Terra Preta - Dark Soil - Experiment

[SilverSurfer_OG]

Ya the char is a sponge for whatever you add and for whatever microbes are looking to colonise the airspaces in the char.

I have heard some mention of char made from manures being a good thing... but i have no idea if they are retaining their NPK. I have read for instance that corn cobs are very high in potassium and this is retained or even concentrated in the ash if burnt/charred.

For good amounts of P the organic guru whose workshop i attended advised to use a high scilica rock dust such as Azomite or his recommendation: FCRD. http://www.fcrd.com.au/

Furthermore, phosphorous fixation is a major problem. Phosphorus fixation is the process whereby added Phosphorus is not taken up by the plant because it becomes fixed in the soil. Adding a wide range of minerals helps to unlock the excess phosphorous and nitrogen and therefore making the use of traditional NPK fertilisers much more effective and efficient.

FCRD suggests to users of NPK fertilisers that they can reduce their costs by using significantly less traditional fertilisers, by adding a portion of FCRD (to release the full potential of the traditional fertilisers) and still maintain or increase yield . The upside comes from an increase in soil quality due to the addition of organic nutrients.

FCRD contains:

* Volcanic rock - 90% finer than 0.250 mm
* Silicates - Necessary in building plant protein in the cell wall. Their strengthening qualities are vital in protecting against insect and fungal attack.
* Calcium - Required for cell division and as a component of cell walls.
* Magnesium - A key part of the chlorophylls, which perform photosynthesis.
* Iron - Aids in the promotion and regulation of plant growth.
* Potassium - Strengthens plant stalks
* Phosphorous - Energy food for plants
* Trace Minerals - Plant growth can suffer without these. FCRD contains over 70 macro and micronutrients not found in commercial NPK fertilisers.

The average composition of FCRD expressed as oxides is:

SiO2 43%
Fe2O3 13%
Al2O3 13%
MgO 11%
CaO 9%
Na2O 2%
TiO2 2%
K2O 2%

As elements, the average composition is:

Silicon 22%
Iron 11%
Aluminium 8%
Calcium 7%
Magnesium 6%
Sodium 2%
Titanium 2%
Potassium 1%

 

[descivii]

So if a bed was 36" deep and say 3' x 6', that should be suitable for no-turn? Is there any reason not to do something like this? Any ideas or concerns? I really like the idea

J.

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

I am thinking the only reason not to do this would be lack of permanent or available space. They must be very heavy so once they in place they aint going anywhere in a hurry!

I am now torn between either building some nice shelfs for 10litre hempy buckets vert/cage style, huge pots with layered medium or making a huge bed knowing it will have to be emptied/pulled down in a year or three...

 

[mad librettist]

the work only makes you stronger, and nothing is permanent.

go for the huge bed!

 

[descivii]

A basement would be ideal so that support is squared away, that would also take care of the permanence as well assuming you own the property. I am also thinking that it would be nice if I could raise it up on a layer of pallets or similar so that any excess water could actually be drained away via spigot or similar. I have alot of landscape experience and it shouldn't be shit to build an indoor raised bed. Possibly a mix of block and wood for the main 4 walls.

What if landscape felt is used inside the walls of the bed as a "smart bed" so to speak? Would that be a good idea?

If it is the walls then a liner of felt with rails around the inside of walls to keep felt from just laying flush against inner wall thus allowing some soil breathing without excessive drying. Does this sound logical?

Underneath the felt liner I think it would be nice if there were a mild slant so that excess will move away from soil.

If this is 36" and it's on pallets then that puts it around 40"+ tall and that seems like it might be awkward to work with soil or plants at opposite end so it'll need to be accessible all the way around or mostly at least.........What if there were an upper wall above the actual bed walls, that went all the way around and they could be opened like cabinet doors so that when closed they provide the light reflection but can be opened to access the plant or soil.

At this point, I am planning to light with 2x CMH and I also have a 1000wtt HPS if I want to use as well.

