Terpene profile: Sinsemilla v.s. seeded

[aus2canibasiva]

I hope this isn't a re-post...

I was wondering if there's a difference in the terpene profile (and maybe the amount of cannabinoids) of sinsemilla buds versus seeded ones.
There's a thread (unfortunately, I can't find it again) explaining the different glands and their purposes. So I thought that maybe the cannabis plants, because they realise whether or not they've been pollinated, change the secondary metabolite composition of the trichomes on their flowers after pollination or during seed maturation. Seems logic because the needs (p. ex. for protection by the calyces) of early flowers and sees are different.
If so, that might explain why the trip of old school weed was allegedly different than the one of modern hybrids...

What do you think? Is there literature to back it up?

Hey there Only Ornamental

Inherently the genetics of a given strain should dictate what terpenes are produced unless they are changed by a terpenoid influencing compound like Methyl Jasmonate, there are others that stimulate or depress certain terpenes. I am not sure if the terpene profile changes as a result of a plant going in to seed production,


"Capitate-Stalked: Cannabinoids are most abundant in the capitate-stalked glands, These capitate-stalked glands appear during flowering and form their densest cover on the female flower bracts [specialized leaves that cover the seeds]"
SOURCE: http://www.cannabisculture.com/content/inside-trichome

Now whether the terpenes or cannabinoids change on the "[specialized leaves that cover the seeds]" when the plant goes into seed is unknown to me but I would say genetics would still keep the terpene profile regardless of whether it forms into seeded cannabis or a stays sensimilla plant.

(and maybe the amount of cannabinoids) of sinsemilla buds versus seeded ones.

I would say there would be less cannabinoids due to energy requirements going into forming seeds.

I was wondering if there's a difference in the terpene profile

It may be muted due to energy loss.

In the end i'm not sure about the terpene profile being changed due to a plant seeding
it may change secondary metabolites which influence the end result of a plants terpene profile

There's a link that may explain the different types of glands and there purposes further up in this post.

Peace.

 

[aus2canibasiva]

Wrong, monoterpens, like Myrcene and Limonene do modify the Cannabis THC high.
Maybe it is time to go back to school?
I do know this.
It has been proven over and over, just not in print in an science article you can find..
-SamS

Here is a relative article

http://www.medicaljane.com/2013/09/23/terpenes-may-improve-effectiveness-of-medical-marijuana/#

Check it!

Peace & Happy Growing!

 

[Only Ornamental]

Inherently the genetics of a given strain should dictate what terpenes are produced unless they are changed by a terpenoid influencing compound like Methyl Jasmonate, there are others that stimulate or depress certain terpenes. I am not sure if the terpene profile changes as a result of a plant going in to seed production
...
Now whether the terpenes or cannabinoids change on the "[specialized leaves that cover the seeds]" when the plant goes into seed is unknown to me but I would say genetics would still keep the terpene profile regardless of whether it forms into seeded cannabis or a stays sensimilla plant.
...
In the end i'm not sure about the terpene profile being changed due to a plant seeding
it may change secondary metabolites which influence the end result of a plants terpene profile
...

Eh mate,
Thanks for your opinion. Unfortunately, the genetic make-up only determines a potential (the chemotype, but not the profile aka relative amounts).
Terpenes are secondary metabolites and amongst those being heavily influenced by environmental factors (climate, soil, predators etc.); jasmonate is only one of many second messengers transducing these signals.
There's no way (yet) to predict the relative composition of an essential oil in response to external (i.e. environment) and internal (e.g. seeds) changes based solely on scientific background. Companies like Firmenich (apart from the world leader Givaudan the biggest producer of flavours in Switzerland) try to figure out what influences essential oils and alike by observation (GC-sniff, UPLC-MS, principal component analysis etc) because they can't with pure logic.
That's why I ask here if anyone has experience (first hand preferred) with that.

 

[aus2canibasiva]

heavily influenced by environmental factors (climate, soil, predators etc.
Yes it does seem to have a very complex nature, so many variables.

Ill be using Methyl jasmonate soon & cant wait to get some results to paper!

Hey Only Ornamental what are the implications of your below quote, more CBD rich cannabis potentially? or am I getting it wrong, I'm new to the world of hormones.

"change the secondary metabolite composition of the trichomes on their flowers after pollination or during seed maturation."

