STOP USING JAMAICAN BAT GUANO

[DARC MIND]

capt. a handful of fish or fish bone meal wouldnt hurt when putting compost together.
rock dust and plant meals also make both my wormbins and compost rock.
i put more time constructing, turning and curing my compost then i do worrying about what to amend/feed my soil. because my soil pretty much is one big pile of living compost,aerated with wood chips/char and cycling threw multiple bins and containers.

 

[guest2012y]

capt. a handful of fish or fish bone meal wouldnt hurt when putting compost together.
rock dust and plant meals also make both my wormbins and compost rock.
i put more time constructing, turning and curing my compost then i do worrying about what to amend/feed my soil. because my soil pretty much is one big pile of living compost,aerated with wood chips/char and cycling threw multiple bins and containers.

Good idea Darc.......I'm not sure how fast it breaks down,but I know Phos. sticks around longer than N.
My soil mix is fast becoming more like a compost every time I recycle it.
It's pretty clear after using higher portions of compost and topsoil in re-amending that there are less problems with a lot the common issues.

 

[HeD333]

Greensand/kelp meal can supplement some of the things that blood/bone can not.

 

[DARC MIND]

Good idea Darc.......I'm not sure how fast it breaks down,but I know Phos. sticks around longer than N.

u are what u eat,
from my understanding the microbes who break down rock minerals, plant matter, poop (fungi, archaea, protoza, bacteria ect) will store, cycle/poop loop all the plants needs in the living media. we just need to replace what was lost/stored in the plants we grew = designer or well thought out compost, as we go along.
maybe i got this all wrong

 

[guest2012y]

I myself am unsure of the entire process,but I think we have the mutual basic understanding. Here's a dandy little bit about the Phosphorus cycle................


Phosphorus, the other major plant nutrient, does not have a gaseous phase like carbon or nitrogen. As a result it cycles more slowly through the biosphere. Most phosphorus in soils occurs in forms that organisms cannot use directly, such as calcium and iron phosphate. Usable forms (mainly orthophosphate, or PO4) are produced mainly by decomposition of organic material, with a small contribution from weathering of rocks.
The amount of phosphate available to plants depends on soil pH. At low pH, phosphorus binds tightly to clay particles and is transformed into relatively insoluble forms containing iron and aluminum. At high pH, it is lost to other inaccessible forms containing calcium. As a result, the highest concentrations of available phosphate occur at soil pH values between 6 and 7. Thus soil pH is an important factor affecting soil fertility.
Source: © United States Environmental Protection Agency.

 

[DARC MIND]

nice one capt.

Most phosphorus in soils occurs in forms that organisms cannot use directly

i think this is why P and rock minerals and such are highly recommended to add to compost & or worm bins. the phases and diversity of organisms that are cultured in proper managed and well thought out composting obviously can convert P into usable forms or store them with in them selves.

Usable forms (mainly orthophosphate, or PO4) are produced mainly by decomposition of organic material with a small contribution from weathering of rocks

this is why organic soil or perserved ecosystems arnt like most soil (1st quote) in these times. i think organisms in properly managed living or biodiversed soil can use/obtain P pretty well & have been for a minute. think of all the weeds, fruits or beneficial plants that are high in P, we know plants need them microbes/soil organisms to do ther thing
from sfi approach

Typically rock P is turned into an organic form, through the action of bacteria or fungi, and on occasion root acids, and incorporated into the biomass of these organisms. When the bacteria or fungi or plant are eaten, phosphate can be released, and since phosphate is a mineral, that would be mineralization.

benefits of a healthy food web

 

[jaykush]

you guys got it, but also think about the char you added DM, and how its high CEC( along with many other things in your soil) will "hold" nutrients such as P as cations and or anions. waiting for a microbes to use that nutrient to "trade" with the plant. that's not even taking into account the P locked up in the micro organisms themselves. and when they die its released into the system. of course things like this only happen in a healthy fertile soil.

also when you add things like that to your compost, you are selecting microbes that are more efficient at there decomposition and releasing of nutrients.

 

[DARC MIND]

right on
so in simple terms compost, is just packed with goodness

 

[Microbeman]

You guys are so smart.