I want alot of input if possible because of the permanent nature, it wouldn't be very easy to change anything once in place.

J.

P.S. I like what you guys were sayin on last page about a base layer of clay and then start workin my way up from there.

 

[MrFista]

The char might get soaked in nutrients, but this gets taken up in biomass, an initial nutritional addition occurs only because you added nutrients, over time the char is not a nutrient source it is a microbial haven.

This is a little pedantic, but helps understanding when moving towards no or low fert inputs. Nutrients can be locked inside the char particles but a biofilm will surround it and nutrient exchange will be via the food web.

Now - low - no ferts. I'm rethinking this. I consider adding animals to a system a wise (more like nature and outdoors) move, a sustainable move. Natural or domestic guanos or addition (sparingly) of product guanos might imitate nature and terra preta soils more accurately. Natural mulches from the vegetation, dotted with guanos from the fauna.

However, I'm stil running along nicely without having recently needed to add any guanos or similar to my bed. But when I get chickens, I'll be using some of the composted guano heavy mulch they make, albeit sparingly. Surely nature knows better than me. i wish i could find the trials of that place they're running all those years... anyone?

descivii

Keep thinking it over if it's to be permanent, put some pots in the space as if it is a bed, do this first and grow weed and see how the air flows, the smell, the temps and the access etc. Does the basement flood in winter, does the soil freeze, you need to think about the environment carefully and growing plants in it will really help you figure your final configuration out. Planning can be incremental and productive in this manner.

Nothing to stop you putting a bed on wheels. You got mobile permanence yeah! Beds on wheels would be the shit if you got concrete floors and good wheels. Make a circular bed you got yourself a giant lazy suzan spinning bud machine to access all sides in a small space. A circular scrog built over and attached to such a bed would be freaking awesome.

What I'm saying, take your time, think outside the box a bit, and monitor the space with plants in it for unforeseen shit happening (like ants living in basement, or rats hehe...)

 

[MrFista]

Wondering about your depth. Unless it is necessary, don't add it. So what studies do we have, what depth does cannabis require when it has a decent mulch cover. Clone roots are adventitious and shallow and branch out, seedlings will tap deeper, how deep?

You can save yourself huge time effort and expense finding answers to these questions. Must be common knowledge to some folks here.

 

[mad librettist]

Heya Fista,

remember, just because roots don't colonize at a certain depth does not make what goes on there irrelevant. I would think a simple wick to avoid rot, or even better, a secondary crop that likes shade and won't compete with shallower roots like daikon or a deep rooted herb like dandelion would keep things in balance.

I would not raise the bed to drain it. Just use a non-biodegradable wick. If your pallets start to rot you will be very screwed.

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

I guess root depth would be relative to what size plants you want to finish with. Would be very tempting to go for lb plants and they would have deeper root mass i reckon. Different strains may have different root growth. Not sure. Most root balls i dig up outdoors dont go down much further than 2ft. But then thats usually where the clay layer starts.

I wouls be looking for a good balance of surface area to be able to fit in a few plants. I
am thinking 2ft depth of soil with a few inches of clay on the bottom.

It would be cool to have a dandelion or 2 next to each main plant. This could also be done in large pots. Might help with the rot if there are deep rooted plants wicking up excess moisture.

No idea how plywood or landscaping fabric would hold up. The fabric is certainly cheap and quite strong. 2 double layers on wooden frame would work i reckon.

I could make beds on wheels if they were rectangular and able to get through door frames.

 

[bushdriver]

cheers for clearing that up guys, it makes sense that the carbon is the only retaining part of the structure...
but part of me still feels that the low temp pyrolysis doesn't volatize all the elements and keeps some bound to the carbon for much slower release, the nutes from the pre soak may get used up in a round but the carbon bound nutes may stick around for a lot longer.. just some speculation, i'm not pretending i know this is so..
nb, with the char i made there was no ash... does this mean to say ash is the result of the elements being volatized? ie oidized

anyway cheers im not relying on char as my only ferts..... that rock dust sounds shiny! i just ground a small amount of granite into a mix understanding that it is very high in silica too, but also very basic... i have started using some volcanic rock dust recently and it gives the plants a new shine, there is an underlying light blue tinge to the leaves and they look magical... over and out, bush

 

[MrFista]

Correct - the nutes leftover from pyrolisation are present, and low temp those tars etc are food for microbes. But they're not so shit hot. Get some low temp tarry bubbly looking char and put it in a pot your plant will starve. It's not the nutes that count with char whether the char has nutes or not, it's the micro inhabitants.

