STS Damaged Pollen and Hermie Madness: Has Anyone Taken the NEXT Step?

[Douglas.Curtis]

Hi

The last few years I've been participating in discussions around Silver Thiosulfate. A couple of growers (myself included) have over applied STS to the point we had to crush the pods to release pollen. The seeds created are a hermie madness mess for at least some of us, and I would imagine this has a lot to do with the parent it was crossed to.

The thought occurred to ask the following question:

Has anyone grown out a large number of these harmie madness, and how stable were the stable plants you found amongst them? I'm curious whether this may be a quicker route to finding stable genetics, or just a way to waste time sifting through genetically damaged plants?

Anyone? lol I'm all kinds of curious about the answer to this one.

(Edit: Really looking more for people who have real experience here, since the thread is already full of speculation by those who have none. Thank you so much.)

 

[Creeperpark]

It all starts in the genes.
(KROH-muh-some) A structure found inside the nucleus of a cell. A chromosome is made up of proteins and DNA organized into genes. Each cell normally contains 23 pairs of chromosomes. Google

Chromosomes are thread-like structures located inside the nucleus of plant cells. Each chromosome is made of protein and a single molecule of deoxyribonucleic acid (DNA). Passed from parents to offspring, DNA contains the specific instructions that make each type of living creature unique.

What determines the gender of a plant?
Every egg has an X sex chromosome; a sperm can have either an X or a Y sex chromosome. If the sperm that fertilizes an egg has an X chromosome, the baby is female; if it has a Y chromosome, the baby will be a boy.

Typically, biologically male individuals have one X and one Y chromosome (XY) while those who are biologically female have two X chromosomes. However, there are exceptions to this rule. The sex chromosomes determine the sex of offspring. Google

 

[Creeperpark]

If you pollinate a female with female pollen the chromosomes determine the sex.
Two of the chromosomes (the X and the Y chromosome) determine your sex as male or female when you are born. They are called sex chromosomes: Females have 2 X chromosomes. Males have 1 X and 1 Y chromosome. Google

So you can see why using female pollen will make female plants. In order to reverse female tendencies one needs to use the male Y chromosome quite a few times to stabilize the plant back into to a balance.

 

[goingrey]

Not sure I understand the question.

Are you interested in stress tests of plants grown from fems vs regs?

 

[Creeperpark]

What are the disadvantages of genetically modified seeds?

GM crops disrupt the natural process of gene flow because the “better” traits produced from engineering genes can result in the favoring of one organism. It endangers farmers and trade along with the environment. It is more inclined towards the marketization of farming that works on immoral profits. Google

DC you say that Cannabis hyperemesis syndrome may come from neem molecules. To be honest I think it comes from a modified seed.

What causes CHS
Experts don’t know exactly what causes cannabis hyperemesis syndrome. Some researchers suspect "genetics" may play a role. Others believe CHS may occur due to overstimulation of your endocannabinoid system (ECS). The ECS is a network of receptors in your body that respond to compounds in cannabis.

What’s Cannabinoid Hyperemesis Syndrome (CHS)?

CHS causes cycles of severe nausea and vomiting after long-term marijuana use. You can learn more here.

my.clevelandclinic.org

 

[GMT]

First time hearing about this. My instinct says someone fucked up. Sts shouldn't alter the genetics of the pollen produced. Therefore, if the resulting offspring is Hermie, one or both p plants had that trait to begin with.

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

@Creeperpark CHS is what a very few number of people suffer from as a reaction to THC. Aza causes reactions which are like CHS, but is definitely NOT CHS. You won't find CHS sufferers having bouts of hypothermia in a warm room. (Edit: My theory is *most* of the people diagnosed with CHS by non-specialists are actually suffering from aza poisoning.) FYI, I have used treated and untreated clones of the same plants and I have zero reactions to untreated plants. Problems with aza is not a plant genetic thing, it is an applied poison thing. Thanks though.

I suggest everyone go back and re-read the first post. Although I understand I have clarity issues with my writing, I believe this is much more a reading comprehension problem than anything else.

I postulate pollen produced without ethylene being present at all (meaning none of the pods opened and the only pollen available came from crushing and screening) can cause almost 100% hermie plants from the seeds. Re-read the second paragraph of my OP and think again.

 

[Creeperpark]

I thought you were trying to reverse a hermie into a reg seed. . My Bad.

