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Simple but Logical Argument

robobond

Future Psychopharmacologist
Was just thinking about this so bear with me. The 8th amendment mentions no cruel and unusual punishment. Now in reality jail time for marijuana is vastly more damaging then the drug itself. Therefore jail time for marijuana could be seen as cruel punishment for that fact. Ofcourse Im not sure how well this argument holds up. I do know that the first marijuana law, the marijuana tax act of 1937, was proven unconstitutional. But then in 1970 the controlled substances act was passed and marijuana was added to the list. For a little while though it was legal thx to Timothy Leary challenging it on the supreme court level. Im not real aquainted with the workings of the controlled substances act other than that pretty much any new drug is placed on the list with the exception of some "natural" drugs such as salvia. They are placed in a scedule then if the drug is found to be more harmful, for instance ecstacy, they mearly move it a schedule so instead of getting special acts passed by congress they can make a substance illegal litterally overnight. So what Im asking is in the right of the punishment not befitting the crime does marijuana fall into this catorgory and if so could it be seen as cruel and unusual?
 
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S

Space Ghost

in the eyes of the government, there's nothing cruel or unusual about your run of the mill jailtime. So unfortunatly, your argument doesn't hold up (at least in the eyes of the gov't)
 

robobond

Future Psychopharmacologist
We have more power over the goverment then you may believe. People get the concept that they are all powerful. It not so much that they are powerful its that we are weak. When they take our rights away we do nothing. Its not as if laws cant be changed its that we dont make the inititive. Now I cant speak for everyone but I no that if we really formed together we could challenge the law. It happened before and was overturned. Who's to say it can't accure again?
 
S

Space Ghost

the people do have the power, but in the current social and political envirnment the majority of people don't want the power. All they want is to be protected from the scary arabs, and just kick back with thier big-macs, marlboros, and budweiser.
 

robobond

Future Psychopharmacologist
accepting the political and social enviroment around us isnt going to change it. think of say all the people who smoke marijuana. if they were to get together we could change the law. why not take from our past and use it to our advantage. for instant the atlanta protests. The african american comunity showed the nation what they had to go through. If we got say 300,000 people to march on washington and light up there would certainly be a reaction. The more the better. The problem lies in are lack of motivation and believing that it cant be done. I guarantee you a million people smoking pot in washington will have an effect and what we would hope for is violence from the police. Show then assaulting us than we can when the publics eye as a peaceful group of people. We may not win all but certainly the majority then we would have the upper hand.
 

naga_sadu

Active member
The 8th amendment mentions no cruel and unusual punishment. Now in reality jail time for marijuana is vastly more damaging then the drug itself.

Since when did our govts hold ammendments and constitution as highest authority?? Some ammendment (forget which one) in 1776 said that all humans are born equal. But slavery continued till a good next century till the capital intensity of the US socio-economy overtook labour intensity in the North which had more $$$.

And, going by mmj history in the US, it wasn't criminalised as a public sector initiative (such as say, renaming french fries to freedom fries which was) but it was a corporate driven initiative started during the era of Hearst and his paper empire (hemp is a very powerful more efficient substitute), which was later endorsed by large scale topshots in the US whose industries/ businesses had lots to loose if hemp + mj became legal. Today' the largest opponents of mj legalisation is the pharma industry...

We have more power over the goverment then you may believe. People get the concept that they are all powerful. It not so much that they are powerful its that we are weak.

SpaceGhost answered this question w/ 100% accuracy. There is another angle to it. Prob is making a meaningful entry / career in today's political scene (esp. in the US) requires funds only the corporate class can dish out. As well as publicity and networking which only the corporate run media can provide. And once u get backing from someone, you're bound to them whether u like it or not. Many forward thinkers in the US are bogged down by this as well...

And lots of proponents in the corporate class either have a direct or indirect vested interest in keeping mj illegal.

I'm glad u bought out the whole jailtime for mj issue because believe it or not, prison building is one of the most profitable and lucrative enterprises in the US. During the times when the "evil SOcialist bear" was still running large, many construction tycoons extracted huge profits thru base building...especially overseas. With the Reds gone, base building initiatives stopped and the US started wrapping up many of its overseas bases. Thus, the primary focus of the construction tycoons are now prison building. It's cheap (no public scrutiny on quality as say a school or office or appartment complex), easy to build and is very profitable because the ppl who dish out the $$$ are the taxpayers.

I wouldn't kid myself if I kinda thought it strange that the richest country in the world hosts more than 22.5% of the world's total prisoner population. Prison building is profitable business.

