Soil ?s for new grower

[Gokart Mozart]

Hello everyone, I am a new grower and plan on growing in the outdoors (Latitude 44N). I have just spent the last 4 weeks reading the thread on organics for beginners, (god it is big) and have decided on the mix I am going to use, but I have a question about how much soilless mix to use per plant and how big to dig the holes. My plan is to use large garbage bags with holes poked in the bottom. Put those in the hole and fill with my mix. I also learned about feeding with organic nutrients and plan to do that as well. After spending 4 weeks reading that thread, I was hoping someone could just give me some advice on how big to make each hole, and how much mix to use for each plant. Any links to threads that may help me would also be appreciated. If anyone sees something wrong with my plan...please let me know. I will continue to read this amazing forum, which is just what I was looking for, but it is too vast for me to spend the time looking for the specific info I seek in a timely manor. I want to get going on this stuff. Thank you so much to everyone. Also, with what I have planned, is a QP per plant a realist goal?

 

[Rob547]

what kind of soil you got there? Mine is rocky and rooty as shit, not even worth trying to do much without some sort of machinery.. (42N). Probably do 10+ gallons, soil or in ground. 10 gallon pots aren't really that much, also depends on budget.

Another thread to read is Growing large plants outdoors: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=159846&page=210

 

[Gokart Mozart]

Not sure yet what the native soil is like. Does that matter if I am going to make a mix and put the mix in bags that have holes poked in them? The mix I will use is 50% peat, 30% perlite and 20% worm castings, with some lime as well. Wont the bag isolate my mix and render the native soil inconsequential? I'm just wondering how much soil each bag will need to let the plants grow free? For the sake of argument...let's say budget isn't an issue. I mean, I don't want to go crazy, but I am not opposed to spending what needs to be spent. I was also wondering, since I will be putting my nutrients in the water when I water them, what if there is a lot of rainfall and I then add more water in an effort to get them the nutrients they need? Could I possibly over water them, or are the chances of that happening slim to none? Thanks again for any help everyone....and I have looked at that thread you mentioned above....thank you though.

 

[Buddah Watcha]

i would dith the plastic bags... just dig holes and fill with soil, if the roots overgrow your holes they will hit the soil nearby and continue to grow.

more soil = more yield

id go with at least 10+ gallons per hole for a decent harvest, if the dirt where you are growing is good its a big plus and you might luck out.

if you are trying to get big plants that yield very well, go with at least 25 gallons.

more important the the money you will invest if the labor it will take to dig holes and haul soil in. so keep that in mind...

best of luck, keep reading! knowledge is power

 

[dank.frank]

Quick thread, with only two pages to read...lol.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=281442


The size of your holes and how much soil you use is going to be dependent on how much you expect to yield and how big you are able to let them grow.

I agree with Buddah Watcha above - forget the plastic bags if you are going to plant directly into soil...no need for that.



dank.Frank

 

[Gokart Mozart]

Thanks for the info guys. This site is great, but sometimes I think there is too much info here....very easy for me to get side tracked. I am going to continue to read....for years probably. Frank, you said, "the size of your hole and how much soil you use is going to be dependent on how much you expect to use and how big you are able to let them grow"....size isn't a huge concern for me as far as security goes. I would like them to be as big as possible without having to do anything too advanced for someone on their first grow. I don't quite understand what you're asking when you say hole size and soil amount is dependent on how much I expect to use. Do you mean, "how much herb I expect to use throughout the coming year"? If that's what you meant, more is better. I have plenty of people I could share the bounty with. If that's not what you meant, could you explain? Basically I would like my plants as big as possible without getting into techniques that might make me lose focus on the basics. I was also wondering, should I be doing any LST to my plants if they are going outside, or is that something only indoor growers do? Thanks again all.

 

[soil margin]

Basically I would like my plants as big as possible without getting into techniques that might make me lose focus on the basics.

