STS Damaged Pollen and Hermie Madness: Has Anyone Taken the NEXT Step?

[CreeperStipule]

Larmarck can kiss my ass, Darwin all the way. Yes there are repair cycles, but taking a peak and directing evolution to suit the environment, or better yet, the activities of the parent? Nah man, nah. It's random, it works or it perishes.

There are other things to consider with the famine argument. Perhaps those who required more food to survive perished or faired less well than those smaller individuals. This could hinder the reproduction of larger individuals creating an uneven distribution in the offspring. I can't say either way.

Hahahaha I suppose I look at it like in construction, architects and engineers come up with the blue print, sub contractor has the construction and as built drawings and the fellas on site fuck it up.... or DNA > RNA > PROTEINS
If a gene is off due to say an enviromental influence is it copied to the RNA? I say no and in construction terms it would be on the architects drawing but not the sub contractors (perhaps clouded on architects saying issue) now how do the fellas on site build it?
Anyway I think it is a mistake to discount Larmarck or we discount epigenetics to a degree no?

 

[CreeperStipule]

Larmarck can kiss my ass, Darwin all the way. Yes there are repair cycles, but taking a peak and directing evolution to suit the environment, or better yet, the activities of the parent? Nah man, nah. It's random, it works or it perishes.

There are other things to consider with the famine argument. Perhaps those who required more food to survive perished or faired less well than those smaller individuals. This could hinder the reproduction of larger individuals creating an uneven distribution in the offspring. I can't say either way.

Yet don't moths tell a different story?

 

[CreeperStipule]

Are we looking for a crazy unique outlier or predictable genetics and stability?

This for me just like with women.

 

[GMT]

@smirnoff420 yeah colloidal silver works any silver solution strong enough works. It would be interesting to know if copper would also work.

Epigenetics isn't Lamarck, it's still random. Some individuals will have their genes turned on or off and others won't. Those with the useful reaction will fair better, but there's no judgement prior to the outcome. No intelligence at work.

 

[GMT]

Moths?

Oh and don't go for the outliers with women, these days they are men

 

[CreeperStipule]

@smirnoff420 yeah colloidal silver works any silver solution strong enough works. It would be interesting to know if copper would also work.

Epigenetics isn't Lamarck, it's still random. Some individuals will have their genes turned on or off and others won't. Those with the useful reaction will fair better, but there's no judgement prior to the outcome. No intelligence at work.

Lamarck proposed in 1802 the concept that environment can directly alter phenotype in a heritable manner. That is pretty much epigenetics at play is it not? or do you prefer transgenerational epigenetic inheritance.
But just getting back to the statement of Rna does not change Dna what about say with HIV? anyway not sure why it has to be Darwin or Lamarck and not a bit of both.

Yes moths and a fast adaption to the change in environment specific to industrial revolution, Darwins evolution sped up

 

[CreeperStipule]

Moths?

Oh and don't go for the outliers with women, these days they are men

Just the crazy ones will do, always more fun. I think you'll find it's the opposite these days the outliers are now women (are you even allowed to just call them that)

 

[Tynehead Tom]

I think the problem lies in not fully stress testing the parent stock the fem seeds are being made with.
If rigorous stressing to try and induce hermie is successfull and a the plant shows nanners it is not a candidate for selfing. Lots of modern genetics will hermie out with stress,,, light leaks, drought, overwatering ect ect.
If the female stock remains stable after rigorous stress testing then it is a better candidate for selfing.
I wonder how many breeders of fem seeds go through the work involved to properly stress test thier potential breeding stock before the pollen flies?

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

@CreeperStipule RNA is just a mirror of DNA that gets cut up and floats off to get shit done. The content of the RNA would not change, its ability to get shit done may be affected though.

The DNA in flowers is created during formation. So when you remove all the copper and then flowers form, the DNA in those flowers formed without copper.

I'm pretty sure the answer to this is going to be found in what happens in DNA formation without copper.

Let's skip the social media programming and stick to plants altered by silver to the point the pods do not open, yeah? Thank you so much.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Why is sodium thiosulfate needed anyway? I tried it with 0.1g silver nitrate per 0.2L water and it worked. Lots of pollen.

Cannot tell yet how the plants from these seeds turn out however.

I'm really only interested in this if you over applied the silver and had to crush the pods to get the pollen out. Should you happen to get a hermie madness situation and grow out a few thousand seeds, please be sure to post it here. Let's stay on topic.

Thank you so much!

 

[CreeperStipule]

Does the Stamen/Anther not opening only ever happen when you over use the STS? I've had it happen on males (non reversed) and had plenty of "wet" like pollen before where you had to dry it out and crush to get the pollen but no adverse effect on the progeny (that I could see/tell)

 

[dank.frank]

What are the disadvantages of genetically modified seeds?

GM crops disrupt the natural process of gene flow because the “better” traits produced from engineering genes can result in the favoring of one organism. It endangers farmers and trade along with the environment. It is more inclined towards the marketization of farming that works on immoral profits. Google

DC you say that Cannabis hyperemesis syndrome may come from neem molecules. To be honest I think it comes from a modified seed.

What causes CHS
Experts don’t know exactly what causes cannabis hyperemesis syndrome. Some researchers suspect "genetics" may play a role. Others believe CHS may occur due to overstimulation of your endocannabinoid system (ECS). The ECS is a network of receptors in your body that respond to compounds in cannabis.

What’s Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome (CHS)?

CHS causes cycles of severe nausea and vomiting after long-term marijuana use. You can learn more here.

my.clevelandclinic.org

Perhaps, differentiate between genetically modified and genetically engineered.

