variety for generations near the equator. It would be an uphill battle requiring lots of consideration, diligence and care, but it can be done.

Late flower hermaphrodites, especially under the absence of pollination (pollinating can mask this trait indoors) but in general, as well as stress-induced hermaphrodites are a normal survival strategy of cannabis. Because it's advantageous and serves as a last resort backup plan to avoid extinction.

Coming at the cost of a loss of genetic information (which is a mixed bag, but generally not favorable) in exchange for that increased perseverance. You find them as well as true hermies in any given landrace population outside of the tropics, the difference being that they're diluted in a sea of true males and females.

It's also true that hermaphrodites are very prone to multiply in occurrence due to the conditions under which they appear. Unusually high prevalence of hermies being a consequence of genetic drift.

One reason why the tropics are a favorable environment for hermies, specifically late-flower panic hermies (which are most likely to occur with seedless or lightly seeded flowers, that being a common way to grow in the tropics) is due to the lack of a killing frost. In most parts of the world there comes a time when it just gets too cold for the plants to keep on growing and to survive. Even if there was some pollination by late-flower hermies, there's a decent chance that those seeds won't be able to ripen.

Thereby decreasing the likelihood of that trait being passed on, which isn't the case in the tropics.

Tropical plants enjoy an environment that's conducive to a long life cycle which also means a greater occurrence of late flower hermaphrodites in the field as well as successful ripening of those seeds. For a seedless (male-less) crop this means that all resulting seeds have been produced by hermaphrodites*.

*Late-flower, stress and true hermaphrodites in practice, more of the former if all males have been chopped, more of the latter if just a small amount have been left standing.

That's really the core of the issue. If hermie pollen is all or most of the pollen that fertilizes the plants, then those traits are going to dominate the next generation within a single generation. There are lots of reasons why this can easily happen and once it did, there's no turning back the clock.

Hermie varieties are hermies due to selective pressures.

Another reason why the tropics as an geographical location make for hermie-prone plants, is that those plants have come from outside of the tropics initially. Cannabis evolved in places with real seasons and uses the photoperiod to orient and place itself within them, being sensitive to even small changes.

The shift in light cycle as you move the plants towards the tropics causes stress-induced hermaphrodites which propagate in accordance with the ratio of them successfully pollinating a crop versus stable plants.

Reacting like an outdoor-only variety being grown indoors for the first time would. Although historically at the time of ganja domestication, the shift was slower and more incremental, say plants from the north stopping by places before they end up in Kerala. People do rapidly travel large distances too however.

For the most part though, it's less about the geographical location than about how the plants came to be and how they're grown. Tropical ganja domesticates are full of hermies for similar reasons as modern indoor varieties are, with the added disadvantage of less conscious avoidance of hermaphrodite plants.

Some modern growers care less than others and are less conscious than others, but market as well as personal preference driven factors make cannabis containing any seed undesirable, while traditional growers want to obtain at least a few seeds for their next crop as well as not distinguishing between stable and hermaphrodite plants at all. Thai cannabis is full of hermies for the same reason as someone breeding with their hermie bagseed of a hermie bagseed of a hermie bagseed Chemdawg gets them.

The conditions changed once people started domesticating cannabis for the product of ganja, which is both the cause of many desirable changes, as well as the high prevalence of hermaphrodites. Unlike before, people started growing much fewer plants in number and started to selectively keep seeds.

Choosing only the individual plants they considered to be the best and most potent to plant in the next season instead of indiscriminately and randomly sowing their seeds and any selection, conscious or unconscious happening on the population level in conjunction with intact natural selection*.

*the worst runts produce the least seeds and are least likely to make it into the next grow in large numbers under normal circumstances.

In a single mating of one female to one male, the chance that the female used is a stable female or a genetic/stress hermie is 50:50. However, if one out of three females is a hermie, then 33,3% of all plants used were hermies. If one out of ten is a hermie, then only 10% of all females are hermaphrodites.

Meaning the less plants you grow, the higher the impact of any hermie pollen producing viable seeds for the offspring. A good way to put this may be that with a large number of plants, it's much more likely for you to have a few hermies within your stable plants, than having a few stable plants within your hermies.

The same is true for selectively keeping seeds of the best and most potent plants of course. The less individual plants you keep seeds of, the higher the chance that you've kept seeds from an hermie individual. And you're much more likely to do it again in the next grow because there'll be more of them.

As the gene pool shrinks, any and all traits increase in prevalence, be it high potency or hermies.

With good breeding ethics, single matings of one female to one male should never be done unless you're willing to grow and test the progeny for hermaphrodites if they're to be avoided. The numbers are much more in your favor if you at least use two or three males and females per cross, at the cost of uniformity.