Then focus on digging as big of holes as possible (width more important than depth) and fill them with as high quality of a soil mix as possible. If you aren't setting up irrigation, I recommend mixing in some water polymer crystals to make sure the plants don't dry up too much between waterings.

Lots of space for roots + consistent water supply = big plants.

 

[Buddah Watcha]

what frank said is that the yield will be relative to how much soil you have... more roots = more buds...

if you are willing to put in the work make 100 gal holes... 1 4cu bale of peat moss, 2cu bag of perlite and 2 cu of compost... that should make you have some monsters...

but then again its not easy hauling bails of peat moss to the woods takes lots of work depending on your situation!

 

[jay-toker]

.

 

[dank.frank]

I edited my previous post - that was supposed to be hole size depends on what you expect to yield...

While it's easy to say - "as much as possible" - that sort of generic answer / goal doesn't really make it possible for anyone to give you the EXACT specific type of information you are after...

Part of proper planning, is have known expectations and a desired goal to achieve - by setting such things - you are able to put the right constraints on your efforts. The ability to provide water is typically the largest limiting factor when growing outdoors - especially if growing in a more guerrilla type fashion. Specific goals lead to specific outcomes.



dank.Frank

 

[Gokart Mozart]

Good advice Frank. My goal is 1.5 pounds per plant. This is my first grow, so I also have the goal of learning how to read my plants and give them what they need to be green and healthy. I will have 5 Northern Lights, and 5 Wonder Woman plants on secluded private property. There is a cabin and a well on the property, but it is 2.5 hours away from me. Getting the water to the plants isnt my biggest concern.....getting me to the plants to make sure they have what they need is. I plan on using a soiless mix of 50% peat, 30% perlite and 20% EWC or mushroom compost. I will also add dolomite lime, and Liquid Karma to the soil while mixing. My main concern is watering. I dont know how much water 10 plants in the outdoors will need, and having to drive 5 hours round trip to water has me worried that I wont have enough quality prepared water for them. With this concern in mind, I am having a hard time deciding how to "feed" the plants. I would prefer to mix blood/bone and kelp meal to the soil, and just use bubbled water, but I am worried that these amendments will attract animals. Another choice is to use guano/kelp teas, but I am worried that I wont have enough equipment to brew the amount of tea I will need for 10 plants. I have been told that the teas need to "brew" for at least 24 hours, and are only good for 2 days at most. This means I would have to set things up on a timer so it is ready when I get there. I think I would also need several buckets and pumps to brew enough for 10 plants. The other option is to use Neptunes Harvest and fish emulsion. This seems easiest, but again, I dont know if this needs to be bubbled and used in a timely manner.

Could anybody give me some estimated numbers on how much water 10 plants will need during the height of the summer months. I know there is no exact numbers, and that it will be dependent on what the plant needs, but I was hoping for some ball park numbers to help me plan, and decide on my nutrient delivery. I mean is it around 50 gallons per plant...25...10..5? Having a rough estimate will really help me make the final decision.

So that is where i'm at. I appreciate everyone's advice and say thank you to all. I am very open to recommendations, and follow directions good. I am the kind of person who likes to know exactly what the plan is, and follow it. I know there is much to learn, and I am trying to make this grow as basic as possible so I can focus on those basics right now.

 

[dank.frank]

Well, you are further north and probably don't have extreme summer temps...

A lot of things change how much water you need to supply.

Are they going to be in DIRECT sunlight for a full 12 hrs? If so, this will allow you to have denser flowers and better yields but also result in much great water usage.

How much rainfall is average for the area.

Water retention of the medium that you use.

Deeper holes hold water better than more shallow / wide holes, but also result in naturally taller plants - where as in a wider more shallow hole, plants will bush a bit more.

With only 10 plants - 5 of each kind - you could certainly consider doing a large single bed as opposed to individual holes - although it might take a bit more work digging, you will have better water retention across a larger bed of soil than individual holes / containers.

