Aluminum is available at all pH's. I have plenty of leaf analysis in high pH soils to prove it. Grapes, blueberries, citrus and asparagus in alkaline soils.
Has a lot to do with the balance of the other metals, especially Mn.
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Aluminum is available at all pH's. I have plenty of leaf analysis in high pH soils to prove it. Grapes, blueberries, citrus and asparagus in alkaline soils.
Has a lot to do with the balance of the other metals, especially Mn.
M
moose eater
Is this why you'd written in the other thread that zeolite -can- (not will but can) become a negative issue? (*I thought I'd read that, anyway?).
What ratio or presence would you place on zeolite in soilless mix that will be used once, then sent to the raised beds and potato field? (*With the initial mix having a ph range of 6.0 to 7.0)
Thanks!!
Was there toxicity? I've known a lot of farmers raising grapes and citrus. My dad was an expert on alkaline desert soils. Aluminum was never a concern.
I can't find anything supporting it other than possible poor lab prototypical.
https://www.extension.purdue.edu/extmedia/nch/nch-46.html
Admittedly, I'm limited to what I find on Google and a few life experiences. I don't want to come across with expertise that I don't own and I mean no disrespect to yours. I value your opinion. It's just my job to question.
Sourcing zeolite at a good price has been a little problematic. I wouldn't be using it if I was going to toss my soil, though I wouldn't mind having it in my garden,
I was considering pond size rock for the worm beds. I could easily screen them out and reuse them.
Like Doc said. "What would a farmer do?" You're trying to make money. Not spend it.
I did a lot of stone work. Some of our sourced stone was questionable where the guys would ask whether to use it or not. My standard answer was "if you have to ask, the answer is no." When in doubt, leave it out. You'll always question it if you don't. If you do use it, limit it to a few pots.
A sacrificial plant not only to access harm but as a cost assessment as well.
My personal view is that if agricultural zeolite was leaching excessive aluminum, it would have been reported. There are enough independent studies to have done so.
M
moose eater
Thanks, h.h.
When I tried the 2 links immediately above, ( https://www.ccmaknowledgebase.vic.gov..._Aluminium.htm & https://www.ccmaknowledgebase.vic.gov...ok/22_Lime.htm ) my relatively stout security system warns me of something trying to send encrypted stuff past my 'screen.' When I don't know what it is, I block the under-the-table material in a reflexive manner. Just habit from years of other efforts gone by.
My initial statement re. perception of your ca amounts from bone and gypsum was a brain fart. As stated in the edit in other words, it looks notably less than what I'm using right now, in terms of ratio/amount/presence.
I haven't checked the feed stores re. availability. If they bring zeolite up for their own store stock, via the barges into Anchorage or Valdez, or trucks via the ferry into Haines, on a 1 or 2 x's/year basis, then the shipping isn't necessarily too overwhelming, unless they want to jack it up for being a relatively exclusive item.
I can also sometimes get bulkier items sent 4th class/parcel post, retail, insurable and trackable for less than some other forms of freight, but I'm guessing 50 lbs is the limit there, and as with dolomite, it doesn't take much volume to hit that weight.
Thought about ph-ing the Ak Whitefish Bone Meal and trying a substitute using a majorioty of that in place of guanos or bone meal, for its calcium richness and the slightly higher, but in the ballpark, N, as well as moderately high, attractive P levels..
One of the questions I've had from others concerning thinking about going organic is the K question. I just tell them what I think I know; wood ash works but is potentially caustic (and fairly mobile/soluble, as well as notably alkaline), kelp and green sand run lower numbers in K and the micro-nutes (esp. in kelp) can become an issue. 0-0-50 on up to 0-0-62 in pot ash is stout stuff and has to be used sparingly, as well being more a natural/mineral than an organic. And langbeinite/Sul-Po-Mag runs high sulfur and magnesium, and can also cause problems when used in even moderate amounts.
In that regard, care-free sourcing of K is often a problem-child, after the rest of this is set..
When I tried the 2 links immediately above, ( https://www.ccmaknowledgebase.vic.gov..._Aluminium.htm & https://www.ccmaknowledgebase.vic.gov...ok/22_Lime.htm ) my relatively stout security system warns me of something trying to send encrypted stuff past my 'screen.' When I don't know what it is, I block the under-the-table material in a reflexive manner. Just habit from years of other efforts gone by.
