Thai Stick Test Grow

[smokeymacpot]

I PM'd Gypsy about sending in seeds to give away as freebie testers, though not heard back yet - might be the best way to go about it, especially with the new emphasis on 'landrace preservation'. I can't possibly grow out all the crosses I'm planning this year, but I'd be happy for others to try. Maybe a 'how to grow Thai indoors' thread would be great, especially if a few people were trying it.

BTW, the little 'helmet' is off the first Thai seedling, and the first proper leaves are open...two more seeds splitting/sprouting...

well i made an account on that seedbay and mailed them to allow me to sell some, so hopefully alot more people can give this thai a try. i would like to see some big thai grows under some phat lights.

im more than willing to work with you to create a how to grow thai thread, because it is a special type of weed.. gives a lovely high and no couchlock!

how many seeds have you got? and how many are you growing ?

 

[Elevator Man]

Ta-da!

Ta-da!

I've only got about 30 useful seeds - I've got a few more reserved for someone, and the rest I'll keep back after this germination session - I'm only getting hits of 20% or so at the moment, as I think many are dead or too dormant to be revived. I can't really start too many off on this run, as I've so little space - it's more to see if I can get some to grow, rather than a perfect-pheno hunt.

There's a couple more splitting/sprouting, and I'm just going to put one more in soil now, as I don't want to risk it dying overnight - one I planted lost its taproot and shrivelled. This is the seeds at fault, BTW, I'm germing and growing out many others at the same time with no problems...

But...at last...

 

[Elevator Man]

Holy Shit...aliens...?

Holy Shit...aliens...?

Well I may have identified at least part of the problem with these seeds - I was just going to plant this one, as I was wondering why the sprout wasn't extending - when I got closer, I noticed it appeard to be covered in a drop of fluid. When I gently poked it with a cocktail stick, it turned out to be solid, and slightly flexible - I wondered, is this some kind of 'amniotic fluid' gone hard? It was preventing the sprout from extending any further out.

Anyway, I poked it a little less gently, and it 'pinged' off, and the shell actually closed up again slightly, and the sprout actually retreated a little back inside the shell! I put it back in the blotters again to see what happens next, but this is freaky - anyone seen this before?

 

[PersonalSmoke]

That is actually the first thai stick I've ever seen. It would be cool if those came back into popularity, what's the smoke like? I can gather it's sativa, but I remember reading that opium was added to them in the 70's. Sounds tasty.

 

[Sinfuldreams]

OMFG!

OMFG!

Well I may have identified at least part of the problem with these seeds - I was just goign to plant this one, as I was wondering why the sprout wasn't extending - when I got closer, I noticed it appeard to be covered in a drop of fluid. When I gently poked it with a cocktail stick, it turned out to be solid, and slightly flexible - I wondered, is this some kind of 'amniotic fluid' gone hard? It was preventing the sprout from extending any further out.

Anyway, I poked it a little less gently, and it 'pinged' off, and the shell actually closed up again slightly, and the sprout actually retreated a little back inside the shell! I put it back in the blotters again to see what happens next, but this is freaky - anyone seen this before?

Dude it's like Jurassic Park !
Memories emmmmmmm

Good Job!
Damn you made my day!

Sin

 

[Elevator Man]

I'm still a little afraid. I'm worried some weird tiny Thai beastie might be waiting inside - like some jumping hermit-crab or something. The sprout actually pulled back in like I'd startled it - I'm not kidding.

I need another spliff...

 

[smokeymacpot]

elevator man, sometimes a few dont sprout.

personalsmoke, thai smokes lovely and even better when youve grown it yourself. it doesnt appear to do anything untill your halfway through your joint giving a mellow build up, then it hits you with an energetic high. its probably the most enjoyable smoke ive ever had.

 

[Elevator Man]

It would be more accurate in this case to say that a few do sprout...

 

[Sinfuldreams]

All you need is a Mom and a Dad

All you need is a Mom and a Dad

It would be more accurate in this case to say that a few do sprout...

Double crossed fingers for you.

Had this back in like 77 or 78 STILL Nothing to beat the high!

Best of luck I'll be watching.

