Slownickel lounge, pull up a chair. CEC interpretation

[led05]

The consistent language though, that's the true power of an academic perspective. For instance, what does the word organic mean, haha.

.

whatever preconceptions I had about you have been lost, I love the entirety of your last post but above especially. I also like the comment about 8th grade education but literate as fuck, that's hilarious to me, I don't think you meant it that way, maybe you did, but think about it.... it's seriously funny... "literate as fuck" is probably the funniest thing I've heard in a good while - thank you

 

[paradoxlost]

whatever preconceptions I had about you have been lost, I love the entirety of your last post but above especially. I also like the comment about 8th grade education but literate as fuck, that's hilarious to me, I don't think you meant it that way, maybe you did, but think about it.... it's seriously funny... "literate as fuck" is probably the funniest thing I've heard in a good while - thank you

Haha definitely meant it slightly humourously, but seriously with the internet it's almost inescusable to not read like a textbook, at least, a year. And a lot of people who drop off cause they hate the school system forget to keep up their education on their own.

 

[led05]

foliar

foliar

Lately I'm becoming pretty certain it's impossible to get the amount of Ca needed via the roots without deleterious effects of ride alongs, Gypsum included.... I don't care what the soil "test" shows...

Foliar until week 2 of flower, ur best bet

 

[Guest]

Lately I'm becoming pretty certain it's impossible to get the amount of Ca needed via the roots without deleterious effects of ride alongs, Gypsum included.... I don't care what the soil "test" shows...

Foliar until week 2 of flower, ur best bet

How and what do you use for foliar application?

 

[jidoka]

So here I go again...but first some disclaimers:
1) IMO
2) not a knock on the slow’s method in any way...done as he says no doubt it works
3) I totally agree with the original analysis that all that Ca ain’t real

But - people are way over applying gypsum up front to the point the soils natural cec cannot hold it. Then they do not run enough water through to flush it. So now you have excess cations that artificially inflate the soils cec...that ain’t real

If all of that is Ca and so4 then you end up blocking other cations and anions (P). That slows growth...done it meownself.

What you want to do with gypsum is add it as the plant can take it up...you don’t want false numbers that lead you to bad decisions

Foliar Ca...think carefully about mobile vs not.

 

[EastBayGrower]

Just got my soil tests back from LL, AA 8.2 for 4 major cations and M3 for all others.. first two tests are from different pots and the second 2 are from the same samples with 1 cup of gypsum mixed in (but not watered in so disregard the high S)...

I'm planning on ammending with 1cup gypsum per cf, 3grams borax per yard, and 10grams copper sulfate per yard... also thinking about a tablespoon of ag sulfer per yard to lower the soil PH before planting, that's my main concern... but what else am i missing?

Also thinking of mixing in a 1/4 cup of Bio=Live and a bit of ewc just to get the biological things going, and since i could use a bit of K... but am thinking about leaving out any additional K and feeding once i hit flower...

Any comments/recommendations are highly appreciated!

front...


middle pot


front w/ ~1cup gypsum per cf (unflushed)



middle pot w/ ~1cup gypsum per cf (unflushed)



and just for curious eyes, here's a soil test of the soil last year before any plants had touched it... notice the high K and Na, all gone by now. thats a huge plus but PH still too high...

 

[Hermen_eutics]

Just got my soil tests back from LL, AA 8.2 for 4 major cations and M3 for all others.. first two tests are from different pots and the second 2 are from the same samples with 1 cup of gypsum mixed in (but not watered in so disregard the high S)...

I'm planning on ammending with 1cup gypsum per cf, 3grams borax per yard, and 10grams copper sulfate per yard... also thinking about a tablespoon of ag sulfer per yard to lower the soil PH before planting, that's my main concern... but what else am i missing?

Also thinking of mixing in a 1/4 cup of Bio=Live and a bit of ewc just to get the biological things going, and since i could use a bit of K... but am thinking about leaving out any additional K and feeding once i hit flower...

Any comments/recommendations are highly appreciated!

front...
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=69326&pictureid=1833054]View Image[/url]

middle pot
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=69326&pictureid=1833055]View Image[/url]

front w/ ~1cup gypsum per cf (unflushed)
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=69326&pictureid=1833056]View Image[/url]


middle pot w/ ~1cup gypsum per cf (unflushed)
[URL=https://www.icmag.com/ic/picture.php?albumid=69326&pictureid=1833057]View Image[/url]


and just for curious eyes, here's a soil test of the soil last year before any plants had touched it... notice the high K and Na, all gone by now. thats a huge plus but PH still too high...

It's trippy to me that you applied about 2x as much gypsum but measured only 1/5 as much S as in my Spectrum analysis of 12-17.

Im gonna go back to earlier tests and confirm that the S excess appeared as abruptly as it seems.

Adding manganese to bring Mn ppm close to Fe ppm was mentioned a few times in this thread.

 

[growingcrazy]

So what am I missing? If 40% of your mix is organic material how can your cec for the total not be around 400 plus whatever other contribution?

This is something I have not understood since I started this.

You have an answer yet?

 

[paradoxlost]

You have an answer yet?