My initial statement re. perception of your ca amounts from bone and gypsum was a brain fart. As stated in the edit in other words, it looks notably less than what I'm using right now, in terms of ratio/amount/presence.
I haven't checked the feed stores re. availability. If they bring zeolite up for their own store stock, via the barges into Anchorage or Valdez, or trucks via the ferry into Haines, on a 1 or 2 x's/year basis, then the shipping isn't necessarily too overwhelming, unless they want to jack it up for being a relatively exclusive item.
I can also sometimes get bulkier items sent 4th class/parcel post, retail, insurable and trackable for less than some other forms of freight, but I'm guessing 50 lbs is the limit there, and as with dolomite, it doesn't take much volume to hit that weight.
Thought about ph-ing the Ak Whitefish Bone Meal and trying a substitute using a majorioty of that in place of guanos or bone meal, for its calcium richness and the slightly higher, but in the ballpark, N, as well as moderately high, attractive P levels..
One of the questions I've had from others concerning thinking about going organic is the K question. I just tell them what I think I know; wood ash works but is potentially caustic (and fairly mobile/soluble, as well as notably alkaline), kelp and green sand run lower numbers in K and the micro-nutes (esp. in kelp) can become an issue. 0-0-50 on up to 0-0-62 in pot ash is stout stuff and has to be used sparingly, as well being more a natural/mineral than an organic. And langbeinite/Sul-Po-Mag runs high sulfur and magnesium, and can also cause problems when used in even moderate amounts.
In that regard, care-free sourcing of K is often a problem-child, after the rest of this is set..
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I had the same response from the links after I posted them. I had no problems with the websites. Maybe because they're Australian.
A 2016 report;
[QUOTEConclusions
Our hydroponic experiments indicate that S. paniculata has the capacity to accumulate Al in its aboveground tissues. Al accumulation in this species appears to be facultative and the beneficial effect of Al on its growth is complicated by the different response to Al between seedlings and saplings. Variation in Al levels across different organs and tissues in S. paniculata is similar to tropical species within this genus, with the highest Al concentrations occurring in leaves and bark tissue.
][/quote]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5091896/
Higher accumulation in some species MAY be desirable.
I'm just not seeing a problem, especially with larger sizes.
Speaking of which, I found it in powder form. I'm not sure about the claims, but speaking of K, it was advertised as
A 2016 report;
[QUOTEConclusions
Our hydroponic experiments indicate that S. paniculata has the capacity to accumulate Al in its aboveground tissues. Al accumulation in this species appears to be facultative and the beneficial effect of Al on its growth is complicated by the different response to Al between seedlings and saplings. Variation in Al levels across different organs and tissues in S. paniculata is similar to tropical species within this genus, with the highest Al concentrations occurring in leaves and bark tissue.
][/quote]
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5091896/
Higher accumulation in some species MAY be desirable.
I'm just not seeing a problem, especially with larger sizes.
Speaking of which, I found it in powder form. I'm not sure about the claims, but speaking of K, it was advertised as
https://www.researchgate.net/public...mobilisation_and_potassium_:laughing:errosols
M
moose eater
Thanks.
As is common, I'm out of rep. Too many thoughtful or decent things posted, I respond to too many with a positive click, and I'm broke before the day's started. Such is life...
I'm headed back to bed for a bit, after having gotten up in the middle of the night to check humidity in the last of the drying flowers. I'll go to the link(s) that are available in the later part of the morning.
Thanks again.
As is common, I'm out of rep. Too many thoughtful or decent things posted, I respond to too many with a positive click, and I'm broke before the day's started. Such is life...
I'm headed back to bed for a bit, after having gotten up in the middle of the night to check humidity in the last of the drying flowers. I'll go to the link(s) that are available in the later part of the morning.
Thanks again.
Read the articles by Breazeale here. You must read a bit between the lines though and ask what if.. then there is the Australian article, Chemistry, Phytotoxicity and Remediation of Alkaline soils. Pretty straight forward.
On a personal note, once grapes get to about 400 ppm of Aluminum, they don't respond to anything... we just tear them out and replace them. In San Diego on avocado, we are seeing the same thing.
https://goo.gl/drwtMe
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I have seen zeolite raise aluminum levels in crops dramatically in alkaline soils. It is nearly 13% Al. I wouldn't use it....