Sin

 

[zamalito]

With my one thai bagseed grow I had all sorts of odd traits I'd never seen before also. My experience with thai buds is fairly limited and you obviously have more info on the source of this herb than I do but looking at the bud I would guess that its of indian origin as opposed to thai. The size of the stick is very indianand the string used to tie it looks just like what they use to tie beadies with. Also where I believe you're located makes me think south indian also. I don't want you to get the impression that I'm saying you're wrong about the origin. I'm just letting you know what I'd assume if I saw that bud with no information on the background. South indian sativa is by no means less desirable than modern thai. From the pictures of the seeds I've seen they do look more thai than south indian also. I have seen south indian seeds that do look more like thais (possibly from importation on thai genetics) but traditionally they're smaller and more colombian looking. Do you have any pictures of the stick after it's been unwrapped and the flowers have been separated? Indian sativas are almost without exception hard to control outdoors whereas some of the older unadulterated heirloom thais can actually be quite easy to control indoors though many aren't.

I can't make out what's going on with your little extraterrestrial seed hitchhiker from the picture but it doesn't sound like anything I've seen before. Do you think it is a trait that's ocurring with many of the seeds or just that one?

 

[ngakpa]

hey - sawadee jao

will be very, very interested to see how this goes

for what it's worth, as a general point, my instinct would be to veg a Thai sativa on 14/12, and flower on 12/12 ... also, I would look to start them in at least 7.5 litre pots

heya Glock23, I don't agree that vegging on 12/12 "shortens flowering time" ... the effect is merely to reduce the growth spurt when the flowering stage kicks in (I assume this is due to a resultant lowering of growth "hormones" in the plant) ... as a side note on that issue, I would expect flowering itself to finish somewhat slower if you veg on 12/12 (and vica-versa)

hiya Zamalito - IME Thais are always using string like that to tie stuff up, including grass, food, vehicle doors, people (kidding) - I was seeing that kind of presentation and herb in North Thailand very recently ... and EM's description of the smoke and effect etc. was also a second thing that convinces me etc.

also, on the subject of seed patterning - what EM's have i.e. basically unmarked, but with a very light, almost impercetible mottled patterning, is what I was seeing in the few seeds in grass in Chiang Mai (as I now recall clearly, finally)...the few dropped in the garden there popped fast as fuck

will be watching the leaf shape early on with interest, with regard to the suggestion that a lot of modern Thai grass has been hybridised ... my money is on them showing stable leaf shapes from start to full flower

Thai grass is The Bee's Knees

cheers, sabai sabai

Namkha

 

[smokeymacpot]

With my one thai bagseed grow I had all sorts of odd traits I'd never seen before

i find that all the thais that ive sprouted have all looked and grown the same way.

also, on the subject of seed patterning - what EM's have i.e. basically unmarked, but with a very light, almost impercetible mottled patterning, is what I was seeing in the few seeds in grass in Chiang Mai (as I now recall clearly, finally)...the few dropped in the garden there popped fast as fuck

will be watching the leaf shape early on with interest, with regard to the suggestion that a lot of modern Thai grass has been hybridised ... my money is on them showing stable leaf shapes from start to full flower

Thai grass is The Bee's Knees

heres some thai seeds, both the light and darker ones will sprout, there are some that didnt form fully and they will not grow.



leave shape starts out looking not much different to other plants, but as they get bigger, they thin out, get longer and generally take on a typical sativa shape.

 

[hempman]

good luck with the Thai your in for a long wait.

 

[Elevator Man]

Those seeds look pretty much like mine - the less mottled ones definitely. They have a very pronounced 'seam' as well, and they can be popped quite easily, due to their large size. I am giving them all a crack after 24 hours soaking now if I can't see inside the seed - it seems to be helping - I can see white on two more...

The weird transparent bubble-thing I'm putting down to an extra-tough embryotic coating that got air trapped inside and inflated. I don't want to think about any other possibilites!

As to the origins, well, these things aren't an exact science, especially as I never met the folks who actually brought it in, but the contact is the only person who's ever got Thai stick before here, so I'm inclined to trust his judgement, but who knows really? He did go to Mexico recently, and India, and didn't bring seeds back from either location - he hadn't quite twigged what I was planning at that point. Next time...

Here's the seeds with a few other strains for comparison,and a close-up of the Thais alone:

 

[ngakpa]

yeh - while I'm still piffling on - as I recall it now, the seeds I saw in grass in Koh Tao (Gulf of Thailand) were very obviously mottled ...

the grass itself did not show any obvious hybrid traits - the high was strongly psychedelic first, but with tolerance devloping faster than normal, and some burn out

it was inferior to the grass in the North, with little smell, and had been grown on Koh Tao from Southern strains (the guys in question were itching to get their hands on some farang genetics)

....

any updates on the babbers?


cheers,

Namkha

 

[smokeymacpot]

mine arent mottled, they're a solid brownish grey colour with some having a few tiger stripes. elevator mans are very very mottled.

