Soil, water, and tea questions

[slownickel]

Well, in the absence of any feed-back re. top-dressing with fairly minor amounts of gypsum and langbeinite with 3-1/2 weeks or so left until harvest, I took to the internet ... again....while drinking a beer and tending a smoker with a bacon-wrapped pork shoulder roast seasoned with minor amounts of thyme, garlic, white pepper, and a drizzle of honey, before adding the double layer of bacon to the top of the roast, pinned with wooden tooth-picks.. Made more necessary by the meat dept that took nearly 100% of the fat cap off the roast.. Ignorant bastards!!!

Anyway, it was in the midst of that, following the 9% abv brown ale that I said, "screw it" and mixed up a test batch of 2:1 gypsum and langbeinite.

If a guy's gonna' mess his plants up, he may as well be eating and drinking well, right??

Anyway, and being a bit more serious, I used 3/4 tsp of the mix to top-dress the WB, meaning about 1/4 tsp of langbeinite, and 1/2 tsp of gypsum. I believe when applying experimental approaches, especially better than half-way through flowering, it's best to tread lightly.. Though this application may be light enough to make very little difference.. we'll see.

I applied perhaps a quarter of that amount to a couple of mothers in much smaller pots last evening, and perhaps it's mere subjective perception, but I believe the H2O processing, (and therefore feeding/fert absorption) would appear to have stepped it up a notch or three; the one that was watered with the minor top-dressing (WB) is darned hear dry today...

I may be onto something.. or maybe -on- something.. but thus far, I haven't killed anything, so it's a decent day.

SLH's buds are improving in size ever so slowly, and still pungent and crystalline. WB is being her fussy self, putting out nicely elongated pistils, perhaps 5% of which show abnormal pre-mature darkening, thus the reason for choosing her as the initial guinea pig in this top-dressing experiment among the three varieties...

GTH#1 is still increasing in size, trichs improving daily, and the pungent nature is waxing and waning with the light and watering cycle.

Aside from those mysteries and experiments, it occurred to me the other day that it's been since last October or November that I last changed my Merv 8 pre-filter and carbon panels in the filter box, yet the area near the grow smells clean, despite the plants having a nice odiferousness to them when sniffind in the room itself.

Mysteries and questions abound.

I guess I'll check the smoker's wood supply, have a puff or two of GTH#1, and take a nap.

Any objections?

I didn't think so....

Moose,

If you saw a Mg deficiency, chances are you are missing phosphorus. Or you already have too much potassium.

 

[DocTim420]

Oh yeah, forgot an important topdressing observation:

1. I mix a few cups of "charged" grow medium with about 1/4-1/3 cup of "topdressing" before scratching it in to the "soil surface".
2. Then I saturate the "soil surface" with twice the normal amount of fluids (32 oz of normal becomes 64 oz)...and then a few days later I will empty anything remaining in the saucers.

Grinding your topdressing to powder also helps reduce the "breakdown" time, and "over saturating" it insures everything is "activated". Dry topdressing does not do a damn thing. Like I alluded to earlier--ask 10 container gardeners, "how do you topdress?" and you will probably get 10 different answers.

 

[moose eater]

Thanks to all for the input.

I miss the days when the plants simply did as I told them to do, and we all got along better for it.. Maybe more totalitarian horticulture is in order here.

The only gypsum available when I picked it up (something I previously hadn't bothered with) was both prilled, and labeled as 'fast acting.' Two concepts that I typically regard as not belonging in the same sentence, tho' I suspect what process and material was used in the 'prilling' would affect rates of release, too).

h.h., I went to the link for the liquid-soluble plant food from soybean meal and bacterial fermentation, and had to read it twice... maybe 3 times. I'm still finishing my first cup of joe, after eating a whole canna brownie to get to sleep last night.

When I wade slowly into new concepts/ideas, there are times I need to read it several times, and/or have someone explain it in simple detail; different learning styles, I guess.

Sometimes I think I might've once been from Missouri in a previous life; the whole 'show me' state thing. Hands-on learning is one of the better approaches for getting past the concrete and concertina wire that surrounds my head..

SlowNickel, thank you for the observation.

