should peat be sifted?

[VerdantGreen]

Closer.... (IMO).
... I have no experience with guano (avoided on purpose) but unless it states that it is composted I would only use it topdressed. ...

hi Mm, guano has generally sat in the caves for many years and also been processed/eaten by insects so it is comparable to castings as much as it is manure. (although much more nutrient rich)

mixing it with the soil as an amendment is fine, although it makes a good topdressing too.

V.

 

[maryjohn]

Interesting verdant, I always thought of it as expensive chicken shit. If it's expensive and old chicken shit, that changes things. now if I get some for free I will use it.

Or I will try it and stay proud by not admitting it.

 

[VerdantGreen]

it's manure squared, sh1t twice over i'm quite happy to pay money for it because of the great results i get with it.

guano must be one of the oldest fertilizers known to man, the animals that produced it were sacred to many ancient civilizations. it's not some hot-shot pot gimmick.

V.

 

[maryjohn]

You can understand my reticence, since I don't see it at my garden centers, while I have seen them online and in hydro stores.

Are any of these guanos eco-friendly?

 

[cosmiccowboy]

it's manure squared, sh1t twice over i'm quite happy to pay money for it because of the great results i get with it.

guano must be one of the oldest fertilizers known to man, the animals that produced it were sacred to many ancient civilizations. it's not some hot-shot pot gimmick.

V.

...seen yer grow diary and took special note of the nl.i've got 2 that are in final days of flower,and are doin the same thing..got me tore up fgrom the floor up..

 

[cosmiccowboy]

You can understand my reticence, since I don't see it at my garden centers, while I have seen them online and in hydro stores.

Are any of these guanos eco-friendly?

maryjohn,what do you mean when you say "i picked early for clarity"..if you picked late would it be unclear?...good to see ye about half sober this mornin..you sure do keep jkush on his toes.hehehe

 

[maryjohn]

Well now that I am indoor I can watch the trichomes with a 30x. I like bud with a clear high and as little stone as possible, especially in the summer. Can't study on couch lock and for my job I have to study and memorize things.

So I pick when the trichomes start to cloud, earlier than many. Trichs are clear, and so is the stone. Been reading the bard so I am a bit obsessed with double meanings.

 

[cosmiccowboy]

Well now that I am indoor I can watch the trichomes with a 30x. I like bud with a clear high and as little stone as possible, especially in the summer. Can't study on couch lock and for my job I have to study and memorize things.

So I pick when the trichomes start to cloud, earlier than many. Trichs are clear, and so is the stone. Been reading the bard so I am a bit obsessed with double meanings.

..i've seen the mona lisa,heard shakespeare writ real fine,aint nothin like old johnny cash singin,i walk the line....mj,i'm a big reader.right now on andrew jackson and hemingway.....reason i asked about yer pickin time was i've got 2 that are bout ready and tryin to figure out when to cut em down....

 

[Microbeman]

I was under the impression that with the high pressure on bat guano from the pot industry, aside from pressure from use by local farmers, that it was harvested fresh of late. It would sure be nice, for the bats sakes if everyone switched to compost/vermicompost.

 

[Microbeman]

Although this is from a commercial site, it is interesting reading and there is a good historical overview on their site as well.


http://www.archipelagobatguano.com/3.shtml
The organic Trade Association reports that ninety-six percent of America’s home gardeners would like to garden with products that are approved by the USDA for use in certified organic farming. However, 97% of America’s experienced home gardeners do not know how to identify such fertilizers. This confusion exists because the agency that regulates organic farming is not the same as the agency that regulates fertilizer labeling. For labeling purposes, a fertilizer may be called “organic” if it contains carbon and one or more elements other than hydrogen and oxygen essential for plant growth. “Organic”, however, does not mean “allowed in organic farming.” Because of this, some states, such as Washington, even allow fertilizer to be labeled as “synthetic organic.” It is all very confusing. Thus, many consumers may be unwittingly using unwanted fertilizers.
However, ABG phosphate truly is 100% natural, organic and allowed for use in organic farming. ABG phosphate is listed by the Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI®) for use in production of organic food and fiber. ABG phosphate is fossilized bat guano that has been buried in collapsed caves for thousands of years. Fossilization resulted in depletion of the nitrogen and potentially harmful bacteria that are typically associated with fresh guano. Because of these unique characteristics, ABG phosphate is technically not considered to be guano or manure for regulatory purposes. Instead, OMRI® lists ABG phosphate as a “mined material, unprocessed” and its status is “allowed.” Generally, fruits and vegetables fertilized by materials that have an “allowed” status, such as ABG phosphate, can be harvested any time after fertilization without fear of bacterial contamination. Conversely, fresh guano and manure, because of its potentially harmful bacteria content, generally requires a 90 or 120 day waiting period between fertilization and harvesting of fruits or vegetables.


http://www.archipelagobatguano.com/9.shtml
As for the environment, the guano is found in collapsed caves so there are no bats or other cave creatures present. The only processing that occurs is that the guano is ground up to a uniform size. Thus, there are no harmful processing byproducts. The environmental effects of our operations are therefore minimal.
Lastly, it takes thousands of years to fossilize guano, so whatever there is here today is all that we will ever see. According to the USDA, all of the fossilized seabird guano supplies are already exhausted. There are however some large reserves of fossilized bat guano left. Let’s not waste this precious resource. Use it wisely.