 

[ngakpa]

ah ok - I blame the drugs

yeh - I always kick myself for not keeping the seeds from grass I smoked while travelling - and the other problem is, I wasn't paying much attention to looking at them at the time, so my memory of them is very hazy, especially after a few joints of Malawi (so bloody nice)

part of the reason I am going on about it though is that I would like to establish a consensus on connections between seed appearance and hybridity / landrace purity ... Chamba, for instance, is confident he never saw conspicuous seed markings on herb in Thailand pre-1980s and says they are a likely indicator of hybridity

my feeling is that, given the proximity of Thailand to Yunnan, links with India, and the relatively recent (post 60s) mobility and infrastructure, genetic diversity on the ground in Thailand has been pretty high for millenia ... and presumably still is ... if they are indicators of hybridity, it may still be within the native gene pool ... still, I think given how close Thailand is to the likely homeland of ganja, you would expect a proportionally high level of genetic diversity

also, I don't think it is necessarily the case that people have been using hermie seeds due to growing sensi throughout Thailand ... many rural Thais and most Thai ethnic groups inc. hilltribes have a well developed botanical knowledge, as travel in rural Thailand reveals

rambling a bit - EM, perhaps you should grow some Kratom too

 

[Elevator Man]

Kratom? What's that?

 

[ngakpa]

It's an indigenous Thai plant used in Central and Southern Thailand by rural working class Thais.

The main active components give a stimulating - but opiate-like - high.

Many rural Thai women would rather have a husband who used kratom than ganja, as there is a perception in Thailand that ganja smokers are apathetic, whereas kratom is seen as being more conducive to a life of hard work.

The Latin name is Mitragyna speciosa - it grows as a tall shrub, or tree - 3 - 15 metres tall. One could grow a couple in one's orangery, for instance.

Erowid is the place to look. Deva Ethnobotanicals have the dried resin for sale. It is not nearly as strong as fresh, but it does work.

Here we go:



A Study of Kratom Eaters in Thailand
Sangun Suwanlert
Bulletin on Narcotics, 1975; Vol 27(3): 21-27
Sections

Introduction
Results
Discussion
Acknowledgement

Introduction
Kratom is indigenous to Thailand. Market gardeners, peasants and laborers often become addicted to kratom leaf use. In certain respects kratom addiction resembles addiction to a drug with narcotic properties, except that long-term kratom addicts develop a dark skin, particularly on the cheeks. The age of onset is apparently later than in heroin addiction, and females are rare amongst those who use the substance. Because of the harmful effects which may result from the use of kratom leaf, the Government of Thailand passed a law (Kratom Act 2486) which came into force on 3 August 1943 and by virtue of which it is forbidden to plant the tree; and existing ones are to be cut down. Kratom, known botanically as Mytragyna speciosa Korth., is a large tropical tree cultivated in Thailand, especially in the central and southern regions; it is rarely found in the northern and north-eastern parts of the country. The kratom leaf has long been known to possess narcotic properties and the beginning of its use in Thailand cannot be dated. Kratom is also called Kakuam, Ithang and, in the south of the country, Thom. In Thai folk medicine the leaf is used for the treatment of diarrhoea and as a substitute in cases of opium addiction. Some villagers use it as an ingredient for cooking. Market gardeners, peasants and labourers become easily addicted to the use of the leaf; they reason that it helps them to overcome the burden of their hard work and meager existence. Several alkaloids have been derived from the plant such as mytragynine, speciofoline, rhynchophylline, and stipulatine. In the present study thirty male and female cases of kratom addiction were selected from the Nondhaburi province and from the suburbs of Bangkok for the purpose of an intensive study. The interview method was used with a questionnaire consisting of 30 items. In addition five cases of psychotic patients with a history of kratom addiction were studied at Srithunya Psychiatric Hospital in Nondhaburi. Findings from psychiatric and physical examinations as well as treatment results were evaluated.

Results
DEMOGRAPHIC CHARACTERISTICS

Table 1 shows the demographic data collected from the subject sample. Twenty-nine of the kratom users were male and one was female. The addicts ranged in age between 31 and 77 years. Market gardeners, peasants and labourers were the predominant occupations in the sample. The social composition was: middle-class cultivators, low-class peasants and labourers.

* Based on a paper read at the 31st International Congress on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence held at Bangkok in February 1975, organized by the International Council on Alcohol and Addictions.