Like I wrote before, we're frequently accepting or assuming that organic and other amendments possess the values they state they do, but the human and pet food markets exemplify how difficult it can be at times to keep products above-board in their claims, let alone garden amendments. Just my bias based in observing the behavior of teas in the past, and the changes over time.

Based on the amount and #s of the P sources, I would've thought the P supply was more or less sufficient at the outset for a moderate continuous supply, and the K used as being adequate, though I was admittedly concerned about over-doing the micro-nutes in the kelp (which I 'believe' I've seen bring instability re. stress flowers), as well as similar observations with the langbeinite, which is why I pulled back substantially on this last soil mix where the langbeinite was concerned. (*Found others sharing such observations re. excess langbeinite, though found some using it as a tea quite successfully.. even at a rate of 1 TBSP per gal/H2O).

The GTH#1, which originally had the most stout reaction to N levels, turning dark green and stretching early on, while not maintaining the strength in stems I would've liked, has moderated the best, shows the least 'fading' any where on the plant, and is producing the greater blooms at the moment. Almost as though, despite relatively high levels of dolomite to buffer, etc., She has less resistance to simply drinking up what ever N is there, whether She needs it or not. I think where N is concerned, she's a lush, with poor self-regulation, but GOD she's so good... Running at least neck and neck with Bodhi's Goji OG, which I find to be far more stable as a plant, in terms of stem structure, structure and size of blooms, etc. Both are packed with trichs and possess their own unique and noteworthy scent. The GTH#1 is probably somewhat higher in THC, and the Goji has a more thorough body effect.

The K was via naturally lower levels (2) via kelp, a very minor amount of langbeinte, the initial (and probably exhausted by now) contents of K in the FFOF, and the bit of wood ash (a 7-9 value in K by my understanding, plus micro-nutes), which as a soluble/mobile source of K, I would've thought had dissipated by now as well.

There'd also been some -minor- additions of Meta-K and Thrive Alive B-1, as well as minor amounts of a thinned molasses product labeled as 'Brix.' I'd have to go re-read the label, but put out by a major producer for hydro and soil additives; again, all they had when I'd sought molasses products, other than for the organic, made-for-humans stuff at the health food store, and the Brix is easier to draw into a large-barreled syringe for measurement, though still a mess to contend with..

(*Since then, in anticipation of doing a run of Goji OG with Dank Frank's water-only soil mix, I acquired a jug of dry molasses that looks to be tiny pelletized or granular molasses; again, things I've never used before... molasses.. Typically appeared in those recipes I was trying to copy a brown sugar effect in baking or cooking without using actual ultra-processed sugars)...

I can try some limited addition of Budswel (yellow) extract liquid at 10 ml to a gallon of H2O (or a relatively fresh High P bat guano tea with minor EWCs added), skip any Meta-K or similar, and see what sort of contentment or indigestion evolves.

A friend who has, for years, used a particular store-bought soil (Miracle-Gro!!) and adds limited organics to it, has for years commented on the N fading in the finish of my plants, stating his plants are carried through the end by his mix, not fading as many organic growers experience. How much of the 'fade', especially in organics is the result of spent N and mag def, versus lock-out from accumulation of K or P... well, absent a mass spectrometer in my basement.... who knows?? But I strongly suspect both are very real, depending on the garden, and either one could have me/folks treating disorders that maybe don't exist as much as they seem to.

I hate relearning stuff that initially was a non-issue, and now is a real issue... or so it seems. If there is a conscious entity in the Cosmos, maybe the whole 'beginners' luck' thing is the Universe taking pity on us when we're newbs? And as the process goes on, we're faced with greater questions or challenges? Or maybe the more we think we know, the more we over-think things and try to reach perfection, when 'good enough' was good enough..?

At this point, I need to take time to observe reactions to my efforts, abstain from concluding things too quickly or prematurely, and become more paced and thorough in my analysis.

And h.h., any simple, made-for-dense-old-guys explanations of the fermented soluble fert you posted would be very cool.