 

[Only Ornamental]

Hey Only Ornamental what are the implications of your below quote, more CBD rich cannabis potentially? or am I getting it wrong, I'm new to the world of hormones.

"change the secondary metabolite composition of the trichomes on their flowers after pollination or during seed maturation."

No, because you can't change the genotype (which in case of cannabis is reflected in the chemotype). The ability to synthesize CBD or THC is genetically determined (BT allele for THC and BD allele for CBD). Either the plant can or can not produce CBD. Well, a THC chemo-/genotype produces small amounts of CBD because the THC synthase is not perfect; the same applies to CBD plants.
Now, in case it can, then the amount produced may change as a response to an internal or external stimulus (e.g. flowering, synthetic hormones etc.).
I said trichomes because they are the main source for interesting secondary metabolites in cannabis. I could have omitted this term completely and it wouldn't change anything.
Before I go into detail, do you know what a secondary metabolite is?

 

[aus2canibasiva]

No sir/mam I am not proficient enough yet for the terminology you speak of, i'm willing to learn of coarse, i'm new to this aspect of cannabis growing, but I find it extremely complex & by complex I mean fun!

I know what a genetic allele is.
I know that genetics plays a huge part in whether a given strain can produce CBD or not.

I would love to know more

 

[Only Ornamental]

Okay, secondary metabolites are those metabolites (metabolites are all the molecules produced by an organism) which aren't imminently necessary for survival and are produced by basically all living organisms, unlike the primary metabolites. The latter ones comprise of amino acids (proteins), carbohydrates ('sugar, starch & cellulose'), lipids ('fat & oil'), and nucleic acids (DNA & RNA). Basically, everything else the plant produces may be regarded as secondary metabolite. Some secondary metabolites are often not classified as such like phytohormones, lignin or second messengers, even if they are clearly very important for survival.
The basic 'secondary metabolites' in cannabis are essential oil (IC Mag members usually call them 'terpenes') and cannabinoids (actually, these are terpenoids or terpene-like molecules but no one calls them so).

And now, I forgot what I originally intended to write and why... sorry...

EDIT: It would be 'Sir' or, if you prefer it even more formal, even 'Dr.'

 

[aus2canibasiva]

Dr Ornamental it is then!
Or Professor Ornamental!!!


Ill catch up on reading tomorrow Dr Ornamental, time to hit the hay, nice talking with you, cheers for teaching me something.

Peace.

 

[Tonygreen]

Reading back through this and I wonder trichome production influenced by seed or sins?
I guess terpene production can be slowed even though trich production may remain consistent?

 

[stoned-trout]

sensi wins....yeehaw

 

[MostlyMe]

I can't believe nobody spotted this, but from the link Sam gave, you cannot conclude terpene production is cut in half by pollination. The yield is expressed as liters of essential oil per hectare, so it could just as well be pollinated plants just produce less flowers, hence less resin and hence less terpenes. Individual flowers might still produce just as much terpenes.

I am also puzzled why in table 4 pollination is given a '+' for yield.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

The terpene yield is less because it is seeded. Simple. It really makes little difference why, the bottom line is to produce max terpene yields per hectare and seeded does not do this.
-SamS

I can't believe nobody spotted this, but from the link Sam gave, you cannot conclude terpene production is cut in half by pollination. The yield is expressed as liters of essential oil per hectare, so it could just as well be pollinated plants just produce less flowers, hence less resin and hence less terpenes. Individual flowers might still produce just as much terpenes.

I am also puzzled why in table 4 pollination is given a '+' for yield.

 

[MostlyMe]

The terpene yield is less because it is seeded. Simple. It really makes little difference why, the bottom line is to produce max terpene yields per hectare and seeded does not do this.
-SamS

I disagree. From that data you can't tell whether terpene production itself is reduced, or the pollinated plants made less flowers and hence a lower total amount of terpenes. It could also be both of course. We need to know how much material they collected and distilled to produce the essential oils.

A gram of seeded bud (with seeds removed) still could have an equal amount of terpenes compared to a gram of non-seeded.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I can't tell if you are serious.
Regardless if the bud weight is seeded or unseeded the terpene yield per hectare is less with seeded then unseeded. The overall weight of the materials produced does not matter, it is the terpenes per hectare that counts. And unseeded yields more.
-SamS

I disagree. From that data you can't tell whether terpene production itself is reduced, or the pollinated plants made less flowers and hence a lower total amount of terpenes. It could also be both of course. We need to know how much material they collected and distilled to produce the essential oils.