** For further details please see "The alkaloids of Mitragyna", by E. J. Shellard in: Bulletin on Narcotics, vol. XXVI, No. 2 (1974).

TABLE 1

Demographic characteristics of 30 Thai kratom eaters
Characteristic Number of subjects
Age

Under 20
0
20-29
0
30-49
15
50-59
6
60-69
6
70 or over
3
Sex

Male
29
Female
1
Marital status

Single
1
Married
26
Divorced
2
Widowed
1
Social class

Upper
1
Middle
19
Lower
10
Ethnic background

Thai
30
Chinese
0

TABLE 2

Onset and duration of kratom addiction
Chctracteristic Number of subjects
Age at onset

Under 20
2
20-29
7
30-39
13
40-49
8
Date of onset

1945-1949
6
1950-1954
4
1955-1959
9
1960-1964
4
1965-1970
6
1971-1975
1
Number of years addicted

1-5
1
6-10
6
11-15
4
16-20
9
21-25
4
26-30
6
METHOD OF CONSUMPTION AND ONSET AND DURATION OF ADDICTION

There are two kinds of popular kratom uses among Thai addicts in this area; the kratom leaf contains either a red or a white vein and the latter has a stronger effect. The persons in the sample preferred either a mixture of the red and white vein (73.3%), red vein (16.6%) or a white vein (10%). 90% of kratom use is by chewing the fresh leaf or by grinding the dried leaf. This can then be eaten without further preparation or after having been placed into warm water. Some people also grind the fresh kratom leaf. For each preparation the vein in the leaf is extracted and in some cases salt is added to prevent constipation. Consumption is usually followed by a drink of warm liquid: warm water (40%); warm water and hot coffee (30%) or hot coffe alone (30%). In the early stages of addiction the user may take only a few leaves to obtain satisfactory results. The dosage is then increased in varying degrees among individual subjects: 10-20 leaves daily (40%); 21-30 leaves daily (36.6%); while the remainder of the sample increased its daily use to an indefinite number of leaves. The addicts chew about 3-10 times a day, depending on their sensation of weariness to be overcome. Amattayakul (1960) reported that an average green leaf weighs about 1.7 g and a dry leaf about 0.43 g. Twenty kratom leaves contain about 17 mg of mitragynine.
Kratom tree (tall one)
Kratom tree (tall one)

Table 2 shows the onset and duration of kratom addiction and the duration of addiction at five year intervals. Almost all subjects in the sample became addicted to kratom because they wanted to work more efficiently. The subjects in this sample had been addicted for a period of from 3 years to 30 years, with a mean of 18.6 years.
PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECTS

Five to ten minutes after kratom consumption the user described himself as feeling happy, strong and active. The most important aspect for this kind of addict is a strong desire to work on his plot, in the rice field, or do other manual work.
Kratom leaf: white and red
Kratom leaf: white and red
Kratom leaves and flowers
[Image Missing]

He can work from morning until evening, even though it may be very hot and the sun bright at midday. Addicts are, however, afraid of the rain which causes.them to catch cold easily. They mention that their mind is calm and that they prefer to stay alone. Sexual desire is limited in about 30% of the subjects under study who need a combination of kratom and alcohol for sexual stimulation (26.3%). In 63.3% there was a normal sex life and only 6.6% used the leaf to prolong sexual intercourse. Anorexia, weight loss and insomnia are common among long-term kratom addicts. As these symptoms are similar to those of depression, it might be difficult to differentiate between depression and kratom addiction if one were to ignore an addict's case history.
Kratom flower
Kratom flower
Kratom, dried and fresh flower
Kratom, dried and fresh flower
PHYSIOLOGICAL EFFECTS

Long term addicts become thin, their skin darkens, particularly in the face on both cheeks which gives an appearance similar to a hepatic face. Dryness in the mouth is common as well as frequent micturition and often constipation. Some mention that the faeces are black and tend to be small in shape similar to goat faeces (Norakarnphadung, 1968). Withdrawal symptoms include, for example, hostility, aggression, flow of tears, wet nose, inability to work, aching in the muscles and bones, jerky movement of the limbs. These are all typical symptoms of kratom addicts.
KRATOM PSYCHOSIS

There were five cases of kratom addiction revealing psychotic symptoms; these had been seen by the author in the last year (1974) in the outpatient department. Initially three cases were suspected of having kratom psychosis on the basis of their history of addiction and their general appearance and on psychiatric examination.