A Buddhist woman I dated in grad school left me a hand-written rendition of a story exemplifying my way of being and history once. It was from Lao Tsu, and was about a boy who seemingly could not learn. His teacher tried and tried, even just to teach the boy to draw the numeral 1, and the boy could not do it. Eventually the teacher had meetings with the boy's parents, and the boy's parents, in embarrassment, frustration, and discipline, banished the boy from the village into the mountains. The boy stayed in the mountains for a long time, trying to learn. One day the boy came back into the village, walked to the great Wall, drew the numeral 1, and the wall fell in two parts.

That was how some concepts were for me growing up, and not just school work. Grasping the concept was difficult sometimes, then when the proverbial light would go on, it was like everything aligned, made perfect sense, and was so simple it was humorous. I'm struggling with the fog of new ideas and concepts right now, sometimes tempted to go back, but not sure 'back' provides what it once did, either.

Bear with me.

And Doc, I'll try to adjust/moderate the initial H2O amounts used in hydrating the dry mixes, as well as breaking necessary volumes into 2 parts or two batches.

I also need to re-read the porosity measurement stuff you linked to. Went there earlier, and like the fermented fert recipe, I need to go back and re-read it... probably several times over.

 

[h.h.]

I can't say much about the natto. Doc's use of the soybean meal prompted a Google search and that's where I wound up.

It sounds like a specialized strain of lactobacillus used for fermenting soybeans.

Microbial fermentation using bacteria or fungi has the capability to improve nutritional value of SBM by altering the native composition. Both submerged and solid state fermentation processes can be used for this purpose. Bacterial and fungal fermentations result in degradation of various anti-nutritional factors, an increase in amount of small-sized peptides and improved content of both essential and non-essential amino acids.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5088370/

While this link has to do with nutrition, the link posted in my last post has a wee bit of information on use as fertilizer.

Found the soybean meal on Amazon and the natto on Ebay. See if I can kill anything.

 

[moose eater]

Thanks h.h.

I'm going to have to simply sit and let things settle in my head, and try to think my way through the approaches I may take here.

As far as new soil mixes go, the only immediate effort is toward some moms who are starting to insist that I give them something to refresh their circumstances.

Again feeling like a kid in Willy Wonka's candy shop, with all of .25 cents in my pocket, and how to use the best of all approaches, merging them into one complimentary effort in such a way they don't cause problems for each other..

I tried yelling at the WB and SLH this morning, telling them to behave, and improve their attitudes or face the sheers, and they just smirked at me..

I don't think they're taking me seriously any more..

 

[h.h.]

Take the approach you always take. Make very few changes, take note, then move on to the next. If you have the space, keep a sacrificial victim to pick on.

 

[moose eater]

Thanks again.

I'd earlier threatened to decapitate my Barney's LSD mother in order to make room for some seeds I need to 'open up to see what's inside.' But hadn't been able to make myself do it.. When she's stressed, despite less olfactory and flavor satisfaction (low and mild level of flavor and smell in both counts), she's still a pretty good stone... And I have 2 varieties of the Goji OG, with a preference for 1 of them over the other, but they're both really nice.

I need to increase my ability to house more mothers by adding another cupboard, but that'll be another project for some energized winter day this season.

We had a mild earthquake yesterday evening, and have a rip-roarin' winter storm reportedly coming across the Chukchi Sea at the moment, from Siberia, slated to bring higher winds, and anywhere from 10" to 16" of snow with it.

At current temps, the snow shouldn't be too damp, thus may not stick to the trees so badly, hopefully avoiding the downed trees and lost power that sometimes comes with such events.

All of that said, it is shaping up to be a period of time suited to staying indoors and mixing amendments.

I think in the merging of old and new, I'm going to whip up a veg formula, aiming for a ratio of (in TBSP/~gal soil) 1-1/2N, to 2 P, to 1 or <1 K, utilizing Oyster shell flour and gypsum to replace some of the dolomite, even increasing the Cal a bit, while decreasing the dolomite (thus slightly decreasing the mag) to no more than 1 TBSP per gallon of soil, and splitting the desired N components into EWCs (at slightly lesser presence than previous), and equal parts of Blood Meal and High N bat guano.

As outlined in some of the posts in SlowNickel's thread, I can slowly ramp up the K after things are getting better situated, though I suspect this is something I'll pay special attention to with the newer cuttings coming in the near future.