Classical plant breeding, is genetic modification and there is absolutely ZERO wrong with it.

Cannabis when feminized, does not carry a Y chromosome. It is genetically XX. That does not by default in anyway make it inherently unstable or less stable. It only means, there is no XY data to muddy the waters when sorting through offspring. That also does not imply it will therefore be inherently more stable or have less variation.

All it means, is the variation that you do see, is an expression of the single genome, and it allows you to see how much genetic variation exists in a single plant, without additional genomic factors to be considered.

It is a highly useful breeding tool that allows you to gain insight.



dank.Frank

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Does the Stamen/Anther not opening only ever happen when you over use the STS? I've had it happen on males (non reversed) and had plenty of "wet" like pollen before where you had to dry it out and crush to get the pollen but no adverse effect on the progeny (that I could see/tell)

In my limited experience with male flowers, only the reversed female pods, formed with excess silver present had the non-opening issue.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Apparently I'm on the right track...

Effects of copper deficiency on pollen fertility and nucleic acids in the durum wheat anther

• Z. Azouaou &
• A. Souvré

Sexual Plant Reproduction volume 6, pages 199–204 (1993)Cite this article

• 128 Accesses
• 11 Citations
• Metrics details

Summary​

The effects of continuous copper deficiency and of temporary deficiencies initiated prior to (initial deficiency) or after (terminal deficiency) the end of tillering (a stage preceding the meiotic cycle) on pollen formation were investigated in durum wheat grown on a nutrient solution. The effects of the treatments on pollen viability (FCR test) and on the proline content of the pollen grains suggested that copper deficiency induced a nearly complete sterility of the pollen formed and inhibited all grain production. Temporary copper deficiencies significantly reduced the viability rate and the number of proline-rich pollen grains without affecting pollengrain production. Cytophotometric measurements showed that initial copper deficiency induced a significant increase in the proportion of polyploid microspore mother cells (MMCs), whereas terminal copper deficiency blocked endomitotic DNA syntheses. Protein metabolism was markedly altered by the treatments. The RNA content of the cytoplasm of tapetum cells was decreased by 34%–48%, depending on the treatment. The autoradiographic study showed that the stress caused by copper deficiency enhanced [3H]uridine incorporation into microspore cytoplasm RNA and also into the tapetum cells in the case of temporary deficiencies. The incidence of the treatments on the ploidy of the mother cells and on the disturbance of protein metabolism, particularly in tapetum cells, is discussed.

 

[zif]

Apparently I'm on the right track...

Why do you think copper is involved?

I don't see any evidence that it is involved in transcription/meiosis/DNA in general. It looks, instead, quite important for basic metabolic processes. I interpret your paper as evidence that failing cells perform basic functions poorly - including producing viable pollen grains.

Also, depriving a plant of copper and potentially displacing some copper with silver are very different manipulations. There's no reason to expect comparable results - especially when the chemical similarity would allow the substitution, and predict degraded, but not necessarily eliminated, function where it happened.

If you've produced a very intersex-prone seedlot, the simplest explanation is that the parents each contributed one or more alleles that interfere with the action of floral sex hormones. If virtually all of the progeny are monecious, it favors the idea that each parent is/was homozygous for its contribution to the hybrid. That also predicts the problem would breed true.

In practice, the genes involved in determining the sex of flowers appear numerous enough that you may see quantitative inheritance of problematic sexual expression. SamS found that in the Durban, and reduced the percentage over generations through selection.

More complicated, less likely, but still bog-standard genetic conditions could allow your seedlot to produce dramatically different percentages in the F2. Whether you make that bet would depend on what else the plants bring to the table, it seems!

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

Along the same lines as the original question...

Has anyone who's experienced this done a second cross with less silver and properly formed pollen? Was the result the same due to genetics or is pollen damage actually a part of it. None of you who have posted so far have, so I'm really looking for someone new with actual experience to chime in here.

Thanks ever so much.

 

[CreeperStipule]

Along the same lines as the original question...

Has anyone who's experienced this done a second cross with less silver and properly formed pollen? Was the result the same due to genetics or is pollen damage actually a part of it. None of you who have posted so far have, so I'm really looking for someone new with actual experience to chime in here.

Thanks ever so much.

Like begets like -

"So if we had a DNA marker test for intersex, it would not be possible to clean up any intersex in the population? Why not?
Intersex is not caused by using STS, intersex is caused by using intersex parents to make seeds that are intersex, be it with STS or a normal seeds but made with intersexed male and female, both will have a high % of intersex in progeny. Don't use intersex plants to make seeds is the solution, be they male/female seeds or all female seeds.
STS is not the core problem, intersex plants being used to make seeds is the core problem. People have no idea if they are or are not intersex. But they use them anyway.
-SamS"

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

@CreeperStipule Nice find, and thank you so much.

Not having the original cut means no S1's, which means no S2's to search through for extremely stable versions.

Is searching through a hermie madness cross worth it? How valuable would a strain have to be before you would be interested in growing out thousands of hermies?

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

I think the problem lies in not fully stress testing the parent stock the fem seeds are being made with.

This is exactly the case, and why I'm glad I've stressed it as a main point in all my previous feminizing discussions.

These happened to be "strains on hand" and not stress tested enough. When I get the chance (ha ha ha ha ha), I'll grow them out and see if I can find any stable versions of the cross. Tough to sacrifice a plant number for growing these seeds out one at a time in a corner, with the knowledge I'll likely never find a stable version. lol

Surreal