Some questions about soil building...

[NamelessCitizen]

For my next run, I'm going to be building my soil. In preparation for planting, I'll be mixing Black Gold Garden Compost, ewc, POM Tomato & Vegetable 7-4-5 (veg), perlite and dolomite lime as needed, mixed and stored in a Rubbermaid container. I've read that you must moisten your mix and let it sit for a few weeks, like composting.

1. How moist and for how long/how often?
2. Plain water or nutrient solution?
3. Covered or left open?
4. Should the mix be turned/mixed at all or left alone?

Any advice would be appreciated.

Nameless

 

[JackTheGrower]

As I understand it the idea of letting sit after we moisten our soil mixes is to allow for chemical reactions.

several weeks seems a long time... One maybe...

When I make a new soil I compost it. so that takes a few weeks.

Are you interested in that?

 

[NamelessCitizen]

Jack - yes! I've always planted straight into Fox Farms soils but now I want to build my own mix and prepare it properly before planting any seeds. I'm taking the time to learn about composting now and should be ready to start my own indoors upon harvest of my upcoming grow (re-using my mix). In the meantime I'm starting things off by using Black Gold Garden Compost as a base for my mix.

I thought I would mix my ingredients, moisten the mix (to "activate" the goodies in the mix) and let it go for no longer than a week prior to planting seeds.

Am I over-complicating things? I just want to make sure I make the most of the benefits hidden in my mix, to make them readily available for uptake, at the right times throughout the life of the plant.

Maybe moistening with an ewc and molasses tea will be enough get things going without the need to let the mix sit for any length of time?

I seriously need some help...

 

[NamelessCitizen]

Could someone help me with ingredient ratios?
How many parts Garden Compost, worm castings, perlite should I use?

How about 3 parts compost to 1 part castings to 1 part perlite? I don't want to overdo it with the castings because I'll be making teas with them as well.

I'll be adding POM 7-4-5 (mychorrizae, humic acid) and dolomite lime @ 1-2 tsps per gallon of veg mix. POM Fruit & Flower 5-8-4 (mychorrizae, humic acid) used in flower mix.

Seedling tea - ewc, molasses
Veg & flowering teas from Mother Mary's Tea Recipes for bacterial and fungal teas.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated

Nameless

 

[Johnny Rotten]

Looks good but i'd add more perlite in as 1/3 of the mix.

 

[emmy75]

hey Nameless

ive been cooking my soil now for almost two weeks. im gonna let it go one more week and then do a transplant. first, as i have been told, the longer u let it cook the better it will be. gives all the elements time to break down so that the plant can use it immediately. generally u want to cook for at least 2 weeks to a month. that is the consensus i do believe.

i used about 5 gallons of peat sphagnum. u can go crazy with the wc cause u cant burn a plant with those. since i measure mine by cups for every 16 cups of peat (1 gallon) i put in like 6-8 cups of wc. then i added about 1 tsp of neptunes seaweed per gallon. for nitrogen i put in about 1/3 tsp of bat guano per gallon. that may seem like too little but my aww x ssh are very light feeders. they may need more but i can always supplement with teas and foliar feedings. its always better to use less with stuff that can burn than too much. u can always add but not take away. i also added 2 tbsp of dolomite lime per gallon for ph.

i turn my soil everyday. i should have added perlite to my soil but ive been lazy about that. that helps aearate the soil. i guess u can turn your soil every 3-4 days or so but i do turn mine everyday. never let your soil dry out. but of course u dont want it sopping wet either. i turn my soil with my bare hands. i grab a handful of the soil and squeeze it into a ball and can hear the moisture. that i think is what im lookin for. however not a drop of water is squeezed out so i know its not too wet. to keep it moist i add to my water molasses. i need to add some Liquid karma once in a while but i need to get more info from suby about that.

i keep a lid on my bin about 75 percent covered. there needs to be some air that gets to the soil.

i dont think i left out but ill add again if i did. i think this will help. this is my first attempt and building my own soil. of course this will be for veg. on monday im gonna make my soil for flower.

good luck and i hope this helps ya.

 

[NamelessCitizen]

Looks good but i'd add more perlite in as 1/3 of the mix.

Thanks Johnny. I add as much perlite as "feels" right. I'm going to try this for a veg mix which constitutes 1 gallon:
2 parts BG Garden Compost
1 part EWC
2 tbsp POM Tomato & Veg 7-4-5 per gallon (mychorrizae, humic acid, calcium)
2 tbsp Alfalfa meal
1 tsp Dolomite Lime per gallon

1 part perlite to 2 parts mix

Flowering mix will replace POM 7-4-5 with POM Fruit & Flower 4-8-5
and leave out the alfalfa meal.

How's that look?

 

[MissesMTL]

The organics forum is a little quiet. I want results too, but at what cost? I just wanted to say thanks for the recipe and tips, Jack and Nameless. We here appreciate your efforts. We eat all local / organic anymore, why not smoke organic ??

 

[HeadyPete]

Hi everybody,

I have been growing in an organic coco mix of my own design and so far I like the results.