Lots of frontline politicians such as Pete Stark, and lots of organisations such as LEAP, NORML etc. are working towards legalisation efforts but again, prob is mj illegalisation and criminalisation is a corporate initiative and not a public sector one...and many corpos have a vested interest directly in keeping mj illegal (such as pharma corpos, paper corpos, to an extent chem corpos like DuPont- read DuPont's role w/regards to mj in the late 30s). Also, many corpos such as the prison builders have a vested interest in ensuring that incarceration rates remain high and so would naturally tend to support prohibition. Not to mention a plethora of lobbies and pressure groups such as the police lobby which tend to jump into this fucked up bandwagon...

I've said this many times, I'll say it again: My honest solution is to simply identify corpos who have a vested interest in keeping mj illegal and give alternative goods and services which those corpos provide within your street, or your community. By doing so, you can also create a movement which is self sustaining. Remember, corpos are powerful because they have a large consumer base from which they can extract $$$ outta. Do it slow. Set goals. Monitor your progress. Be patient. You will get your results...

I guarantee you a million people smoking pot in washington will have an effect and what we would hope for is violence from the police.

I can already forsee the following news beaming out the next day:

"WASHINGTON DC: America under attack! Aggressive marijuana fiends storm and besiege the nation's capital in an unprecendented and unprovoked attack on democracy and human rights. While the nation prepares to protect itself from these substance craving terrorists, the Pentagon has confirmed that there's a strong link between marijuana smokers and the axis of evil stretching all the way to the remote mountains of Afghanistan. There are also substancial evidence pointing out that the Al-Qaeda has indeed bribed these fiends with marijuana in return for besieging the nation's capital. The possibility of one of these substance craving fiends possessing a dirty bomb is a true threat to human civilisation indeed and the president has pushed for a $600 billion dollar approval from the Congress to battle this new found menace to freedom and democracy. The president of the US has also pushed for a series of increased national security measures which would make it mandatory to surgically implant a nano tracking and listening device on every citizen."
 
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robobond

Future Psychopharmacologist
naga_sadu said:
"WASHINGTON DC: America under attack! Aggressive marijuana fiends storm and besiege the nation's capital in an unprecendented and unprovoked attack on democracy and human rights. While the nation prepares to protect itself from these substance craving terrorists, the Pentagon has confirmed that there's a strong link between marijuana smokers and the axis of evil stretching all the way to the remote mountains of Afghanistan. There are also substancial evidence pointing out that the Al-Qaeda has indeed bribed these fiends with marijuana in return for besieging the nation's capital. The possibility of one of these substance craving fiends possessing a dirty bomb is a true threat to human civilisation indeed and the president has pushed for a $600 billion dollar approval from the Congress to battle this new found menace to freedom and democracy. The president of the US has also pushed for a series of increased national security measures which would make it mandatory to surgically implant a nano tracking and listening device on every citizen."

Luckily Bush is almost out of office so that shouldnt be a problem in the coming years. As long as it is peaceful the press can play it off as they want/will. All we need is people, lots of people to perform a protest that will get national attention. And ofcourse if we're smoking pot and holding legalize it signs we will get heard. The only problem is organizing such a thing. People dont seem to want to stand up/protest for such things anymore.
 

TBug

Plz forget you know me...Sugaree
Veteran
Space Ghost said:
the people do have the power, but in the current social and political envirnment the majority of people don't want the power. All they want is to be protected from the scary arabs, and just kick back with thier big-macs, marlboros, and budweiser.
High ghost! ....so true. :badday:

High Naga! You sound as though you wrote the sctipt for "V, for vendeta". Have you seen that? It would be your type of movie. The conspiracey theory is of a real concern. But these days, I feel there couldbe a compramise.
lets say that a leagal protest(with signs, not joints) asking for less harsh penalties. Down grade it to a mistomeanor, say, rather than a feloney. Perhaps the growing, in home, for personal use could be leagal. while the transfer or sale of it would remain a crime.
Here's my arguement on this. Try to follow me on this because my less intelligent family and friends have their "horse-blinders" strapped too tight to understand.(even stoner friends)
I have a prestigious career. I perform my duties and resposibilities perfectly everyday. I have not been late or missed a day in two years. i have good credit and own my own home. I am a functioning alcholic, like my father before me. My father died at 55 from liver failer a couple years back. Just before his death I was easily putting down a 12 pack a night. I saw myself in an early grave just like him. So, I started growing and smoking my own in order to cut my drinking. Now like 4 beers and three puffs puts me staight to bed for the whole night, (with no co-pay). Ive never felt better. That was over two years ago and I smoke every day. So, where is the crime? What harm have I caused society? Why should I lose my job, spend 5 years in prison, and lose all my assets as well? Ive hurt no one and only imporved myself.
Surely there are many people like me. Also, There must be some politicians and judges who can think with some common sense. Honestly, suiced is illeagle, but its leagal for me to stay home and kill myself slowly with a case of beer a night. Why is beer leagal? MJ is way less harmful.
These are the points we should be bringing up. lol If there were a push to make beer illeagal because its worse than MJ, I bet the brewing industry would jump on our side with their $$$. If you want to beat the slick politics and corperations, you will have to be "sly" like them. Peace, TBug
 

naga_sadu

Active member
Hey'ya man...