There's my immediate starting point, keeping in mind my general levels as defined, and trying to be somewhat conservative in the measurement of such things. I don't think there's any really harsh changes therein.

On those occasions that I think I've gone too stout in re. to amendments, my quick fix has been to add a few add'l parts of Pro Mix to dilute the concentration a bit. And with the changes in sourcing of Cal in the above mix, ph is apt to be lower than previous runs, too.

Whether growing plants, or losing weight rapidly, it's all like a combination lock of sorts; hitting the right numbers just -so-, to the degree that everything works together as successfully as it can.

So what the hell, right? Here goes....... after a good stout beer and a preparatory puff or two... Protocol, protocol, protocol!!

 

[h.h.]

Boil down some ash water to about 50%. Or you could boil it all the way down and let the potassium crystallize. Or just use the water, or the ashes.

http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-Potash/

 

[moose eater]

Boil down some ash water to about 50%. Or you could boil it all the way down and let the potassium crystallize. Or just use the water, or the ashes.

https://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-make-Potash/

Yeah, I usually use just the clean ashes, though as stated much earlier in this thread, I've cut back on amount; caustic, alkaline, and bigger K numbers, but used sparingly, I still use 'em.

Probably need to harvest some more wood ash from the bon fire pit soon, if the snow stops, and gives the coals time to go out, so I can shake them through the hardware cloth sieve we made for them.

Thanks for the link.

I suspect that in subsequent mixes, the ideas given throughout this thread and elsewhere will find use in experimental efforts.

Thanks again!

 

[h.h.]

I was looking for another link describing the making of potash. I couldn't find it, so I'll wing it.
As the ash water evaporates, the different salts will dissipate out more or less in an established order with potassium carbonate being the last salt in that order. I think sodium is high in the order and is one of the first salts to dissipate out.

If you want to further refine it, let it crystallize, redissolve it in a minimum amount of cold water. The potassium carbonate will be the first salt to dissolve.
I'm lazy. I just use the water.
I never checked the pH, so I can't say what it is..
You get the benefits of the ash without adding mass and muck to your mix, while eliminating undesirable salts. It's also more controllable.

 

[moose eater]

I was looking for another link describing the making of potash. I couldn't find it, so I'll wing it.
As the ash water evaporates, the different salts will dissipate out more or less in an established order with potassium carbonate being the last salt in that order. I think sodium is high in the order and is one of the first salts to dissipate out.

If you want to further refine it, let it crystallize, redissolve it in a minimum amount of cold water. The potassium carbonate will be the first salt to dissolve.
I'm lazy. I just use the water.
I never checked the pH, so I can't say what it is..
You get the benefits of the ash without adding mass and muck to your mix, while eliminating undesirable salts. It's also more controllable.

Thanks again, h.h.!!

I agree the reduction in salt and the lessening of non-breathing muck would be good.

I suspect I could motivate myself for further endeavors based on those gains.

We've just always used wood ash, in the veggies in raised beds, sometimes the potato field, and especially in container plants, to include cannabis, while knowing that the K levels are typically fairly stout (depending on type of wood burned).

Looking out across the landscape here, out in the bush, after a fire, you can see the advantages of the ash; its K and micro-nutes. The places that are often acidic & support just the base-line of flora, just flourish and green out.

The run-off trench and surrounding area below my bon fire pit sports all kinds of happy weeds and brush!!

 

[moose eater]

Just finished researching and ordering 'Bokashi Bran with EM-1.'

Comes complete with bio-char, etc.

A search and acquisition resulting from the collecting of others' organic bloom (and other) soil formulas.

And as a side benefit, I believe I've finally found something the entire household can eat; plants, people, and dogs alike... Just kidding.. I think...

Much cheaper to make the stuff, it seems, and probably better for being fresh, in that regard, but the quantities involved would leave me with a lifetime supply from very little EM-1 and molasses, so for now, I'll do a trial run with the lesser amount I ordered, and see if it's worth making more in the future..

 

[h.h.]

Just finished researching and ordering 'Bokashi Bran with EM-1.'

Comes complete with bio-char, etc.