 

[Microbeman]

Regarding the pH issue mentioned. Given a balanced
(vermi)compost = blanced microbial population = balanced pH.

 

[Sir_Nugget]

this is kinda like the story line to ace ventura 2.. some pompous brit, with a scarf around his neck goes to africa to mine guano from sacred bat caves... but in order to take control of the cave, he has to kill all the native peoples.. to do that, he steals the sacred giant white bat, which sends the tribe on a warpath with the other tribe, who they believe took the bat? Its up to ace to return the bat, stop the fighting, and kick some pompous brit ass ... this is one of the few stories about how encroachment by desperate and weasel-like whites is evil... thumbs up to the story writer

what is it with white ppl wanting to kill everyone?

 

[Bush Dr]

Okay.. I actually stopped buying it two years ago. It was full of sand for the most part but the ecological destruction is an even better reason.
.

Thank you

The 'sand' is powdered coral from the caves, the stuff isn't that good 'cos the farmer I know in JA uses sea bird shit he get's his sons to collect off the rocks ...... I'd imagine fish based crap is a more 'nutritious' crap than fruit bat shit

The guano extraction is just destroying the last bits of the Island not totally fucked

Jamaica is an ecological disaster in action, the (British run) sugar plantations were very profitable, now they lost $13 bn in 2007

The once wide spread and lush rice fields are gone, some to cane, most just golf courses, left to go wild ..... Jamaica used to export rice, now it imports the lot

The 'native' bread is made from cassava, bammy, but everyone eats regular bread so all that grain has to be imported too

Tourists don't like natural veg so all the big resorts, Sandals, Swept Away, Hedo 2, etc and the cruise ships get veg specially grown for them hydroponically and it's tasteless pap ..... however this drives up the price of what is grown for local consumption ..... corn cobs are from the USA (wtf???) and are cattle feed quality but cost $1US/cob

Negril used to be a sea turtle nesting area, now when it rains the water along the 7 mile Beach turns brown, the tourists are told it's just river mud ..... which is partly true, most of it tho' is the sewage pumped out during the rain ...

During the downturn in the US economy, Jamaica had to pay the US to keep taking any bauxite

On the plus side a pound of high grade can be had for $100 ..... which you can make in 10 minutes selling a pocket full of ditch weed to the tourists

BD

 

[guest2012y]

Regarding the pH issue mentioned. Given a balanced
(vermi)compost = blanced microbial population = balanced pH.

This is where I let them take care of it for me and refrain from the common cannabis growing belief that I must ph this or ph that. Supply the correct balance of amendments (including compost) and let the soil and it's life forms take care of the rest.

Did Grandma use Earth Juice ph up/down in her tomato garden...............

 

[Tactical Farmer]

possibly fish and fish bone meal and or plant meals, maybe sprinkle a little rock dust as well?

Farm manures like cow, chicken, goat, horse, etc are available in large amounts for little to no cost.

Just have to locate, load, transport it.

Also growing or finding crops like alfalfa, buckwheat, clovers, etc will help in positive changes.

 

[DocLeaf]

Will you ALL please stop using bat guano from Jamaica, the mining operations have destroyed many of the sea caves and all the money goes straight to some corrupt official somewhere

If you could only see what is being done so you can have "just a lickle bag" of guano you'd stop today

There are plenty of organic sources other than bat guano, please don't screw up another part of the world to satisfy a personal whim

There's plenty of people here who want to be a Rasta or associated with Bob Marley .... those are the people who would most ask you to stop

Interesting post

We have voiced the issue of the environmental impact that growers using guano generate before now... and so it's good to see others getting behind this emotive subject

Few questions...

-Please can you give an example of the areas within Jamaica that are being exploited?

-Is there evidence to suggest that the guano in these areas is being heavily harvested wholesale , rather than lightly harvested via layering systems, which is common practise and does not totally destroy the ecosystem and the bats habitat.

- How has it destroyed the sea caves?

- Who owns the caves in question? Why aren't they National Heritage sites or places of specific scientific observation?

- Please can you name some brands of Jamaican guano or guano that sources guano from Jamaican origin?

Then we can investigate this further...