High Naga! You sound as though you wrote the sctipt for "V, for vendeta". Have you seen that? It would be your type of movie.

Never heard of it or seen it.

The conspiracey theory is of a real concern.

The corporate boycotting of marijuana is a well documented fact, starting from Hearst. The alcohol and chem giants such as DuPont spent lotsa $$$ in the whole publicity gulag. WHich kinda makes u wonder how much they spent to get the criminilisation law passed.

There must be some politicians and judges who can think with some ommon sense.

It's not within the best interest(s) of the public sector to keep mj legal, it's way more feasable to legalise it. I bet lotsa politicians want it legalised too. But I've seen how electioneering works in the US. To enter politics or make a meaningful career in it, you'll need the kind of $$$ mostly only corporations can provide- and many of 'em have a vested interest in seeing high incarceration rates (such as the prison builders aka construction giants) as well as keeping mj illegal (ex: the pharma, chem fucknuts).

And once u get backing from them for your political career, your'e pretty much bound to them.

I wouldn't call this a "theory" considering the fallout of events in the US. Today, prison building is so lucrative that the US has become the home to about 22.5% of the world's prisoner pop. That's fucked up. U can explain high incarceration rates in military Junta run regimes and/or in countries where there are absolutely 0 resources and opportunities (so people turn to crime). The US is the richest country in the world, yet hosts the most amount of prisoners in the world.

Goes to show u the degree of influence the corporate class wields over US government. So any action focusing around this would be more result yielding, eventhough not in the short run.
 

TBug

Plz forget you know me...Sugaree
Veteran
high naga! I hear you loud and clear though! rent that movie, its reltivily new.You'll enjoy the unlying truts it implies! Peace, TBug
 
G

Guest

The corporate boycotting of marijuana is a well documented fact, starting from Hearst. The alcohol and chem giants such as DuPont spent lotsa $$$ in the whole publicity gulag. WHich kinda makes u wonder how much they spent to get the criminilisation law passed.

Very well put.
What really gets me going is that the Supreme Court just made DMT (ayuaska) legal, but a much less intoxicating etheogen like Cannabis remains illegal.

Whoever said Cannabis prohibition was a conspiracy shouldn't be using it ... it will make you turn into a needle slamming prostitute and go crazy from dementia, just like in reefer mmadness...
 
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Laxpunker

Active member
The Supreme Court only upheld the right for religious groups to use DMT...which if you're a legit religion the same goes for Marijuana. So really nobody won anything, because even if you are say a Hoppi(sp) Indian you're gonna have to prove very clearly your use was for religous ceremony.
 

naga_sadu

Active member
high naga! I hear you loud and clear though! rent that movie, its reltivily new.You'll enjoy the unlying truts it implies! Peace, TBug

I'll get the DVD shipped to me from the US then. I'm really interested in such movies because I'm doing some research here myself. But anyway, if you want to see everything I mentioned unfolding this very instant, take a trip down to Laos. Or Vietnam. Cambodia too. Laos = awesome stoners heaven but now, the scene is deteriorating. Not drastically but still. It's still not as fucked up as Thailand today, but still, it's heading that way...slowly.

I'm trying to do a study myself, so having that movie would be awesome indeed. I want to try and somehow ennumerate the relationship between a pot scene of a place and the level of corporatism there. In theory, more corporatism = crappier weed scene. I'm trying to ennumerate this w/ some reasonable accuracy.

If it's a movie based on logical facts which happened, it surely will be worth checking indeed, thanks for the tip man!

What really gets me going is that the Supreme Court just made DMT (ayuaska) legal, but a much less intoxicating etheogen like Cannabis remains illegal.

In this day and age, I don't even bother trying to make sense out of laws. Modern day laws in MANY...no, almost all...corporate capitalist countries are tailoured to suit them. Classic example is the slavery issue. Though the 1776 declaration declared "all man is equal before God" or something of that sort, slavery ran well until the civil war. ANd all of a sudden it becomes banned. After 100s of years of practice. It only became banned because the overall US economy (except the states which seceeded to form the confedracy) made its transition to a capital intensive economy from a labour intensive one. The southern states which secceded were still having labour intensive economies.

