Synthetic yields more then organics; myth?

[Mr Celsius]

I have yet to understand, from a scientific standpoint, why most people believe synthetic fertilizers will provide larger yields then organics. Is there actually any substantial evidence showing any truth to this?

Honestly yield isn't that big of a deal to me, but I'd like to know if this is true or not. I think many are motivated by yields, in the style of growing. So if I could provide empirical evidence showing that those system yields are merely myths, I believe more people would be willing to grow organic.

for what its worth. I humble thank you in advance.

 

[Pimpslapped]

I've never really heard 'Synthetic' outyields 'Organic' as such, usually what I hear is that Hydroponics (Most often done with synsthetic/chemical ferts) outyields soil.

The reasons for the Hydro advantage would likely be that you can control exactly what the plant receives in the way of nutrients and fine tune that to a very high degree. Much more difficult to do with organics in soil.

 

[Mr Celsius]

Ok I'll put it in universal terms: Synthetics (salt based) nutrients = Hydroponic nutrients.

 

[Sheriff Bart]

well, i dont much care if synthetic yields more because synthetics are full of nasty shit that i wont let any of my plants get touched by! even if it did yield more, is it worth your health? and the health of everything around you? i dont think so....

 

[Horus]

I don't think the plant knows or cares if it gets its nutrients from EVIL CHEMICALZ SOLD BY WAL-MART!!! or some bat guano. It's just a plant ;-)

 

[Dignan]

It's not that synthetics can yield more per plant, but that in most cases (i.e. when someone doesn't have organics absolutely dialed-in) a plant given synthetic ferts will grow faster and thus reach harvest faster. Same harvest/yield, but gets there faster.

If someone has organic soil dialed in, this is not the case, IMO.

 

[theFLINTSTONERS]

it's a myth . . .

many times in the past when we've tried to have rational "debates" on the issue . . . we've simply been accused of stirring shit . . . (an organic gardening activity if we've ever heard of one - shit stirring that is) . . .

it's also a myth that hydroponics is easier to "dial-in" and get exactly what your plant needs to it . . . when it needs it . . . at least our opinion . . .

 

[theFLINTSTONERS]

I don't think the plant knows or cares if it gets its nutrients from EVIL CHEMICALZ SOLD BY WAL-MART!!! or some bat guano. It's just a plant ;-)

don't underestimate a plant's "intelligence" . . . they have evolved wonderfully sophisticated mechanisms to obtain nutrition . . .

and there's quite convincing evidence that two different forms of nitrogen - ammonia vs nitrate - do have different impacts on growth . . . so it's not true that a chemical is just a chemical . . . it really can matter what form it's in . . .

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

It's also a myth that hydroponics are synthetic and chemical...

Except in the general sense, that nearly everything is synthesized even if by nature...

... only crops grown from unrefined minerals are recognized as "organic". The trouble is unrefined minerals do not dissolve well for hydroponic use and some of these unrefined minerals contain quantities of impurities, some of which are toxic to plants. For that reason, FloraBloom, FloraGro, and FloraMicro are made from high quality refined minerals. This ensures high quality crop production, but prevents the crop from being considered "organic"...

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

don't underestimate a plant's "intelligence" . . . they have evolved wonderfully sophisticated mechanisms to obtain nutrition . . .

and there's quite convincing evidence that two different forms of nitrogen - ammonia vs nitrate - do have different impacts on growth . . . so it's not true that a chemical is just a chemical . . . it really can matter what form it's in . . .

Yes there is a difference in the compounds ammonia and nitrate, but since salts dissociate in a polar solution, the nitrogen ion (the only form in which N can be consumed by the plant) is exactly the same...

Incidentally, GH flora derives N from both ammonia and nitrate...

 

[Guest]

purified mineral salts must be so much healthier than bat shit ,,

 

[Guest]

it doesnt matter if you use salts or dirt if done properly the yields will be good in both...the plants do eat chemicals...elemental chemicals...organic derived or synthesized

 

[theFLINTSTONERS]

Yes there is a difference in the compounds ammonia and nitrate, but since salts dissociate in a polar solution, the nitrogen ion (the only form in which N can be consumed by the plant) is exactly the same...

Incidentally, GH flora derives N from both ammonia and nitrate...

we'd respectfully disagree with ya on that one h3ad . . .

that's the way things are taught in hydroponics it's true . . . but real life experiments have show significant differences in plant structure etc depending on the source of N (ammonia or nitrate) . . . which would certainly imply in our eyes that there is a difference . . . at least the way the plant sees it . . . even if many textbooks don't say that . . .

yet . . .

furthermore . . . the two nitrogens (ammonia vs nitrate) also have different impacts on the microbial life in soil . . .

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

disagree or not, no worries... It's all good... Cite your sources, I'll cite mine... facts are cool... evidence always trumps supposition...

 

[gromer]

Myth,big myth.HUGE myth.Im not gonna get into that whole elemental salts versus organic compounds,which is better argument.I have fought that battle too many times and am unsure now of where I truly stand.
But I will say as far as yield one can yield just as much in soil with organic nutrients as one growing with liquid synthetic nutes in a hydroponics system.Its a common misunderstanding that hydro yields more than soil.I will say its probably easier to attain a gram per watt or more in a hydro system especially an aero system.But one can tune their organic feeds in and figure out how to pull down the same.It took me over 2 years to do it.Its all in figuring out nutrient ratios,what the plant needs and when and strength and period of release on said nutrients.