A search and acquisition resulting from the collecting of others' organic bloom (and other) soil formulas.

And as a side benefit, I believe I've finally found something the entire household can eat; plants, people, and dogs alike... Just kidding.. I think...

Much cheaper to make the stuff, it seems, and probably better for being fresh, in that regard, but the quantities involved would leave me with a lifetime supply from very little EM-1 and molasses, so for now, I'll do a trial run with the lesser amount I ordered, and see if it's worth making more in the future..

EM-1
https://logicalgardener.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=122

 

[moose eater]

Thanks, h.h.

Good, somewhat brief read.

The recipes I found on-line earlier called for rice bran and wheat bran, though some simply use wheat bran.

A qt of the (liquid) EM-1 at Amazon was about $30, with free shipping. A 3-lb. package of the (already mixed and fermented) Bokashi Bran with EM-1, bio-char, etc. was about $13. I think both were/are available via Prime.

Not sure if they can ship it to me without inadvertent freezing, and I know that many micro-organisms resent being frozen. We'll see..

Sounds like a good pro-biotic for plants and critters/humans alike.

Didn't see why the plant EM-1 requires substantially less fermentation time than the instructions for humans

And I'm pretty certain the recipes I found for making it at home never reached the 30-40% moisture/humidity level referenced in the linked article. In fact, the dry items being added to the EM-1:molasses:H2O mix seemed in most cases to dwarf the liquids. WAY more dry than wet.

If I see successes in the use of what's coming, and decide to make my own, I'll need to do further reading about that.

 

[h.h.]

EM-1

Microorganisms: 1 million colony forming units/cc (units/ml), 1%: Lactobacillus plantarum, Lactobacillus casei, Lactobacillus fermentum, Lactobacillus delbrueckii, Bacillus subtilis, Saccharomyces cerevisiae, Rhodopseudomonas palustris
INACTIVE INGREDIENTS:
96% Water and 3% Molasses

http://www.goodmicrobes.org/whyem/listofmicrobesinem1usa.html

I think what Tim may have been cultivating with the ice chest was the Rhodopseudomonas palustris. I won't go into detail cause I'm usually wrong. Better to read what he wrote.

The rest are different lacto's except the Saccharomyces cerevisiae. which is baker's yeast.

Bacillus subtilis is the natto I spoke of.

You can refine lacto from rice water using milk for a culture. Not sure which variety you get though .

I went ahead and ordered some other stuff that was 1 million colony forming units/cc (of just Rhodopseudomonas palustris. Figured I have the natto and I'll do a rice wash for lacto.


I wasn't planning on it,but it may be time to put some soil together. Get ready for next year.

 

[moose eater]

EM-1

https://www.goodmicrobes.org/whyem/listofmicrobesinem1usa.html

I think what Tim may have been cultivating with the ice chest was the Rhodopseudomonas palustris. I won't go into detail cause I'm usually wrong. Better to read what he wrote.

The rest are different lacto's except the Saccharomyces cerevisiae. which is baker's yeast.

Bacillus subtilis is the natto I spoke of.

You can refine lacto from rice water using milk for a culture. Not sure which variety you get though .

I went ahead and ordered some other stuff that was 1 million colony forming units/cc (of just Rhodopseudomonas palustris. Figured I have the natto and I'll do a rice wash for lacto.


I wasn't planning on it,but it may be time to put some soil together. Get ready for next year.

Thanks, h.h.

My pattern in dealing with life demands in times of stress or anxiety, meaning any serious movement at all in one definitive direction or another, is often to find the 20 things that I should've done last year, that weren't addressed, and do them instead of the things I'm supposed to be doing right now.

Constructive procrastination in some respects. And the movement on the other seemingly unrelated issues, allows the stress to subside enough to better free up my efforts when I finally do address the more immediate & urgent jobs.

My wife says I get more stuff done when preparing for a trip, than any other time. The stress of preparations for travel find me doing all those things that should've been done long ago, and that have little or nothing to do with my trip.

Thus today, with the mothers closer to getting their re-potting, and my settling on a course of action in that regard, I'm instead first changing out all of the batteries in the hard-wired smoke and CO detectors, as well as the batteries in the digital thermostats.