Emmy I concur with your post totally. Very good info.

Peat is very acidic, plus the environmental damage from harvesting, and it is not a renewable resource are all reasons I switched to coco coir.

Other advantages are coir is a renewable; it is a waste product of coconut processing, it's ph is much closer to ideal ph so you use less ph up or down, and the best of all....a 5kg brick will expand to fill an 80 liter storage bin, the same as a good sized bag of promix. It is a lot more stealth to bring home a brick or two in a bag from the garden shop then buying bags of promix at the local hardware store.

Coir has excellent drainage and retention properties; this is a reason why you can use less ferts....the coir holds onto the fert longer and better than other media like peat. You also flush less out when you water. I am finding that my standard fert regime has been on the hot side and I have dialed back a little and getting better results. Next round should be even better. Less is more, and saves money too. I never understand why peeps wanna use 42 products, so that their crop is more expensive than the dealer's? I want to use the least to get the most.

On that note, my mix cooking now has no perlite. Buying big bags of perlite is also a heatscore. I want to see how this soil does without perlite.

My original mix was

1 5kg brick coco
20 L worm casings
10 L perlite
250 mg dolomite lime
a good handful of dried kelp
2.5 L BioBizz PreMix dry fert

Also BioBizz Grow, Bloom TopMax, Grotek CalMax, ph down.

I omitted the perlite as mentioned above and the lime, as I find it raises the ph of the soil too high, requiring a lot of ph down to correct. Lime is good to counter the acidity of peat, but too much for coco. I use Cal Max to feed extra cal, mag and iron.

I have tried different ph downs; phosphoric acid - strong and feeds phosphorus, but not organic; Advanced Nutrients F1 honey (fulvic acid)......weak acid, expensive, requires a lot to correct ph; and finally Grotek LXR Gold (fulvic acid) and this is the best so far. Much more concentrated and acidic than the AN, organic and $7 a liter cheaper than AN. Fulvic acid has many benefits beyond just lowering ph, it contains auxins, hormones and natural chealators that allow the plant to use the ferts much more efficiently, thereby requiring less.

I am hoping that omitting the lime will bring my natural soil ph closer to optimum and I can use even less ph down. The ferts are somewhat acidic, especially the Bloom.

There are many ways to achieve the same results and organics is more forgiving than chems.

I'm happy to chat more about this and liven up the party, so to speak.

take care.

 

[LavenderCowboy]

I got lost in all the information....Guess I been gone to long...lol....What is POM????....Unless you're going to aerate the mix several times a day, I would suggest putting your mix in a gunny sack so it can breathe....Organics w/o oxygen is a dead Microherd....Too many times I've read about the dusty white stuff growing on the top of the potting mixl.....You didn't give any info on the plants you will be growing....When making a mix it depends on whether you're growing from seeds/clones, etc.....
1: If not useing medium-longterm ferts, you don't have to let it sit unless you want to....
2: plain
3:left open
4:turn severl times a day......LC

 

[HeadyPete]

Hi Lav, yes there is a lot of info and it is easier for me to conceptualize in my head, because of my long experience with organic gardening, than put down here in type. Eventually we can get our heads around it.

Oxygen is key to the compost process, it feeds and allows the anaerobic (oxygen loving) bacteria to break down the organic matter. Heat is also an important ingredient and the more oxygen mixed in, the more heat generated. The more you turn your mix, the better and faster it will break down.

If you use dolomite lime, it is very slow acting, so the longer the mix cooks the better.

Very true that you can tailor your mix to the specific strain and growing phase, but I am nowhere near that level of skill and knowledge (yet )

The one most people make a mistake with is seedling mix. Seed mix should have no ferts in it, or a mild slow release (dry) fert added in the soil, 1/4 strength. My above mentioned soil had the BioBizz PreMix dry in it, and I popped 9/10 Mountain Jam seeds in it. My problem was I waited till the generally agreed 2 weeks before feeding, but ended up with N def yellowed leaves because I waited too long. Organics have a delay factor in that they take a week or more to break down after application to be available to the plants. Also, coco has a bit of a buffer effect wherein it holds the first bit of ferts and water you apply and will not allow the plants access, so you need to fill that buffer, then feed again for the plants. That buffer effect will slow release moisture and ferts to the plants, which is why you use less ferts with coco. I should have started liquid feeding 1 week in. They are all fine now, growing green and strong. I think the 1st 3 plants that made the transplant are males, they seem to be showing little balls, so they are on notice....

Right now I am finding the standard BioBizz feeding schedule too strong for my plants (LUI, OB1, MountainJam), even under 600 watts. My temps are on the higher side, so that too requires less feeding, plus the cocosoil. I'm loving that I can still use less product, cleaner bud and heavier wallet!

Till next time...

 

[vonforne]

Soil building......my favorite subject. It looks like you have a good solid foundation for your start. Keep it basic at first and then take small steps to improve on what you have already perfected. It does take time. I like to add things in single amounts in case there are any problems. That way it will be easy to identify.