Like how much of the stated NPK is readily available to the plant.How much isnt and if so when and how long is it released for.Figuring all this out can take time,research and dedication. Some things that some people, or most people I should say, even wanna devote themselves to.They wanna have it be very simple.A+B=C type growing and thats where this common misconception that hydro and synthetics will yield more than soil and organics comes from.Just because MOST people never see a gram per watt+ with organic soil doesnt mean that everyone doesnt.I do, and have for the last two runs.Over 6 cyles my yield increased an average of 5 oz until my last harvest,in a multi strain garden of 3 and 1 gallon containers yielded 36 oz. under 1000 watt light.That for me was an accomplishment.
I am predicting that my next bed harvest will either meet or beat that.Again multi strain garden under 1000 watts only this time 25 plants in a 4x4x1 ft bed.Not too shabby for a skinny white guy that doesnt know what the hell hes doin...LOL!!!
So keep the faith folks! YOUEEE CAN DOEE EEEETTT!!!!Just set your goals high and dont give up.Keep on readin and researchin.Experimenting and persuing.In no time youll be rollin in piles of the finest tastin smoke to be had by man.And when your there rolling in yer organic bliss you can look to the heavens and think...Ya Know what the Gromer was right......LOL!!BUhahahahahhaaha!!!

 

[floppyfundanglr]

well organics is more feeding the soil and not the plant. The microbials produce the food if im not mistaken. Kind of a symbiotic relationship shared with the roots and its attendents. As long as you observe your plants you should be fine a lot of problems people have as far as final product is more genetics than feeding.

peace

peace

 

[SensimillaWolf]

Back to the original question: When used properly, do synthetic fertilizers produce higher yield than a properly prepared organic soil?

I know good growers can get 1g/w, but can either synthetic or organic growers reach 2 or 2.5 g/w? Does anyone have a documented grow diary to show either?

I suppose it could be easily faked or just lied about but its worth investigating.

 

[Grat3fulh3ad]

No, I do not think Properly grown Mineral Hydroponics yields significantly more than properly grown organic... Nor do I think that there is much difference at all in the finished product between the different methods, as long as it is properly grown....
I do find purified mineral nutrients much simpler to work with, with a much longer shelf life....

 

[B.C.]

Along time ago I used ebb and flo/bubbler type rubbermaid tubs usein BC nutes.Along side 4 gal buckets filled with FF soil.I used FF nutes on the soil.But before I started, I put a ton of holes in the bottom and even up the sides (about 2") of the buckets.I also added about 30% perlite to the soil. The room was sealed and co2 added.I used a 1k watt horti fer a light on a rail mover.Both did very well,but in the end the soil out yeilded the sythetic nutes in hydro.I know that this is by no means conclusive,and many factors figure in,strain,how crowded they were etc...but it's good enough fer me.In order ta be fair I think both would have ta be done all in soil or all in hydrne thing I think would help the organic side of things is havein lots of air in yer soil.Mixin a lite soil means ya water more,which means more air gets to yer microherd and that increases the activity.The more activity the more they eat so the more yer plants will eat.This is also why the more you turn a compost pile (adding air) the quicker it will turn to compost.Air is the key ta growin fast and big in soil or hydro.Also,some think organics are slow ta feed.Not true, it depends how broke down the orgnanics are.If they are broke down enough the plant can feed from it aswell as the microherd.My 2 cents.Take care...BC

 

[jaykush]

Like how much of the stated NPK is readily available to the plant.How much isnt and if so when and how long is it released for.Figuring all this out can take time,research and dedication. Some things that some people, or most people I should say, even wanna devote themselves to.They wanna have it be very simple.A+B=C type growing and thats where this common misconception that hydro and synthetics will yield more than soil and organics comes from.Just because MOST people never see a gram per watt+ with organic soil doesnt mean that everyone doesnt.I do, and have for the last two runs.Over 6 cyles my yield increased an average of 5 oz until my last harvest,in a multi strain garden of 3 and 1 gallon containers yielded 36 oz. under 1000 watt light.That for me was an accomplishment.

everything well put. it is a big fat myth for sure, properly grown soil will match properly grown hydro in yield if the conditions are right, and outdoors put hydro to shame. nothing grows like a organic cannabis plant under the big light in the sky. even with both if something is off itl work but not like if everything is dead on for the plant. and this changes from strain to strain. growing the same plant more than once is smart, with your best soil mix strain A could perform like no other and strain B just does sub par, but mix a little of this, lighten it up a little here add some of that and strain B could far surpass strain A.

i agree too most people just want nugs fast. and an A+B=C formula is what most people feel safe using and works best for that. organic growers are more dedicated to what goes in and what comes out with there plants. and the gram per watt, im not exactly sure what it was but in the "3lb jungle of green" post didn't they say yields of up to 2 grams per watt with organics. i might have to go check but im pretty sure, maybe they can chime in on that.