Using good seaweeds and using a rifle vs shotgun approach with micros, you will be much better off. I think one of the reasons folks see a positive response early on is due to the Ca content. Al toxicity doesn't show til you get some breakdown from biology, etc...
M
moose eater
Not to belabor an issue taking better shape, but during and after my napping was interrupted by the telephone, this occurred to me;
If used in a container garden for 3-4 months, then discarded into a larger outdoor garden, & thereby eventually distributed around a much greater volume of soil than it came from or was initially put into, the short-term bennies for the smaller aggregate containers may be realized with minimal risk (????), and once deposited into the larger gardens, the benefits reduced, but the negatives diluted by volume, too.
"Dilution is the solution to pollution..."
That, and an image of a red dog, trotting out our lengthy driveway, in my mind's eye, were the last two things I recall before consciousness took over.
Not so ironic was that the call was someone telling me the only zeolite they could get is in tiny, expensive canisters for refilling aquarium filters.
Any thoughts, other than my logic might improve with some more sleep?
If used in a container garden for 3-4 months, then discarded into a larger outdoor garden, & thereby eventually distributed around a much greater volume of soil than it came from or was initially put into, the short-term bennies for the smaller aggregate containers may be realized with minimal risk (????), and once deposited into the larger gardens, the benefits reduced, but the negatives diluted by volume, too.
"Dilution is the solution to pollution..."
That, and an image of a red dog, trotting out our lengthy driveway, in my mind's eye, were the last two things I recall before consciousness took over.
Not so ironic was that the call was someone telling me the only zeolite they could get is in tiny, expensive canisters for refilling aquarium filters.
Any thoughts, other than my logic might improve with some more sleep?
https://www.kmizeolite.com/technical-data/
11.48% Al!!! Please explain why the plant won't pick up this Al and yet everything else?
Head of Albert creek, east end of Horn Mountain.
https://www.arlis.org/docs/vol2/hydropower/SUS10014.pdf
https://www.arlis.org/docs/vol2/hydropower/SUS10014.pdf
It isn't available.
Just recently I was discussing this Al issue and the reasons that it happens in alkaline soils with Steve Solomon whose book you quote.
I read through quickly the article you sent in. I am not sure the exact point you are trying to make.
Out of the bag, unweathered, I agree.
Then stick it into an organic medium or soil with organic material and decent microbiology, top dressed with manures, etc.. and what about the availability then?
Looks like this stuff is made of silicates of everything, including Ca. If the Ca can become available, why won't the Al get picked by the interaction of the amino and organic acids emitted by good roots, not to mention the organic acids from all the organic amendments?
And you want me to pay for it too?
M
moose eater
What amount of time is estimated the Aluminum takes to become available in an organic soil, if it does become available?
That was what I was getting at with the container garden issue; if the aluminum is bound up for the period it takes the plants in pots to reach maturity, and doesn't become available until after it reaches the greater garden(s)(????), is it a win:win?
I'm perfectly willing to go either way with it, but the one link I re-posted, praising zeolite's benefits impressed me.
Not a chemist, geologist, or biologist, but curious about the above inquiry.
And both of you are allowing me to read and balance things in my own mind, though there are questions like this one that I wonder if they'd work out as I described.
That was what I was getting at with the container garden issue; if the aluminum is bound up for the period it takes the plants in pots to reach maturity, and doesn't become available until after it reaches the greater garden(s)(????), is it a win:win?
I'm perfectly willing to go either way with it, but the one link I re-posted, praising zeolite's benefits impressed me.
Not a chemist, geologist, or biologist, but curious about the above inquiry.
And both of you are allowing me to read and balance things in my own mind, though there are questions like this one that I wonder if they'd work out as I described.
M
moose eater
I've hitch-hiked and driven past/through Cache Creek MANY times over the years.. many; intersection of Trans Canada Hwy 1 and Hwy 97. Neat northern desert area in general. Now a giant truck stop to some degree.
The write-up above is yet another piece that seems overwhelmingly convincing.
As written before, I've used aluminum sulfate as an acidifier, but typically only for ornamentals. I -may- have used it sparingly one year in place of or in conjunction with iron sulfate &/or sulfur, the latter of which I found to be most forgiving when the gardens ODed.
As stated, my curiosity and interest is now peaked.
Buffer it...It takes a low pH to make it available.
It doesn't stay in the soil when it is soluble. Talk to the blue hydrangea people.
There's a lot of study out there by others besides Steve Solomon.