A gram of seeded bud (with seeds removed) still could have an equal amount of terpenes compared to a gram of non-seeded.

 

[Dropped Cat]

I can't tell if you are serious.
Regardless if the bud weight is seeded or unseeded the terpene yield per hectare is less with seeded then unseeded. The overall weight of the materials produced does not matter, it is the terpenes per hectare that counts. And unseeded yields more.
-SamS

But is the profile different from sensi vs seeded.

Surely no commercial grower produces seeded bud for sale.
I've never heard anyone say "this seeded bud is awesome!"

Some have said that seeded bud has desirable traits
that the same cultivar as sensi does not.

Personal preference perhaps.

I've had both, but it does come down to yield/potency.

As it must.

 

[MostlyMe]

I can't tell if you are serious.
Regardless if the bud weight is seeded or unseeded the terpene yield per hectare is less with seeded then unseeded. The overall weight of the materials produced does not matter, it is the terpenes per hectare that counts. And unseeded yields more.
-SamS

I'm very serious! It's not terpenes per hectare that counts, because we don't smoke distilled essential oils. We smoke buds, so it's terpene amount per gram of bud we want to know. And that can't be deduced from these data.

In fact, this article equally supports the commonly held notion that pollination decreases yield, but doesn't affect potency. Not saying that's the case, just that you can't rule it out based on this article.

Can't believe no one ever did the simple experiment of flowering out two clones, pollinating one and do a full analysis.

 

[Sam_Skunkman]

I have done it many times, terpenes are decreased in seeded Cannabis, every time. And it is terpenes per hectare that count, as more Cannabis is extracted, for terpenes and Cannabinoids the yield per hectare is what counts. Remember that the article reviewed mostly hemp varieties not drug that would have potency...

 

[MostlyMe]

Yes, for that particular study it is the yield per hectare that counts. Same if you extract your buds and assume the study applies to drug varieties as well. But if it's buds you smoke, you can't tell from this study if seeded is less potent than unseeded. A common view seems to be pollination reduces yield, but not potency. That is consistent with the study results, but so is the reverse.

 

[Betterhaff]

Alkaloids, cannabinoids, flavinoids, terpenoids, + others. When will we honestly know with Cannabis?

 

[angelgoob]

First of all: Nice quote! Was looking for something like that.

Now to your statements (don't take my nitpicking criticism personal):

'a wider range of terpenes to protect the developing seeds'
The plant is likely to protect flowers too (or produce tremendous amounts to be sure some survive, the way cannabis produces pollen in excess). A gamete is way more fragile than a dark coloured, thick-shelled seed and also require its share of protection. Maybe a gamete (or a flower) needs more protection from UV and chemical challenges whereas a seed needs protection from predatory birds. This doesn't imply a wider range of different terpenes but maybe a completely different resin composition. A hypothetical example would be: During flowering cannabinoids and myrcene agains UV and fungi, during early seed maturation limonene agains caterpillars and in late seed maturation caryophyllene and cineole to repel birds and attract beneficial insects like ladybugs. (This example is made up and has no scientific value!)

'intense uv rays from the sun and HID lights'
Intense UV from common HIDs: ROFLMFAO (no further comment on that one)

'So in my humble opinion unseeded cannabis is missing something, including certain terpenes it might not produce in unseeded bud.'
Yes, in a biological way it is missing something but that lack may push the plant to intervene. It already produces a lot more flowers and may also change resin content. I don't see why it should lack terpenes though; a well seeded plant could also decide that 'life is good and nothing needs to be done', so save the effort and stop producing resin LoL.

'If terpenes add to or modulate the high in some way...'
Right, but it may also be that the lack or exchange of a certain constituent causes the seeded herb to please DJ Short better. Who knows? And maybe someone prefers the trip of sinsemilla and thinks that seeded one is crap?

I was like isn't that shit trying to protect that gamete, then I saw what you wrote 3 seconds after. Weird.

I brung up this same topic Sam didn't think it changed. Others talked about potency. I guess which chemicals protect from which types of light also. Far red drying them out. UV lights destroying DNA. You'd have to look at the specific absorptino spectra and it just so happen THC protects from something UVC or close.

I'm on my first page of the thread so this is reserved for my further postings also! I've always wanted to do that.