After that, I think I'm going to go with the very oldest veg soil recipe posted earlier, but use 1/64th tsp/gal H2O of Sodium borate, and 1/2 tsp of Sea90, along with humic and fulvic acids, Great White myco inoculant, reduced dolomite (1-1/4 TBSP/gal of soil), and vary both N and Ca sources mo' betta'.. and add a bit (not much) of the FFOF. Then see how they feel about me after that.

The Bokashi bran is on its way, and I can always till some into the tops of the pots early on in their re-rooting, at the perimeter of their roots.

Just as I was going to do the smoke detectors and such, the power went out briefly as a result of the snow storm. Murphy is like a twin brother sharing a bedroom with me sometimes...

 

[h.h.]

My mistake. What I have ordered does have the lacto and is basically the same as EM-1. I won't mention the name because there are a few of these concoctions out there with one perhaps as good as the next.
This stuff is supposed to have a sulfur stink to it. I don't remember EM-1 stinking.

I know your twin brother well. We've had a lot of fun adventures together. Keeps life interesting.

Not much snow yet.

 

[moose eater]

View ImageMy mistake. What I have ordered does have the lacto and is basically the same as EM-1. I won't mention the name because there are a few of these concoctions out there with one perhaps as good as the next.
This stuff is supposed to have a sulfur stink to it. I don't remember EM-1 stinking.

I know your twin brother well. We've had a lot of fun adventures together. Keeps life interesting.

Not much snow yet.

View Image

View Image
<a href="https://imgur.com/a/Z82V0" target="_blank">View Image

I couldn't get your images to open. My connection speed, program(s), or ???

I noted when I first used a moderate+ dose of the langbeinite, a ways into the grow, I could distinctly smell sulfur. I hadn't used an overwhelming amount, as I was aware of the rather stout numbers, and though I realized shortly thereafter that I'd used too much, especially in light of the additional (albeit infrequent &/or mild) feedings I was giving, I was a bit surprised at the telling smell of sulfur. But I've always had a fairly sensitive and accurate shnozz, too.

Still trying to get on-track here with the mothers' soil, but now I have the game plan, as mentioned.

Three trips to town today for plumbing parts, veterinarian visit, dropping someone off, car repairs for one vehicle, etc. eats my lunch for me...

Hopefully this evening I'll have enough energy left to get the soil done. Wore myself out blowing the 10"-12" from the rather HUGE driveway, turn-around, parking areas, paths to the barn and compost, etc..

TONIGHT!!!!!!.... I hope.....

 

[h.h.]

The pictures don't even appear on my post. I didn't think they loaded.

It was just one picture showing a sunny day. The horses were over visiting the pigs with a couple turkeys in the foreground.

I got horse shit, pig shit, turkey shit, and they brought me a truck load of llama shit the other day. Needs to age a bit.
Got some old soil to recycle. Mostly sphagnum peat moss mixed with Dr. Earth potting mix. Never did anything with it. Chickens been nesting in some of it. Some of it is full of worms.
Got soy bean meal to ferment. some EM-1 wanna be pond scum in a bottle.
Mojave Gold yucca powder.
Looking for gypsum.
No fireplace. No ashes or char.
Maybe I'll use the mixer.

 

[moose eater]

There's a long-dormant part of a more energized and youthful me, from decades ago, that misses having live-stock.

Mentioned to my youngest son that I'd like to raise a couple weaner pigs, some milking goats, and maybe some turkeys, too, for the self-sufficiency of it, and for old times' sake.. Plenty of room for it. Just need to do pens during the none frozen months, and wire in heat lamps. Goats and birds need some warmth in the winter here, and the pigs would strictly be raised from about March through October or November, otherwise they'd start burning off their 'expensive fat' in response to the cold..

I made the mistake of using horse manure in the veggie gardens one year that hadn't been properly composted; chick weed nightmare from hell!!! Still fight it -every- year.. Starting to accept it as ground cover during vegetable gardening season...

I'd suspect the turkey droppings would be every bit as helpful as chicken manure, though more of it; hard to find a 25 lb. chicken without renting a sci-fi flick. ;^>)