Seeing as it doesn't seem you are installing any sort of drip irrigation - then I'd certainly plant directly into the ground vs having the containers sitting above ground. Keeping the root mass out of the heat of the sun (sides of the containers) will also help reduce water evaporation from the medium...

How much water you ultimately need will vary based on your particular circumstances...and how you prepare when evaluating your limitations. If you know you are going to be unable to provide a steady supply of water - you have to take that into consideration and plan accordingly.

I'd skip the mushroom compost and use EWC...much better quality.

You shouldn't be surprised if you are in full sun and your plants in 25 gallon holes are able to using 3-5 gallons each per day...every day.



dank.Frank

 

[Gokart Mozart]

Keep it coming Frank....I really appreciate it. As far as my soil mix water retention, I have no idea. I don't even know how I would test that. The average rainfall in my area, from May to October, is around 3.5 inches per month. With a low of 3.1 inches in May, and a high of 3.9 inches in June and August. The record temperature for this area is 95F, with the average temp for the growing season around 71F. I planned on going with EWC, but that is the most expensive component by far, so I was considering mushroom compost. I will go with the EWC on your recommendation. The reason I was going to do individual holes was for security reasons. I thought scattered plants would be harder to detect than one single bed. The plants will be on 1 1/2 acres of private property, in a very rural area. I am going to take your advice, and not use bags or containers, but will probably still plant in individual holes.

I know that your water figures were just ballpark numbers, but it is still nice to have somewhere to start when planning how much water I will need to prepare. 3 to 5 gallons of water per plant, per day? Holy shit!! Does the almost 4 inches of rain a month alter that at all? That means I would need 15-50 gallons of tea everyday. The recipes are below, and I get them in a great thread called "organics for beginners". I dont know how much guano and maxicrop to get, because most of those are sold by weight, and the recipe uses volumes. Any idea how much a cup of guano weighs....or a tsp of maxicrop? Having those figures would help me figure out how much of that stuff to get. I also wonder what the best system would be for bubbling up to 50 gallons of tea a day? Any advice on how to set this up so I can do my teas properly?


RECIPE #3 (My favorite)
If you want to use guano tea and kelp...

Guano Tea and Kelp:

Seedlings less than 1 month old nutrient tea mix

Mix 1 cup earthworm castings into 5 gallons of water to make the tea. Add 5 tsp. Black Strap Molasses.
Use it to water your seedlings with every 2nd or 3rd watering.

Veg mix-

1/3 cup Peruvian Seabird Guano (PSG)
1/3 cup High N Bat Guano (Mexican)
1/3 cup Earth Worm Castings (EWC)

(That makes the "dry mix". You can make all you want and save it to use later.)

Mix with water @ 1 cup of dry mix into 5 gallons of water to make the tea.

To that 5 gallons of tea add:
5 tbs. Maxicrop or Neptune's Harvest liquid seaweed.
5 tsp. Black Strap Molasses

Use it to water with every 3rd watering.

Flowering nute tea mix:

2/3 cup Peruvian Seabird Guano
2/3 cup Earth Worm Castings
2/3 cup High P Guano (Indonesian or Jamaican)

(That makes the "dry mix". You can make all you want and save it to use later.)

Mix with water @ 2 cups of dry mix into 5 gallons of water to make the tea.

To that 5 gallons of tea add:
5 tbs. Maxicrop or Neptune's Harvest liquid seaweed.
5 tsp. Black Strap Molasses
Use it to water with EVERY watering.

You can use queen size knee high nylon stockings for tea bags. 3 pair for a dollar at the dollar store. Tell 'em you use them for paint strainers. Put the recommended tea in the stocking, tie a loop knot in it and hang it in your tea bucket. The tea should look like a mud puddle. Agitate the bag in the water vigorously. An aquarium pump and air stone will dissolve oxygen into the solution and keep the good bacteria (microherd) alive and thriving. Let it bubble a day or two before you use it. If you find you are making too much tea and having to throw it out, use 2 1/2 gallons of water and cut the nute amount by half.