Let's remember than the mindful harvesting of guano (digging and barrowing) is often conducted by local ppl; which directly provides local communities with seasonal employment.

Thanks for refreshing this subject!

Peace out
DocLeaf


P.S. We have relatives of friends pon island that grow our seeds out over there... so we'll ask them for a low-down on what go-on with the caves in their region next time we catch up with them

Note: we dont see that the moral-ethic of using guano has anything to do with 'Rastas' or 'Bob Marley' ,, at least we never knew that it was a prerequisite

 

[DocLeaf]

What do you recommend for organic alternatives?

We found that a brewed/fermented mix of wood ash, worm casts, human urine, and sugar,, produces equal results to the weaker brands of guano available on the market.

The stronger brands of bat guano have a certain edge over the above mix. I believe this is because the better grade bat guano is usually fossilized and not fresh. The exception to this is sea-bird guano which is normally only a few years old when collected... and normally really strong.

Hope this helps

 

[DARC MIND]

Farm manures like cow, chicken, goat, horse, etc are available in large amounts for little to no cost.

Just have to locate, load, transport it.

Also growing or finding crops like alfalfa, buckwheat, clovers, etc will help in positive changes.

IMO being organic is simply being a conscious human being or at least grower. similar to trying to continue and better ourselves as we should, specially when it comes to something were passion about.So when sourcing around for goods, it is in our best interest to know where a company gets their raw materials, processing methods or in this case diet and standards/conditions of animals lively hood because price, the word organic & fancy labels are not the most important factor when deciding on a product.IMO if buying compost or manure really dig deep and ask for as much info before buying bulk, thers some really really good material out ther but i and (i think?) others find most can do more harm then good.
The fact that livestock is a major problem when dealing with deforestation , land degradation, climate change, air pollution, water shortage, water pollution, oh and lets not forget loss of biodiversity; doesnt really seem (to me) as a better alternative to guano unless ther, lets say different then the rest.
why i think guano is such a great organic poop, is because of the biodiversity and complex digestive systems this stuff went threw. some come from caves, witch are not only made of mineral rich rock but covered with all kinds of other biology (snakes,roaches,scorpions,maggots,ants, plenty of creepy crawlies and trillions of ca zillions of microbes) witch all ferment and decompose, off of bat or seabird pooh,incest/animal/amphibian carcases ect (talk about poop loop)which main ingredients (guano) diet/consist of a mixture of either or diverse fruit, fish, beatles, wild flowers, and even pollen from even more rich and diverse ecosystems (rain forest,jungles, beaches,amazons,wet lands, ect) witch source a whole other diversity of life and energy (nutrient/mineral) forms.
i really think compost is the only product that can compete with this sh$%t, fish and fish bone meal cost less and have just as high nutrient value, meals and rock dust will do wonders but all kind of lack that linked diverse process guano has... put all them in a well thought out compost and ur gold.

 

[guest2012y]

The ecological consequences of using products that aren't harvested in a sustainable matter has always been in the back of my mind. I'm just like everyone else that drives,uses electricity,etc.,but I try,and want to be more Earth friendly when consuming. It's a lifestyle choice,how much are we willing to change our lifestyle to accommodate our environment in decline.
This is a topic that can,and has been kicked around here off and on for as long as I've been a member on IC

I liked Bat guano for the same reasons Darc stated...plus all those insects that certain types eat each have unique chemical compounds that add an even more to the diversity of the poop.
There are responsible harvest practicing companies out there..it's also a matter of personal economics/availability as well.
I'm phasing out the Phos guano and going with the fish bone meal...then again,here we are in another sustainability issue. They aren't going to stop fishing (over fishing) anytime soon,but at least the by-product that would otherwise be wasted is being utilized by agriculture.

 

[professordank]

This whole thing is really depressing...I love high P guano.

 

[Tactical Farmer]

Your right - Forgot to add to ask the farmers about the animals diet, especially if its around a city were there methods might be un-natural.

The really fresh poo might be loaded with piss also.

Out here in Amish country its manure heavin, the crap is ideal.

Big old outdoor piles - already composted - full of worms.

Cool pic dank - you make your own guano ?