Seedless or lightly seeded flowers are free real estate, first pollen grain come, first served, be it pollen of stable plants or hermies. And if all or most of what you get is hermie pollen because there are no or few normal males, you've got stress hermies for any possible reason, randomly grew a genetic full hermaphrodite or received a lot of them because they reproduced in high numbers in previous generations, then of course the proportion of feminized, hermie seeds reflects that in the future.

Because that's most or all of them. And for the most part, to people in traditional ganja cultivation countries a seed is simply a seed, it's what you keep for the next crop. And for all the aforementioned reasons, this is why tropical ganja varieties have such a high female ratio and many hermaphrodites.

This being such a universal phenomenon is because it's just such a slippery slope. Reproductive success for any type of hermie for any reason leads to a creeping increase of their numbers in further generations because of when, how and why they occur, unless you actively try to prevent them.

It spreads like a viral disease too because hermie pollen from neighboring ganja farms travels.

Not any and all varieties in Thailand are fem/herm-only though, that's just the end of the road for this process and why it's easy to assume that they're all made equal. Because that's just the way things usually go and it's the norm that whatever you've got is somewhere along this process.

Real males exist and the likelihood and degree of them being present in any tropical line is pretty much down to how much the males thrived in the genetic history of that variety. One farming family culling less males* than another for generations makes a major difference, even though that's just a few percent.

Or growing more plants, making less intense selections of seeds from individual plants to keep, harvesting earlier helps a little too. Ironically enough, the likelihood of finding true males is easier with lines that aren't considered to be the best, most potent and most well grown. With the exception of those by people that both strive for the highest quality as well as staying on top of the hermie situation (or getting plain lucky). Some negligence can help to a certain extent if the ship hasn't long sailed.

Having said that, negligence also caused it, people in traditional ganja growing regions don't care about hermies and there's an argument to be made that we shouldn't care as much too. Some of the most interesting plants are hermies due to being a product of the most intense selection. And preservation efforts are challenging too if the plants you need to get rid of constitute most of the plants. Reducing an usually already small gene pool, genetic sustainability, and massively changing a variety's character.

It is what it is though, that's just the reality of tropical sativas. But they still make it easy to love them.

I hope someone finds this interesting, helpful and that it clears up some questions.

 

[H e d g e]

Has anyone ever lab tested a pure Thai for gender that tested male?

 

[PapaThai]

Has anyone ever lab tested a pure Thai for gender that tested male?

I don't think it's possible at all to lab test for gender as long as it's not understood which chromosomes and/or genes (or even environmental factors) actually make the difference.

 

[gedLang]

I don't think it's possible at all to lab test for gender as long as it's not understood which chromosomes and/or genes (or even environmental factors) actually make the difference.

I think @H e d g e is asking if anyone has tested a male-appearing Thai to see if it has a Y chromosome. That would mean that the strain is using the XY system of sex determinism. Testing for a Y chromosome is easy and can be done with an at-home kit. Testing for specific genes that control hermaphrodism or the expression of male-appearing plants in an XX chromosome only strain is more complicated. There is some research done on XX only SE Asian strains that identified a specific sex expression gene. But it seems likely that there are many different genes that contribute to hermaphrodism in general and I'm not familiar with the research in this area.

 

[H e d g e]

The easiest way then, to find a pure male expression xx thai if that’s what you’re looking for would be crossing the most extreme herms with each other.
Maybe if you wanted to preserve the male expression then two lines would be best? One fem only and one male only.

It’d be interesting to see the offspring gender ratio if these two lines were separately stabilised, then chemically reversed and crossed with each other using the female as pollen donor vs the other way around using pollen from the xx male.

Might be an idea to do this occasionally for vigour but I’d rather have plants with just enough male genes to reliably make a few flowers at the base of the plant after the tops have been harvested.

It’s weird male expression xx plants aren’t used for fibre production, I’d guess it’d be an advantage.

 

[outsidegrower]

I don't think it's possible at all to lab test for gender as long as it's not understood which chromosomes and/or genes (or even environmental factors) actually make the difference.

i've used Farmer freeman's EZ XY test kit. Gone through one ten pack and half of another. It's been accurate so far.

 

[dubi]

Thanks dubi, I’ll give it a try with these polycots I’ve been collecting..

View attachment 19142882

In my experience trycot seedlings later have more chances in average of showing hermie tendencies compared with normal plants from same population.

Has anyone ever lab tested a pure Thai for gender that tested male?

Yes, i think there are sex tester in the market, although i never give them a try and i don't know if they can differenciate hermies.

The easiest way then, to find a pure male expression xx thai if that’s what you’re looking for would be crossing the most extreme herms with each other.

Crossing extreme hermies with each other will only result in more extreme hermies.
The best approach is to grow both females and males, applying stress to identify those that don’t show hermie tendencies. Then, make 1 to1 pairings between them and study which combinations produce the best offspring with the least hermaphroditism.

Let's focus the thread again on the specifics of this Thai Chiang Mai line.