There is also a link to the thread (https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=53792) where I got those recipes. They are in the first post in that thread. Since i've never done this before, and others may have, do you have any recommendations for which recipe would make the watering easier? Recipe #5 looks simple, but if I have to bubble just like recipe #3, I will probably just go with #3. Any idea which would be less expensive? Thats all the questions for now. I hope you dont mind? I really REALLY appreciate the help, thank you so much.

 

[dank.frank]

Very familiar with BurnOne's thread...

If the plants aren't in direct sunlight and the temps are scorching hot and you get plenty of rain and you put them in the ground and use a mulch of the top of the holes and use soil moist crystals and add amendments like diatomaceous earth that help plants deal with drought / heat stress and improve water retention - then you shouldn't have any issues with keeping the plants watered.

There are many mixes that don't require you to provide additional feedings with teas and such - where all you have to do is water the plants. Makes outdoor much easier then - especially if you aren't going to be present at the grow site to care for them daily.

I've grown in a similar outdoor climate and never once had to provide additional - but that year I dug a large bed that was 10' x 10' x 18". That bed also only had 10 plants in it - but they were not getting full sun for 12+ hours every day either...so that has a huge impact not only on water requirements, but also plant size and bud density, etc, etc, etc



dank.Frank

 

[Buddah Watcha]

Had written a long post but its gone... so heres what I had said in a shorter version

More compost = more water retention.

If your local soil is heavy on dirt you might get away on never watering your plants. I never water my plants and never seen they wilt or droop.

There are also water retention gels that help to hold water, some people like them I lot, I never found the need to use them.

Mulching your plants will also help with water retention.

Also, for ferts, you can just buy a regular organic tomato fertlizer at big box stores like espoma tomato-tone, its a lot cheaper and easier than buying all sorts of diffenrent ingredients and mixing them at the right ratio..

Hope that helps!

Any questions let me know and Ill try to help you out!

Peace

 

[Buddah Watcha]

lol dank.frank beat me to it he knows his shit!

 

[Gokart Mozart]

Frank and Buddah, thank you so much for helping me like this. I cant tell you how much I appreciate it.

In my last post, I forgot to mention that I am not sure how much direct sunlight the plants will be getting. I have not been to the property yet in person, and winter is just now starting to break. It has been described to me as having a few trees. I am not positive, but from what I've been told, I should be able to get them in direct sunlight the entire day if I plant them separately throughout the property.

Frank, you mentioned that there are several mixes that don't require additional feedings with the water. Could you recommend one to me? I saw the mix you recommended in the link a few posts ago, but that has blood and bone in it. I was led to believe that these amendments will attract animals......is that an exaggeration? Either way, could you recommend a mix that would get me through to harvest with just plain water? Also, because this is well water, am I correct in thinking I do not have to bubble it before use to rid it of chlorine or other chemicals?

Buddah, how does the tomato fertilizer work? Do you mix it in with the soil, or put it water? Do you think it is as effective as the guano teas and such?

Another question I have is: If I am not putting my soil mix in bags, and I am just digging a hole in the ground and filling with my mix, will the plant be constrained at all by the size of the hole? In other words, will the transition from my soil mix to the native soil create some kind of imaginary barrier for the roots?

Is 1.5 lbs per plant a possibility if I mix 20 gallons of my own mix and put it in the ground without bags or containers? I know that my yield is dependent on more factors than that, but I just wanted to know if its even possible.

Christ, I feel more confused now than ever. So far, here is where i'm at....I am going to combine the ingredients mentioned in previous posts for my mix, I will dig 2ft round X 2ft deep size holes (is that 25 gallons?). Fill the holes without using bags or containers in them. That's about it right now. I still need to figure out my nutrient delivery, and then establish a plan for watering.

 

[Buddah Watcha]

Frank and Buddah, thank you so much for helping me like this. I cant tell you how much I appreciate it.