Char is not a significant nute source we're talking centuries old soil in terra preta the natives piss and shit is long gone - char doesn't supply nutes it houses microbes the initial nutes it has are insufficient to feed a crop we have to enrich it to kick it off, to feed the microbes that inhabit it.

Char isn't nutes yet it helps eradicate 'nutes' eventually. I know it's all backward. Had to read far too much and lose far too much social life to get it in my head straight. When you add the mulch and guanos a soil kicking ass without ferts is not such a great surprise. Why? Char provides the chemical and physical structures for microbes and plants to flourish. Water retention, porosity, carbon exchange capacity, increased worm activity - this is 5 star hotel accomodation for plants (the primary producers of all our bounty) we're talking about. Add some mulch and guanos to feed the microbes the whole thing is a growing machine, an ecosystem well beyond the concept of 'nutes'. It's an ecosystem, terra preta, that is why it persists, that is how to understand it.

 

[bushdriver]

thanks for reverifying that for me, as with everything i tend to put too much importance in my most recent discovery temporarily forgetting it is the synergy of things that really counts..

 

[Mizzafishkilla]

Quick and easy Bio Char maker:

 

[Mizzafishkilla]

Let's try this...

 

[norichips]

http://www.delinat-institut.org/main.html

just found this place, not all the information is in english but you can get the jist with google translator. Seems like a lot of studies with biochar.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

What would be the best choice for starting a bio-char process from the following:

1. Activated charcoal - $1.65 per lb. @ 25 lb. minimum
2. Bone charcoal - $2.00 per lb. @ 50 lb. minimum
3. Lump charcoal - really, really cheap

Thanks!

CC

 

[jaykush]

bone char huh. that sounds interesting. quite expensive though.

i started out with lump, the only problem is getting it to a smaller particle size. other than that its good stuff.

 

[SilverSurfer_OG]

Thats a handy looking charmaker Mizza

I am still sold on the hollow concrete blocks for keeping it simple stupid (or sophisticated)

Would the bone retain any nutrients like extra P i wonder?

I was thinking the other day why char something benificial like chicken poop that has perhaps more benefit in a compost pile with char from wood? I guess if you have a shitload charring it might be good

 

[Scrappy4]

I was watching the history channel (or was it pbs?) and they were talking about storing hydrogen for use in autos. Apparently storing it in hollow tanks takes huge tanks. Micro sized, carbon tubes made in a lab and then put in the tank worked well. A cheaper alternative to making carbon tubes was to use charred chicken feathers. It seems like they hold tons of hydrogen pretty effectively. Then, of course I got thinking about charring either feathers or feather meal for growing my soil. What do you learned pot scientists think?

scrappy

 

[Stankie]

Here is my method . . . I make char on a small (very) time scale for my medical garden. Easy to find a metal tin/container with a rather tight fitting lid. This is an old popcorn tin I bought from a boyscout who came door-to-door. Drill two holes in the lid to let the combustible gases to escape. 4-5 hours inside my fireplace and I have some proper biochar.

I use untreated (obviously) kiln dried fir 2"x4" as my carbon source. Usually free if you go by new construction and ask if you can take the scraps. I may try an 'already crushed' carbon source next time like rice hulls or something similar.

I've always heard to keep your fresh biochar in a low oxygen environment for 2 days after making. Or just soak it in water.
Re: Spontaneous combustion concerns. I'm not an expert, but I heed warnings. I usually soak in water and alfalfa/kelp.