 

[maryjohn]

Do they blow up collapsed caves to get in?

What happens to the neighbors?

 

[VerdantGreen]

guano extraction can be eco friendly - in many cases - certainly the stuff i buy - it is extracted by local indigenous people in a sustainable way just as it has been for thousands of years. some caves get so full of guano that the bats can no longer gain access so removing some guano can actually give them back their habitat.

'fresh' guano is still years and years old - it is high in nitrogen, the fossilised stuff is high in P.

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Bat Guano

Bat Guano

Microbeman

My favorite article from the site you linked to, i.e. Archipelago Bat Guano, is the one titled Is “0-20-0” phosphate bat guano 3 times better than “0-7-0” bat guano?

From the article:

Maybe, but not likely. Plants require the proper balance of 16 nutrients for life. The three soil-derived nutrients that are needed in the greatest quantity are nitrogen (N), phosphorous (P) and potassium (K). Most States require fertilizers to state the percentage of these nutrients on the front of the package with three numbers. They always list them in the order N-P-K, and the values indicate the weight-percentage of that nutrient present in the fertilizer. If any other nutrients are present, they are usually listed elsewhere on the package. State law may require that a minimum amount of a nutrient must be present before its content can be claimed. Usually, this minimum is 1% for N-P-K.

Of the three main nutrients, ABG phosphate contains only phosphorous in significant amounts. Thus, it is a 0-7-0 fertilizer. But what does the “7” mean? It theoretically means that at least 7% of the fertilizer is phosphate that is in a form that is immediately available to your plants. But there is no universal truth here. We actually get available phosphate numbers from different labs that range from 1 to 20%. For example, in Florida, where unique methods are used, lab results dictate that we would have to label our product as 0-1-0. On the other extreme, a different lab consistently finds that the product has 15-20% available phosphate. Other lab results run the entire range between the two. After a lot of testing by private and State labs, we decided on 0-7-0 as a safe number.

As a comprehensive United Nations-sponsored report addresses this problem in detail. That report states that part of the problem with the testing for available phosphate on rock phosphate and similar materials is that the tests are more qualitative than quantitative. The U.N. provides that the slightest variation on the method can result in great variability of the results. The U.N. report also states that when a natural substance contains a moderate amount of free calcite (up to 10%), the accepted available phosphate tests will under-report the phosphate because the relatively soluble calcite will consume the weak reagent before it has a chance to attack the less soluble phosphate-bearing minerals. Given the general findings of the U.N. report, and the independent laboratory’s finding that ABG Phosphate contains 10% free calcite, it appears possible that the available phosphate content of ABG Phosphate may be underestimated.

Because of all of these problems with available phosphate tests, we believe the more reliable test is one that actually measures plant uptake of phosphorous. Under such tests, performed by an independent laboratory, it was found that plants will take up 12% phosphate from ABG Phosphate over the course of a growing season. But that does not mean it is the same as a 0-12-0 fertilizer because ABG Phosphate may be releasing 7% immediately and the remaining 5% over the course of the season. Conversely, a true 0-12-0 fertilizer would release its whole 12% at once. Thus, for labeling purposes, ABG Phosphate is a 0-7-0 fertilizer, but for annual application rate purposes, it should be applied as a 0-12-0 fertilizer.

We are not trying to be critical of the fertilizer laws. They are there for your protection and that is a very good thing, if you understand them. As a company that is conservative in claiming available phosphate, our self-serving point here is that of phosphate-only bat guanos that you might see on the market, there may be little difference between those labeled as 0-1-0 to 0-20-0, other than which lab analyzes the product, what body of laws governs their labels, and how gutsy companies are when choosing a guaranteed minimum on their package. For example, just with our own product, one customer who repackages the material under its own brand name told us that they sell their product as 0-7-0 in most states, but as 0-0.7-0 in Florida. On the other hand, in jurisdictions that only consider total phosphate, ABG Phosphate could safely be sold as a 0-20-0 fertilizer.

But this only addresses the bat guano products. What about the water soluble phosphate (WSP) products with numbers ranging up to at least 50% phosphate? It is reported that after application, WSP stays in a form that is available to plants for only a certain amount of time, and plants can only take up only so much phosphate at a time (we will add references for this later). Given the widespread problem of phosphate pollution in the nation’s water ways, it appears that much of this phosphate just washes away with the soil. Because of this, some communities in the U.S. now strictly regulate phosphate use, even for home owners.