In my last post, I forgot to mention that I am not sure how much direct sunlight the plants will be getting. I have not been to the property yet in person, and winter is just now starting to break. It has been described to me as having a few trees. I am not positive, but from what I've been told, I should be able to get them in direct sunlight the entire day if I plant them separately throughout the property.

Frank, you mentioned that there are several mixes that don't require additional feedings with the water. Could you recommend one to me? I saw the mix you recommended in the link a few posts ago, but that has blood and bone in it. I was led to believe that these amendments will attract animals......is that an exaggeration? Either way, could you recommend a mix that would get me through to harvest with just plain water? Also, because this is well water, am I correct in thinking I do not have to bubble it before use to rid it of chlorine or other chemicals?

Buddah, how does the tomato fertilizer work? Do you mix it in with the soil, or put it water? Do you think it is as effective as the guano teas and such?

Another question I have is: If I am not putting my soil mix in bags, and I am just digging a hole in the ground and filling with my mix, will the plant be constrained at all by the size of the hole? In other words, will the transition from my soil mix to the native soil create some kind of imaginary barrier for the roots?

Is 1.5 lbs per plant a possibility if I mix 20 gallons of my own mix and put it in the ground without bags or containers? I know that my yield is dependent on more factors than that, but I just wanted to know if its even possible.

Christ, I feel more confused now than ever. So far, here is where i'm at....I am going to combine the ingredients mentioned in previous posts for my mix, I will dig 2ft round X 2ft deep size holes (is that 25 gallons?). Fill the holes without using bags or containers in them. That's about it right now. I still need to figure out my nutrient delivery, and then establish a plan for watering.

Hey man, the tomato fertilizer is just a mix of kelp, blood/bone meal/alfafa and a few other things all together, you can check their website or on the label and it will tell you the ingredients, plus has benefitial microbes and fungis. It's already setup on a decent ratio for tomatoes or canna! And yes, you mix it with the soil just like you would mix one of the mixes from the organic thread. You can also top dress the holes if you notice the plants start to look hungry.

Blood and bone migh attract animals, however, if you mix your soil with some time in advance before transplanting your plants, the animals gonna check the spot and most likely leave it alone since there is nothing there for them.

The roots should be able to flow freely to native soil, but it might not be the best type of soil, so you won't be able to use it as effectively as your soil mix, therefore the need to bring some soil!

25 gallons, I'd doubt you'll be able to pull 1.5lbs from it. You might with a good strain and some luck. Usually I pull from anywhere from 3-8oz per 25 gallon hole. But it doesnt mean it cant be done. For something with that yield I wouldnt go anything shorter than 60 gallons. But then again, there are a lot of factors involved. Make sure your plants get at least 6 hours of direct light a day.

Like I said, your first year will be more of a learning experience. So don't be disappointed if you dont get close to your goal.

For that yield I would bring at least a few hundred gallons of soil, like 300, find a nice sunny spot, preferable morning sun, where it will help your plants keep mold away from the morning dew. If you put in the work that can be accomplished easily, it's just a matter of how much time you are willing to put in...

Hope this helps!

Peace!

 

[dank.frank]

I used to go to local hair salons and ask if I could collect a bit of the hair lying around ...

I'd then spread this out all over and around my outdoor plants to keep the smell of "human" around - I've never had problems with animals messing with my plants and I've always used at least some blood / bone meal.

The hair bit I was taught by an old timer who had been growing for over 40 years - and he also never had issues with animals bothering his crop.



dank.Frank

 

[dank.frank]

If you were to dig a 2 ft circular hole 2 ft deep:

To calculate the volume of a cylinder:

V= 3.14 x radius² x height

So:

V = 3.14 x 12"² x 24"

V = 10,857.344 cu in

Cubic in to Cubic ft:

10,857.344 cu in / 1728 = 6.2832 cu ft

Cubic ft to dry gallons:

6.28 cu ft x 6.43 gal per cu ft = 40.38 gallons of soil



dank.Frank