Its just a question of math. Whatever rock dust or sand or inorganic material that is making up the rest is swinging the average down.

That or spectrums sum of bases inherently measures less than the CEC cause assuming 100% base saturation is a poor assumption

 

[blkantha]

Looks like slow has taken a backset... Hopr he will be back soon.. If not let us know where to subscribe to learn more or ask Q

 

[growingcrazy]

Its just a question of math. Whatever rock dust or sand or inorganic material that is making up the rest is swinging the average down.

That or spectrums sum of bases inherently measures less than the CEC cause assuming 100% base saturation is a poor assumption

What change occurs to a mediums cation exchange capacity with an increase of pH?

What CEC value have you witnessed from a bale of premier peat or equivalent?

I ask only to learn.

 

[EastBayGrower]

What change occurs to a mediums cation exchange capacity with an increase of pH?

What CEC value have you witnessed from a bale of premier peat or equivalent?

I ask only to learn.

Plain peat

TEC - 14.38
pH - 4.3
O-matter - 91.38
S - 8 ppm
P2O5 - 25 lbs/acre
Ca - 1155 lbs/acre
Mg - 423 lbs/acre
K - 62 lbs/acre
Na - 20 lbs/acre
Ca% - 19.47
Mg% - 11.89
K% - 0.54
Na% - 0.30
H% - 59.00
B - 0.22
Fe - 26
Mn - 9
Cu - <0.2
Zn - 0.71

 

[growingcrazy]

Plain peat

TEC - 14.38
pH - 4.3
O-matter - 91.38
S - 8 ppm
P2O5 - 25 lbs/acre
Ca - 1155 lbs/acre
Mg - 423 lbs/acre
K - 62 lbs/acre
Na - 20 lbs/acre
Ca% - 19.47
Mg% - 11.89
K% - 0.54
Na% - 0.30
H% - 59.00
B - 0.22
Fe - 26
Mn - 9
Cu - <0.2
Zn - 0.71

Fantastic! Now explain the CEC of 14.

 

[jidoka]

Is the real trick to move that H% down to around 10 with what you want then fertigate the rest? Or use a fertilizer with its own cec...compost or biotic?

There may be a reason why the tom hill mix worked so well

 

[growingcrazy]

With a TCEC of 10, what level would you put calcium at?

 

[jidoka]

If we are going there change threads...i promised

 

[paradoxlost]

Fantastic! Now explain the CEC of 14.

So at such a low pH the CEC sites start being taken over by hydrogen and aluminum. The reason why the aluminum is such a problem at low pH is that it goes from aluminum oxide to trivalent aluminum, which takes over CEC sites and leaches out other bases. TCEC is not equivalent to CEC, it's is much much lower. This is because sites occupied by hydrogen and aluminum will not removed by any other single ion, you need a change in the chemical environment. What would want to do there is raise the pH with lime. This will give an actually CEC number.

 

[jidoka]

So check the cec of Promix, which has been pH adjusted with dolomite and get back with us.

 

[paradoxlost]

What change occurs to a mediums cation exchange capacity with an increase of pH?

What CEC value have you witnessed from a bale of premier peat or equivalent?

I ask only to learn.

the CEC would increase, which I have experienced myself. But this also is affected by other factors, including carbonate content as carbonate will precipitate calcium carbonate, which will lower CEC, for example. There are certainly other factors than can affect CEC over a range of pH, such as iron and aluminum content, etc.


Sphagnum peat moss, according to university of Idaho, has a CEC of 100 to 200. Also they are reporting a pH of 4.4. But they are using the BaCl2 method of CEC determination, which is like the amonium acetate test at a high pH.

Let's take a look at the coots mix. One part aeration, one part peat, one part compost, plus various amendments. Let's say the CEC of both the compost and the moss are 100 meq/100 g soil. The aeration is most likely basically 0 meq/100 g soil. Probably has some residual CEC that's less than a meq. That mix would be 60 meq/100 g soil. We recently made a mix loosely based off the coots mix and at a pH of 7 it had a CEC of 24 than at pH 8.2 it had a CEC of 83. There were some other things going on, but right now iits looking fantastic. Just popped two of The One backcross and they look great. This makes sense though. We used very little carbonates in it. The compost we used was the same CEC at pH 7 and only a CEC of 43 at pH 8.2. This indicates the peat moss having most of it's CEC being realized at higher pHs.

Idk why peat moss is so acidic and whatnot, but it's following a reasonable trend.

But jidoka, you mentioned that you were requesting labs weigh samples when they test. This is good practice and should also be done by you before you send in a test. Also retest things from other labs to confirm they aren't making wild assumptions. Universities may not offer the variety of tests a private lab does, but if it confirms their melich 3 numbers you can probably assume they did it right.

 

[led05]

Its just a question of math. Whatever rock dust or sand or inorganic material that is making up the rest is swinging the average down.

That or spectrums sum of bases inherently measures less than the CEC cause assuming 100% base saturation is a poor assumption

Guys, isn't the calculation in part a plug? i.e. it's a calculated value not a measurable one for some aspects?

Everything has limitations, even soil tests