You can only imagine the number of 'arguments' found on cannabis grow sites arguing the benefits of a specific 'bat guano' from this or that source because of the so-called N-P-K number of 'Indonesian Bat Guano' vs. 'Jamaican Bat Guano' referencing these numbers.

CC

 

[cosmiccowboy]

Microbeman

My favorite article from the site you linked to, i.e. Archipelago Bat Guano, is the one titled Is “0-20-0” phosphate bat guano 3 times better than “0-7-0” bat guano?

From the article:

You can only imagine the number of 'arguments' found on cannabis grow sites arguing the benefits of a specific 'bat guano' from this or that source because of the so-called N-P-K number of 'Indonesian Bat Guano' vs. 'Jamaican Bat Guano' referencing these numbers.

CC

sounds like theyre just guessin...thats why experience with whatever material yer workin with with means everything..whether its a loaf of bread oir a sack of rubbers,either it works or it dont....they can find a loophole to label anything however they see fit...its all about money and all them good for nothins in washington are a bunch of crooks...

 

[Microbeman]

Clackamas; It's worse than junk bonds. Some days I go stark raving mad trying to justify the rampant human refusal to see the apparent reality.

Verdant; According to Malcolm Beck it appears the bat guano (or actually beetle guano) is sucked down to the bone every season and on top of that the beetles are only given 2 weeks to do their job (if I gave my worms 2 weeks to digest, I'd be tarred and feathered)
http://www.malcolmbeck.com/articles/HarvestingBatGuano.htm
As you have inferred not all bat guano is harvested the same.

 

[Microbeman]

So, since bats have probably been doing their thing for millions of years (or thousands for Christians) is there some historic evidence of bat caves that were so full of poo that the bats had abandoned the caves prior to horticulture and us humans cleaning up for them?
<BIG GRIN>

 

[Clackamas Coot]

Clackamas; It's worse than junk bonds. Some days I go stark raving mad trying to justify the rampant human refusal to see the apparent reality.

Microbeman

No sh*t! Before I began reading your and CT Guy's posts I purchased a 25-lb. tub of the Archipelago Bat Guano and it was cheap compared to the prices charged at the grow stores. 25-lbs. was $27.00 and they loaded it for me in the bed of my farm truck.

I still have at least 24 lbs. left and I've decided to compost it as this is probably the best way to get something beneficial from my knee-jerk purchase.

BTW - what is your opinion on using organic fish bone meal (5-16-0). It's only $26.00 per 50-lb. bag. I was thinking of adding it to my seed meal mix (canola, cottonseed, alfalfa, linseed & soybean meal - all organic) in an equal amount, i.e. 1 part of each?

BTW - I met the owner of Yelm's Worm Farms a couple of weeks ago and we talked about your work. He's a very nice gentleman and invited us up to his operation to see how things work. I thought it would be educational as well as informative.

CC

 

[Clackamas Coot]

So, since bats have probably been doing their thing for millions of years (or thousands for Christians) is there some historic evidence of bat caves that were so full of poo that the bats had abandoned the caves prior to horticulture and us humans cleaning up for them?
<BIG GRIN>

Well - one 'bat cave' that got a bit crowded was the one that Bat Man and Robin operated out of.

That's what Marvel Comics told me anyway.

CC

 

[Microbeman]

Microbeman

No sh*t! Before I began reading your and CT Guy's posts I purchased a 25-lb. tub of the Archipelago Bat Guano and it was cheap compared to the prices charged at the grow stores. 25-lbs. was $27.00 and they loaded it for me in the bed of my farm truck.

I still have at least 24 lbs. left and I've decided to compost it as this is probably the best way to get something beneficial from my knee-jerk purchase.

BTW - what is your opinion on using organic fish bone meal (5-16-0). It's only $26.00 per 50-lb. bag. I was thinking of adding it to my seed meal mix (canola, cottonseed, alfalfa, linseed & soybean meal - all organic) in an equal amount, i.e. 1 part of each?

BTW - I met the owner of Yelm's Worm Farms a couple of weeks ago and we talked about your work. He's a very nice gentleman and invited us up to his operation to see how things work. I thought it would be educational as well as informative.

CC

Sorry, no experience with the fishbone meal. Try it and let me know. Even though there are a lot of less than optimum products out there, I am an advocat for using what is available and inexpensive (outside of chems)

I really like the guys at Yelm. Was it Kelan you spoke to?

 

[Clackamas Coot]

I really like the guys at Yelm. Was it Kelan you spoke to?

Yes - I checked the business card that he gave me. He had a booth at the nursery stock show and his products were well received from what I could tell.

In years past there was absolutely NO exhibitors showing humates, compost teas, organic methods because the nursery stock is 99% chemical fertilizers sadly enough. Something was definitely different this year with over 5 compost tea manufacturers (Growing Solutions as an example) and the number of products containing either 'humates' or 'beneficial microbes' was extensive.

Maybe things will get better if for no other reason than the employees (generally undocumented workers from Mexico and Central AMerica) will be healthier.

CC