Case 1: A 55-year old Thai subject had begun eating kratom at the age of 20. His complaints were convulsions and mental confusion over the past few weeks. He was thin, his skin had become dark, particularly in the face on both cheeks, and it had an appearance similar to a hepatic face. Clouding of consciousness, experiencing of delusions and hallucinations were clearly evident.

Case 2: This 32-year old Thai was a labourer. He had begun using the kratom leaf daily at the age of 22 and had combined his kratom addiction with alcohol consumption for the past two years. He was confused and experienced persecutory ideation. He was admitted for two weeks; the result of the treatment was satisfactory.

Case 3: This 31-year old Thai was a married labourer who had begun eating kratom when he was 14. He complained of dizziness and headaches. He experienced hallucinations, delusion and confusion.

Only case 2 was admitted to the hospital, where major tranquillizers and supportive treatment were given. Cases 1 and 3 were out-patients, treated with major tranquillizers.

Cases 4 and 5 were psychotic patients. They had been multiple addicts, combining the use of kratom with alcohol, amphetamines and heroin. There were two cases of schizophrenia who had a history of kratom addiction and who were still users. While they were limited in social activity, they were good workers. None of them has relapsed during the past 10 years.
Discussion

Kratom addicts in the sample studied were all Thai subjects, no Chinese addict was found in the area. The only discovered kratom addiction occurred among the Thai ethnic group. Norakarnphadung (1968) analysed data of drug addicts in 1960. There Were 3,384 cases registered who were admitted to the government opium treatment centre at Rangsit. Of these, only 2,000 were selected for investigation. These patients were divided into three groups: (i) Thai heroin addicts with a recent date of onset of use, combining heroin with kratom, about 5.5%; no Chinese were amongst these users; (ii) opium users who had switched to heroin, using the kratom leaf as well, about 11.5%; in this group Chinese users were represented by 0.93%; (iii) opium addicts also using the kratom leaf, 6.5%, with no Chinese amongst this group. It may be concluded that kratom addiction is culture-bound.

The reasons for starting the use of kratom are different from those given by opium users (Westermeyer, 1974). There was no subject in the sample who took kratom because of chronic illness. Kratom users have a strong desire to do more work and to make more money. They learned how to use the leaf from others. One factor in kratom leaf addiction is its cheapness and relative availability within the area, another is the cost factor, 100 kratom leaves costing 5 baht (25 United States cents).

Subjects in the sample began addictive use between adolescence and their mid30s. The mean age is higher than that of heroin addicts (Norakarnphadung, 1968). The proportion between male and female Thai addicts indicated a much higher ratio for the male group. Kratom use is rural in origin, with a cultural factor playing an important role; apparently society accepts male addicts who work to support their family, but do not accept female addicts.

Progression to kratom addiction is a gradual process with increases in dosage and frequency of use. Withdrawal symptoms of either minor or major severity are similar to those observed during withdrawal from other narcotics. There was only one who wanted to terminate addiction. In the early stages of addiction subjects can work hard and make good progress in semi-skilled and unskilled manual work. However after prolonged addiction their energy store often drops because of physical and psychiatric disturbances. There is no report of kratom use amongst students.

The measure chosen by law to control kratom addiction by banning the cultivation of the tree has not been found to be effective, since it is a local plant. It is hoped that drug education for the rural youth in areas where kratom can be grown will be a more effective step towards its control.
Acknowledgement

The author is deeply indebted to Professor Phon Sansingkeo for his help in the preparation of this paper, and to many co-workers without whose co-operation these studies could not have been accomplished.
Bibliography

Amattayakul T., The kraton leaves. J. Department of Medical Sciences, Thailand, vol. 2: 2, 104-108, 1960.

Norakarnphadung P., Analytic Data of Drug Addicts in Management of Narcotic Drug Dependence in Thanyarak Hospital, Thailand, 1968.

Phillipson D. J. and J. E. Shellard. The Alkaloid Content of some Asian Species of Mitragyna. School of Pharmacy, Chelsea College of Science and Technology, London, 1965.

Westermeyer J., Opium Smoking in Laos: A survey of 40 addicts. Am. J. Psychiatry, 131: 2, 165-170, 1974.

 

[Elevator Man]

Wow - that sounds hardcore stuff...! Although given some of the effects (remarkably useful ones for an addictive drug, I might add), I'm surprised it hasn't caught the attention of more governments...

The most important aspect for this kind of addict is a strong desire to work on his plot, in the rice field, or do other manual work. He can work from morning until evening, even though it may be very hot and the sun bright at midday.

Oh, and two more seeds are splitting - I was wondering if I'd ever see another open...