 

[goingrey]

I suggest everyone go back and re-read the first post. Although I understand I have clarity issues with my writing, I believe this is much more a reading comprehension problem than anything else.

I postulate pollen produced without ethylene being present at all (meaning none of the pods opened and the only pollen available came from crushing and screening) can cause almost 100% hermie plants from the seeds. Re-read the second paragraph of my OP and think again.

Ok that's interesting.

Have you re-done the same cross with the same parents applying less STS?

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

That I have not done, and since then the original parent has been lost.

What kind of damage to genetics is possible during the creation of pollen without copper being present? When the male flowers are not opening there is the chance all copper is being locked out by silver.

One in 5,000 femmed plants can be a weird male. Can one in 5,000 hermie madness plants be super stable?

I'm leaning toward no.

 

[CreeperStipule]

At what generation are the plants at that you attempted to self? or are these reversed out crossings?

 

[CreeperStipule]

First time hearing about this. My instinct says someone fucked up. Sts shouldn't alter the genetics of the pollen produced. Therefore, if the resulting offspring is Hermie, one or both p plants had that trait to begin with.

Dna the same but would it effect Rna?

 

[Douglas.Curtis]

So copper is not present in DNA in any form? I highly doubt it, but not discounting the possibility. Anything formed while missing building blocks will be damaged goods.

Cross in my case was 1st gen femmed pollen from a Canna-Tsu cut about 5 years ago, crossed to OLD genetics from 20 years ago. Definitely not a case of too many fem generations.

 

[GMT]

@CreeperStipule RNA is just a mirror of DNA that gets cut up and floats off to get shit done. The content of the RNA would not change, its ability to get shit done may be affected though.
But providing the foreign stimulus of silver, is no longer present in the seeds' environment, any effects that the silver generated, should not be repeated by the offspring.

My best guess would be the old seeds came from a line that the Hermie genes hadn't been breed out of yet.

 

[CreeperStipule]

@CreeperStipule RNA is just a mirror of DNA that gets cut up and floats off to get shit done. The content of the RNA would not change, its ability to get shit done may be affected though.
But providing the foreign stimulus of silver, is no longer present in the seeds' environment, any effects that the silver generated, should not be repeated by the offspring.

My best guess would be the old seeds came from a line that the Hermie genes hadn't been breed out of yet.

If you look at it from an epigenetic point then Rna can alter the Dna especially in regard to an enviromental response just like with humans ie a famine results in smaller babies so perhaps not altered but expressed completely differently.. turns out there may have been something to Lamarckianism after all.

 

[CreeperStipule]

So copper is not present in DNA in any form? I highly doubt it, but not discounting the possibility. Anything formed while missing building blocks will be damaged goods.

Cross in my case was 1st gen femmed pollen from a Canna-Tsu cut about 5 years ago, crossed to OLD genetics from 20 years ago. Definitely not a case of too many fem generations.

Perhaps just bad recombination? have the plants been crossed to others? if so what were the results? were the parentals selfed?

 

[X15]

So copper is not present in DNA in any form? I highly doubt it, but not discounting the possibility. Anything formed while missing building blocks will be damaged goods.

Cross in my case was 1st gen femmed pollen from a Canna-Tsu cut about 5 years ago, crossed to OLD genetics from 20 years ago. Definitely not a case of too many fem generations.

I think you said it right there… missing the building blocks or the blocks are not developed we will end up with damaged goods.
So will it recover in future generations?
Maybe This is more common than we think it is when speaking of hermie prone plants.
imo there’s a developmental cycle that must operate in a specific order and under healthy conditions, in order to form or create healthy offspring. The mutated offspring would and could correct itself in future cycles but the predicted outcomes would be much harder to anticipate.

nasa-

 

[X15]

Are we looking for a crazy unique outlier or predictable genetics and stability?

 

[GMT]

Larmarck can kiss my ass, Darwin all the way. Yes there are repair cycles, but taking a peak and directing evolution to suit the environment, or better yet, the activities of the parent? Nah man, nah. It's random, it works or it perishes.

There are other things to consider with the famine argument. Perhaps those who required more food to survive perished or faired less well than those smaller individuals. This could hinder the reproduction of larger individuals creating an uneven distribution in the offspring. I can't say either way.

 

[smirnoff420]

Why is sodium thiosulfate needed anyway? I tried it with 0.1g silver nitrate per 0.2L water and it worked. Lots of pollen.

Cannot tell yet how the plants from these seeds turn out however.