I seen that someone had mentioned coco. On my last grow I used it as part of my mix. The results were very profound. Remember to use a good quality coco fiber if you choice to use it.

I like to wet my standing (cooking) soil with different tea mixes. You are not only wetting the soil but adding micro-organisms to the soil substrate. And by adding to the micro-organism population, you are helping keep the soil healthy. I prefer to use a worm castings tea with molasses and sometimes yucca extract.



V

 

[jaykush]

Oxygen is key to the compost process, it feeds and allows the anaerobic (oxygen loving) bacteria to break down the organic matter. Heat is also an important ingredient and the more oxygen mixed in, the more heat generated. The more you turn your mix, the better and faster it will break down.

might want to check your post, anaerobic micro organisms are microbes that live without oxygen. you mean aerobic composting which need oxygen to live and break down material. and actually anaerobic compost can be quite good if done right, it just takes a few years.

 

[LavenderCowboy]

True words, JayKush....But one thing I would like to say is "heat" is good in Hot Composting....We're talking "grow medium", not hot composting....In a grow medium, you don't want the peat and coco fibers breaking down and making compost....They'll do that soon enough if kept in the potting mix through flowering...The purpose of letting the mix sit for a week to two weeks is to give the ferts time to be broken down by the bacteria....Then, and only then, you either transplant or put rooted clones in the mix....Something that will immediately feed after transplant shock...So, we have to decide whether we're gonna be composting or growing plants....See what I mean.....LC

 

[HeadyPete]

might want to check your post, anaerobic micro organisms are microbes that live without oxygen. you mean aerobic composting which need oxygen to live and break down material. and actually anaerobic compost can be quite good if done right, it just takes a few years.

Oops yes you are right on both accounts, my mistake.

 

[Guest]

did you guys ever think of clay replacing perlit?

 

[judas cohen]

Thanks Johnny. I add as much perlite as "feels" right. I'm going to try this for a veg mix which constitutes 1 gallon:
2 parts BG Garden Compost
1 part EWC
2 tbsp POM Tomato & Veg 7-4-5 per gallon (mychorrizae, humic acid, calcium)
2 tbsp Alfalfa meal
1 tsp Dolomite Lime per gallon

1 part perlite to 2 parts mix

Flowering mix will replace POM 7-4-5 with POM Fruit & Flower 4-8-5
and leave out the alfalfa meal.

How's that look?

That oughtta' be Peachy Keen Perfect, IMO. Great mixes, and will probably do fine with plain water, for the most part. (Some strains might require feeding.) An occasional tea of EWC/molasses would be nice.....

LC: POM is FoxFarm Peace Of Mind dry organic fertilizers. Well balanced, combo fast release/long term available, mostly water soluble if used for tea, or top feed, but usually mixed into soil prior to planting. Pretty much has everything MJ needs, in correct ratios and pH.

Example: POM 5-5-5 All Purpose Fertilizer contains feather meal, bone meal, hydrolized fish, fish meal, fish bone meal, alfalfa meal, sul-po-mag, blood meal, bat guano, soft rock phosphate, kelp meal, gypsum, and a dozen different mykes fungi & 6 species of beneficial bacteria. Ca 8%; Mg 1.25%, humic acid 1.5%. Use 1-2 TBL/gal soil.

A box of POM is much easier and cheaper than buying all the ingredients and trying to compute correct ratios to mix, IMO. (They make 8 different blends and ratios.) Shelf life (because of mykes/BB) is 2 years and date of mfg is stamped on top of box. I think it's great for newbs and lazy experienced growers.

Just trying to give you info on the product (from the box label) as website doesn't say much beyond advertising hype.

 

[Linenoise]

Just curious, but is it possible to let your soil mix sit too long?
The last batch of soil I mixed ended up having about a 2 cubic feet left over (which is alot for my usage). Thus far I've just left it in a Rubber Maid bin and mixed it every so often. Been in the bin for a good 6 weeks now and I do not plan on needing any more soil until after New Years.

What would be the proper way to store the extra soil, until I want to use it a couple months from now?

 

[bakelite]

Excellent soil thread! Building soil is an interesting topic and aside from the fundamentals is subject to personal preference. One thing most agree on is letting their mix "cook" for a bit before using.

I, like vonforne just started using some coir in my mix as I like the texture and consistency (feel) that it gives. I'm using about 20% of my total mixture right now. I read a study done a university that concluded using straight coir was inferior to peat, but I believed the study could have been better designed (they didn't compensate for the minerals that were added to the peat for neutralization etc.) I've used straight coir before but I didn't like how it behaved (water retention, wetting etc.).

Peaceful Mind, you mentioned using clay instead of perlite, did you mean clay pellets as in hydroton etc.? I've toyed with the idea of adding a little powdered clay (say 1-5%max) to see if it had any effect on growth etc. It is supposed to have really good CEC (cation exchange capacity, helps plants take up nutrients) as well as improve water retention.

Anyway there is tons of good info here! Keep this thread alive!

-bakelite

 

[Guest]

bakelite, natural organic clay (powder and chunks). as you said, it helps for water absorption, retention and aeration.