The slavery thing was just a publically justified stunt used to enable the top shotcallers- the new industrialists- to push their activities down south for expansion. And for the former "slaves"...their real conditions remained as such- they simply mass migrated to the urban centers and were to become...cheap overworkable labour, living in the shantytowns. Lesser cost = more profit.

Point I'm getting at is, in a corporate capitalist economy usually the laws and acts are tailoured to give the corporate class more leverage, money and power. Civics has nothing to do w/ it, so trying to make sense out of them is pretty futile.
 

naga_sadu

Active member
Hey'ya man!! Many thanks for starting this thread!!!

Luckily Bush is almost out of office so that shouldnt be a problem in the coming years.

Prob is not w/ DUbyah or Clinton. Whichever President, is someway or other, directly or indirectly connected w/ corporate funding. Even all the people involved in sustaining the president. The amount of $$$ required to run in politics makes it a must to turn to corporate funding to participate in politics meaningfully, especailly in positions where u influence decisions.

And speaking of which, the present day average American (NOT ALL OF THEM THO but a majority of them) largely base their views on what's fed to them. Corporate culture somehow turns people into zombies by extensively spoonfeeding them. The average person today is much less willing to go out and research facts and do analyses, but instead prefers to get national/ world affairs beamed to the comfort of his own home on a comfy couch and a large TV. And who controls the media? I wouldn't blame the people par se but corporate culture drains the eight shade of shit outta most people. At the end of the working day in a white collar job nowadays, you just have about enough energy to throw a meal in the microwave and hit the sack.

As long as it is peaceful the press can play it off as they want/will. All we need is people, lots of people to perform a protest that will get national attention. And ofcourse if we're smoking pot and holding legalize it signs we will get heard. The only problem is organizing such a thing. People dont seem to want to stand up/protest for such things anymore.

A far safer bet would simply be to find out what corporations have a vested interest in keeping mj illegal and supplying alternative products to what they supply to as many people as you can. After all, corporations survive thru a consumer base. Start small. Find 4-5 people and try and offer them some non corporate alternatve to them. Get them to do the same. For example, instead of headache medicines, migrane pills, you can supply ayurvedic alternatives. Start off small, get and train some young bloods, progress steadily and review your progress monthly. This option is good because it financially sustains the movement. And you and all your people also can share the profits you'll make. A self sustaining movement is a successful one, usually. In today's age, any movement or group which relies on external support (such as donations) seem to be short lived, more than anything else.

And watch out for tricksters who pretend to live and die for the movement but are just in it to give themselfs publicity and fame (usually for...$$$). Don't get shammed by their fake plays and don't let them mislead u. In societies where the media is almost as central as say, food or water, you shouldn't be surprised when u run into a few who hog the limelight under the guise of "the cause" but whose real intent is something not even remotely related to mj or its users.

You'll have to start small and in the beginning it always seems that the goal is way too complicated. But you got to start somewhere. If u wanna climb mount everest, you got to put at least 10 steps in front of the mountain top instead of just ponder over how difficult the task is. WHat I've recommended won't give u too much money or fame but has been done and proven in the very same context in my home state.

The corpos are the central force in making mmj illegal and the topshots calling for criminilisation today are the pharma corpos. There are others too such as chems, paper, etc. WOrk around this. Try and find a non-corporate alternative to the good/ service and try and supply it to some ppl within your community. Do this as much as u can and then try to expand. Set goals realistically. Get as many ppl. to do this. Of course, when selling stuff to people who don't smoke you can't use mj as your reason. You'll have to figure out what their sentiment is and bank on that...
 
G

Guest

The Supreme Court only upheld the right for religious groups to use DMT...which if you're a legit religion the same goes for Marijuana. So really nobody won anything, because even if you are say a Hoppi(sp) Indian you're gonna have to prove very clearly your use was for religous ceremony.

It is not hard to prove at all, ayuaska use is used in a strict religious context by these religions. It is held sacred as Cannabis should be, an etheogen for sure. There is even a ritual for smoking in a group. Very organized... and yes Cannabis is part of the ceremony they conduct. This same religion also has the right to use ayuaska now, I have and know many who do.. It isn't Hoppi Indians either, it's people like me and you who use it. Cannabis is part of the same religion, but is kept on the down low due to the drug war, this is why I believe it could make a very good case for the legalization in a religious context. The more I defend a plant, the more I get on rant mode hahaha.. peace
 
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